Jet2 Sector Pay?
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Important message to Cabin Crew
There's a rumour floating around that Friday's meeting is mainly for pilots, and that cabin crew will be represented by your local supervisors. This is not correct - as many of you as possible need to be there!
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Balpa is in-effective and expensive. Give yourselves a 1% pay cut to join. Teaming up with cabin crew in the same union can only strengthen our position as a united workforce.
The Company Council are the team that negotiate with management if you have a Recognition Agreement. The Company Council is made up of elected members who all serve as line pilots within said airline.
If they don't have much support then they cannot negotiate very effectively and hence the misconception that "Balpa" are toothless. Your previous experiences may have been of a toothless CC, BUT, did you and your colleagues give them the mandate they need to be effective? If not then it is no surprise when they come back with a recommendation to accept some derisory company offer; they can't advise you to reject an offer if you don't give them the mandate to go back to the table to negotiate a better offer. They MUST have the "big stick" held in reserve to be effective. If they were completely ineffective, then perhaps you could have voted them out or perhaps even stood for election yourself?
The so called "decent" airlines have better terms and conditions through a strong membership of Balpa (as has been said, no other union has represented a pilot body in the UK with any effect). This gives the mandate to the CC to negotiate the best deal possible. Balpa is "you", not some caged tiger that gets wheeled out when a few of you get unhappy about conditions. Background Balpa offers the support to CCs and individual pilots by way of Financial and Legal services etc.
As for joining with cabin crew, again I have to agree that you are putting yourselves at a disadvantage. Management will always be looking to give something only in return for something. I can see the pilots in Jet2 constantly being under pressure to 'give' in order for cabin crew to 'receive'. One will be played off against the other. Much better for both to be represented separately and negotiate individually for better conditions.
As for "giving yourself a 1% paycut" by joining Balpa, that has to be the most short-sighted view possible. If you join and get nothing (and incidently, it's NOT 1% for new joiners for the first few years) then sure it has cost you. BUT, if you join in sufficient numbers, give your CC a negotiating mandate and they negotiate ANYTHING more than (maximum membership fee) 1% better on your Sector Pay and basic salary then by my book you are better off. You get nowt for nowt in this world, so invest in your futures.
I work in the same sector where we have 90% membership of Balpa. Over the years our CC have consistently negotiated pay rises which more than cover the membership fee, plus many other lifestyle enhancing deals. "Balpa" are only as strong as the collective group....Easyjet pilots are realising this and have mobilised in significant numbers and now have given their CC the mandate to go back to the negotiating table and ask for more....
Good luck to you all in Jet2, the issues affect all our industry terms and conditions, not just yours.
PP
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TGWU
With the T&G we get everything Pilot Pete admires for £9.32 a month, not 1%
The issues involved are not exclusive to airlines, therefore we don't need an expensive and exclusive choice of union (balpa).It's an old battle fought many times over already. There are plenty of us 'in house' who have some experience in this area already.
The issues involved are not exclusive to airlines, therefore we don't need an expensive and exclusive choice of union (balpa).It's an old battle fought many times over already. There are plenty of us 'in house' who have some experience in this area already.
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Mtg Friday?
Just a quick question.
How were we informed of this meeting? - I have had nothing to let me know.
Then again, I've been off for a while - (Shock related stress dissorder ;-) )
How were we informed of this meeting? - I have had nothing to let me know.
Then again, I've been off for a while - (Shock related stress dissorder ;-) )
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Sorry guys but you have a problem with what most companies would regard as the normal employer/employee relationship. Normally a person is employed & for the work done they receive a payment, i.e., salary. If either side is not happy about the existing relationship then they can give notice to terminate the contract.
Your particular problem, in any pay negotiations of any sort, is that the above arrangement does not apply to Jet2. You have both captains (yes captains as well as first offiers) and first officers who have paid for their ratings and are subsequently in debt, via the company, to the tune of many thousands of pounds. Therefore the financial penalty for that person to quit is greater than receiving the pathetic and insulting offer that you have been asked to accept.
Now, I have recently flown with a number of blokes who have various degrees of experience on jet types other than the 737 or 757, e.g., Fokker 100, BAe 146, ex military, etc. etc. who have been offered but turned down employmewnt with Jet2. The reason: they were all being asked to pay for their own ratings (please remember that I am talking captains as well as first offiers and all experienced). When they, in my opinion quite rightly, told N.H. and R.L. to stuff their rotten 'job' offer, they were told that Jet2 charge for ratings because otherwise they wouldn't be able to compete with the other locos!
If this is true then you have two major problems in achieving a decent settlement. 1) The company simply does not have the money to pay you any extra whoever & however you choose to negotiate. 2) As you have altered the above mentioned employer/employee relationship you are part of the funding for Jet2. They have stated it, "we cannot compete with the other locos unless we charge our employees." As most reasonably experienced pilots now have other options than to pay for ratings with a bottom feeding outfit this source of revenue into the company has dryed up. They will have to claw it back from somewhere. Can you guess?
Good luck for tomorrow to all of the pilots flying for Jet2 who give a damn about standards, I mean it.
Your particular problem, in any pay negotiations of any sort, is that the above arrangement does not apply to Jet2. You have both captains (yes captains as well as first offiers) and first officers who have paid for their ratings and are subsequently in debt, via the company, to the tune of many thousands of pounds. Therefore the financial penalty for that person to quit is greater than receiving the pathetic and insulting offer that you have been asked to accept.
Now, I have recently flown with a number of blokes who have various degrees of experience on jet types other than the 737 or 757, e.g., Fokker 100, BAe 146, ex military, etc. etc. who have been offered but turned down employmewnt with Jet2. The reason: they were all being asked to pay for their own ratings (please remember that I am talking captains as well as first offiers and all experienced). When they, in my opinion quite rightly, told N.H. and R.L. to stuff their rotten 'job' offer, they were told that Jet2 charge for ratings because otherwise they wouldn't be able to compete with the other locos!
If this is true then you have two major problems in achieving a decent settlement. 1) The company simply does not have the money to pay you any extra whoever & however you choose to negotiate. 2) As you have altered the above mentioned employer/employee relationship you are part of the funding for Jet2. They have stated it, "we cannot compete with the other locos unless we charge our employees." As most reasonably experienced pilots now have other options than to pay for ratings with a bottom feeding outfit this source of revenue into the company has dryed up. They will have to claw it back from somewhere. Can you guess?
Good luck for tomorrow to all of the pilots flying for Jet2 who give a damn about standards, I mean it.
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Oddskipper,
There are notices in the Manchester crewroom (and maybe elsewhere) re Friday's meeting. Nothing in the post or in the Advisory. Might be worth bringing your ID bearing in mind that the whole world knows about it and might turn up (not a criticism, Silverhawk).
Silverhawk,
I've resigned from BALPA twice over the years so I won't be joining again, and they probably wouldn't have me anyway. I already belong to the IPA/IPF - you have obviously discounted them, and I think I can understand why, but it might help us all if you could spell it out.
Re the T&G, £10 per month is fine with me but would they be interested in us? I can see positive advantages in having pilots and cabin crew under one roof, despite the supposed weaknesses identified above.
There are notices in the Manchester crewroom (and maybe elsewhere) re Friday's meeting. Nothing in the post or in the Advisory. Might be worth bringing your ID bearing in mind that the whole world knows about it and might turn up (not a criticism, Silverhawk).
Originally Posted by silverhawk
Meeting is 1230 local, Crowne Plaza. All welcome to attend. Attend if you can.
I've resigned from BALPA twice over the years so I won't be joining again, and they probably wouldn't have me anyway. I already belong to the IPA/IPF - you have obviously discounted them, and I think I can understand why, but it might help us all if you could spell it out.
Re the T&G, £10 per month is fine with me but would they be interested in us? I can see positive advantages in having pilots and cabin crew under one roof, despite the supposed weaknesses identified above.
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T&G
Originally Posted by pilothouse
Re the T&G, £10 per month is fine with me but would they be interested in us? I can see positive advantages in having pilots and cabin crew under one roof, despite the supposed weaknesses identified above.
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BALPA subscriptions are 0.5% of salary for the first year. For a Captain on £62k a year that is £310 per annum.
But 67% of BALPA subscriptions are tax deductible, so 67% of annual subscription, £207.70 gets added to your tax code; i.e. the amount you are allowed to earn before taxation starts.
That leaves an annual subscription of £102.30, or £8.53 a month.
BALPA is only as strong as the company council whose interests it represents. All BALPA supply is free advice, legal and otherwise, and a Principal Negotiator. A Principal Negotiator is a person assigned to the company. Their job is to offer guidance to the company council and undertake negotiations on their behalf.
IPF and TGWU are non-starters. They don’t have the experience or track record, ay least in Airlines in the TGWU’s case. BALPA are not perfect, but are the only realistic option.
But 67% of BALPA subscriptions are tax deductible, so 67% of annual subscription, £207.70 gets added to your tax code; i.e. the amount you are allowed to earn before taxation starts.
That leaves an annual subscription of £102.30, or £8.53 a month.
BALPA is only as strong as the company council whose interests it represents. All BALPA supply is free advice, legal and otherwise, and a Principal Negotiator. A Principal Negotiator is a person assigned to the company. Their job is to offer guidance to the company council and undertake negotiations on their behalf.
IPF and TGWU are non-starters. They don’t have the experience or track record, ay least in Airlines in the TGWU’s case. BALPA are not perfect, but are the only realistic option.
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Read on the 'Dual basing' thread there might be a "small tweak" to the sector pay in two weeks.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you guys and girls.
Also, its not necessarily what BALPA do, but what they MIGHT do. BALPA is a great negotiating tool when dealing with management on an individual basis.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you guys and girls.
Also, its not necessarily what BALPA do, but what they MIGHT do. BALPA is a great negotiating tool when dealing with management on an individual basis.
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My mate just texted me to say the sector pay has indeed been 'tweaked'.
Now there are 3 sector lengths, first sector still is 2 quid for f/o, with the addition of a 'middle' sector length which, wait for it.... pays £2.50... woopee doo...
Hardly any routes fall into the 'middle' sector length category, so again your management have
you good and proper.
Still think you can get a deal without Balpa? Dream on you dreamers
Now there are 3 sector lengths, first sector still is 2 quid for f/o, with the addition of a 'middle' sector length which, wait for it.... pays £2.50... woopee doo...
Hardly any routes fall into the 'middle' sector length category, so again your management have
you good and proper.Still think you can get a deal without Balpa? Dream on you dreamers
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Originally Posted by silverhawk
With the T&G we get everything Pilot Pete admires for £9.32 a month, not 1%
Originally Posted by maat
BALPA subscriptions are 0.5% of salary for the first year. For a Captain on £62k a year that is £310 per annum.
But 67% of BALPA subscriptions are tax deductible, so 67% of annual subscription, £207.70 gets added to your tax code; i.e. the amount you are allowed to earn before taxation starts.
That leaves an annual subscription of £102.30, or £8.53 a month.
But 67% of BALPA subscriptions are tax deductible, so 67% of annual subscription, £207.70 gets added to your tax code; i.e. the amount you are allowed to earn before taxation starts.
That leaves an annual subscription of £102.30, or £8.53 a month.
Again, I wish you all well.
PP
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Yes I care to comment.
As you've said the figures quoted are for year One. Very different reading after that.
I've been involved been Balpa in the past with an outfit that was not BA. Balpa had a chance to make a substantial difference but chose to decline because they would not have been sure of the outcome and their exposure to expense. SPINELESS.
Dividing the cabin crew from the flight deck is exactly what management want to see. The more you divide, the more you are able to conquer.
Yes, I agree the new proposition, and that is all it is, is pretty poor. Only because no-one was involved in negotiations. Now we are almost organised next year's arrangements will be more beneficial to the crew and accountable to the company.
As you've said the figures quoted are for year One. Very different reading after that.
I've been involved been Balpa in the past with an outfit that was not BA. Balpa had a chance to make a substantial difference but chose to decline because they would not have been sure of the outcome and their exposure to expense. SPINELESS.
Dividing the cabin crew from the flight deck is exactly what management want to see. The more you divide, the more you are able to conquer.
Yes, I agree the new proposition, and that is all it is, is pretty poor. Only because no-one was involved in negotiations. Now we are almost organised next year's arrangements will be more beneficial to the crew and accountable to the company.
Last edited by silverhawk; 21st Apr 2006 at 05:37.
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Balpa had a chance to make a substantial difference but chose to decline because they would not have been sure of the outcome and their exposure to expense.
PP
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I am quite astounded by the revised pay given to us by management; I am also equally astounded at the response from the staff.
There was a lot of big talk on here a few weeks ago about ‘let’s unite and sort this out’, ‘I’ll get onto Danny and try and sort out a private forum for us all’. But a few shallow words at the meeting has put a stop to all that. We even applauded the man.
The sooner we all realise that its time to join Balpa the better, Easyjet have just received a 10% stepped pay rise which in effect means that we are falling even further behind our nearest rivals in respect of T&C’s. The management have once again sold us a fast one.
SEER posted:-
Still think you can get a deal without Balpa? Dream on you dreamers
How right he is, we are (myself included) a set of spineless weak dreamers who are just going to bend over and take time and time again. They have us boys and girls and they know it.
There was a lot of big talk on here a few weeks ago about ‘let’s unite and sort this out’, ‘I’ll get onto Danny and try and sort out a private forum for us all’. But a few shallow words at the meeting has put a stop to all that. We even applauded the man.
The sooner we all realise that its time to join Balpa the better, Easyjet have just received a 10% stepped pay rise which in effect means that we are falling even further behind our nearest rivals in respect of T&C’s. The management have once again sold us a fast one.
SEER posted:-
Still think you can get a deal without Balpa? Dream on you dreamers
How right he is, we are (myself included) a set of spineless weak dreamers who are just going to bend over and take time and time again. They have us boys and girls and they know it.
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Ardacre
Waiting for a response from pprune admin regarding dedicated forum.
Union membership is steadily increasing with T&G. Nothing happens instantly. Instead of whinging on here play your part in the real world and join up.
The only way to avoid the same thing happening over and over again is to get organised. Forget what has just been done, we are as much to blame for allowing ourselves to be the victims.
Union membership is steadily increasing with T&G. Nothing happens instantly. Instead of whinging on here play your part in the real world and join up.
The only way to avoid the same thing happening over and over again is to get organised. Forget what has just been done, we are as much to blame for allowing ourselves to be the victims.
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I'm already in Balpa and am willing to join the TGWU, My point is that nothings going to change, the company has a history of this type of conduct towards its staff.
The management need a massive wake up call but it will take a herculean effort for us to achieve this. I don't think many have this kind of resolve because a lot of people are grateful for what Meeson and his team have provided them with.
Maybe its best to spend the subscriptions on paper and ink for Cv's because I believe things will never change. History proves this.
The management need a massive wake up call but it will take a herculean effort for us to achieve this. I don't think many have this kind of resolve because a lot of people are grateful for what Meeson and his team have provided them with.
Maybe its best to spend the subscriptions on paper and ink for Cv's because I believe things will never change. History proves this.