Self Funded Type Ratings

[On speed on profile]

Hello all those fighters out there.

After tearing my hair out in other forums, can someone please enlighten me as to BALPA's response to the growing number of self funded type ratings.

I know its been asked or stated before and I know they are galantly fighting against numerous pension decreases and erosion of various company T & C's but are they tackling this growing problem in conjuction with their ongoing fights. I think the Self Funded Type Ratings issue directly relates to this.

I am not bashing BALPA!!! The reason I ask is this.....

Pilots who are desperate enough to buy a Type Rating, Especially wannabee pilots, are never going to be the types that we can rely on in the future when it comes to trying to up hold or T&C's and pensions with solidarity. They have already proved this by selling us all short and trying to jump the que. If more and more of them do it, BALPA will have less and less say,less and less support as a proportion of the total pilot body and then the members amongst us are totally screwed not to mention all the pilots who fly commercially and want to make a living out of it!

If BALPA isnt doing anything yet, what can I do to help?

Cheers all,

OSOP.

[Digitalis]

Have you joined BALPA? If you have, ask them. If you haven't, why not?

[Empty Cruise]

BALPA does not care at all about companies where you pay your own TR. Try IALPA instead.

Empty

[On speed on profile]

Digitalis, point taken. I am a BALPA member and I will ask in due course! Just thought the info would be on here without having to hassel BALPA too much. They are already working hard for us as it is!

Empty Cruise, care to elaborate please.

Thanks,

OSOP

[Empty Cruise]

Unless your company has an elected BALPA rep and a BALPA recognised union, there is very little that BALPA can do.

If you're talking about affecting the policies in the industry on a wider scale - well, that's not exactly what BALPA spend most of their time dealing with. Just look at FR et al - they hardly even recognise their own pilots' elected representatives (see REPA) - so what kind of sway should BALPA hold over their hiring policies?

When you speak of people "jumping the queue" - well, if it makes more financial sense to an airline to take on people without experience & make every flight a training flight - then I'm not sure BALPA (or anybody else, for the matter) will be able to dissuade them from doing what they see as the right thing. Not all airlines follow this policy and prefer to take on experienced people only, and I'm sure that they have done the numbers as well and see that as the most advantageous thing to do. If a particular airlines hiring policy does not fit our wiev of the world, we can simply refrain from applying to said company & thereby deny them our services. It's called voting with your feet. And last time I checked, there was no queue outside the airlines (or inside some, for the matter)....

What would you suggest BALPA (or anybody else, now that I think of it) do? Impose an employment ban for all its members with airlines that do SSTR? And if they did so, do you think that would increase or decrease BALPAs influence over said companies?

Just a thougt...
Empty

[On speed on profile]

Empty Cruise,

It is a generally accepted view that paying for type ratings has an influence on our T's and C's as it gives companies the chance to employ less experienced pilots which in turn are going to get paid lower and lower wages. As BALPA are fighting the never ending battle against lower T & C's and rubbish pensions, shouldnt it start at the root of the problem in conjunction with its present fights?

While I appreciate and agree with everything you say, I am wanting to know what BALPA and others think we should do about increasing/securing T & C's with direct relevance to this subject.

Maybe a recruitment ban is the only answer! I dont know!
If it is then I hold my hand up and ask for that to be.

It would certainly mean that all the pilots flying for a SSTR company would not be covered by BALPA if they were to have an incident/accident and they would then only have themselves to blame for there own reducing terms and conditions. Maybe it would mean that we could restrict SSTR to a few airlines or maybe even phase them out completely.

I for one do not want to fly without union knowledge and support backing me up,especially in todays market where some companies will not hesitate to fling the blame at their pilots for everything but the most minor of incidents. Maybe we should have a recruitment ban. I just think it should be tackled as a problem in conjunction with the other issues BALPA currently deals with and as such I posted it here to gauge other peoples thoughts. This is going to be a bigger problem in the future than just people jumping the que!

Cheers,

OSOP

[ryanride]

Maybe a recruitment ban is the only answer! I dont know!

Its the only answer to this escalating problem. I see BALPA on their website have information on 'How to become a Airline Pilot' for young people cosidering going for a pilot as a career. In this document they dont mention anything about Type Ratings after you finish your ATPL integrated training and seem to think that you should get a job with an airline straight away. Maybe they should be advising people to go the hard way and gain experience first for a while so they can protect T & C's for its current members.

They willl have to change this information soon and start taking proper action to protect their members.

[FlapsOne]

As long as people are prepared to pay for ratings, companies will continue to charge for them, no matter what any union in the land does.

It will always be a losing battle to get pilots already in a company to fight a battle for pilots that are yet to join.

I really wish it were not true, but it is!

[On speed on profile]

Flaps one.

While I believe your first statement to be true, I believe your second one should be the other way around.

If a new pilot wants to shaft him/herself by getting a TR then thats his/her problem. But if the pilots in the company dont do anything about it. That new pilot will take their job, for less and the Ts and Cs will never recover for that company pilot.

By penalising those pilots that buy type ratings and line training, you 'help' them to see that what they are doing erodes the members T's and C's. If a pilot has no union back up (which is essential insurance in todays market) and something goes wrong then maybe the majority might think twice before putting themselves in the same situation?

Ultimately, BALPA are there to look after those that support it. I think by banning pilots who pay outright for speculative TR's and line training could be a way forward. The question is, what can we do to stem the tide? It seems to me like the tide is just getting bigger!

OSOP

[Flopsie]

On speed on profile

My friend, you are on to a loser here. You might as well stop bashing your head against a brick wall and accept that SSTRs will be offered by FTOs and accepted by customers, at least for the foreseeable future. And forget about any recruitment bans - it will never happen...

Furthermore, do not confuse a SSTR with inexperienced pilots - I know of several very experienced pilots who have paid for a TR simply to enhance their chances of getting a job in a very competitive market.

[Dirty Harry 76]

Multi Pilot Licence

What about the introduction of the new Multi Pilot Licence in the near future. All new Pilots will have a Type Rating and no hours on type.

How do you deal with that one.

[Pizzaro]

Which other industry would shaft itself so much ??? If you're RICH enough then you can become a pilot !!!! Bring on the revolution !!!

[Wingswinger]

..or join Auntie Betty's Flying Club for a few years. It's great fun!

[On speed on profile]

Flopsie,

With the utmost respect, if enough of us bash our heads against the brick wall, it will fall over. If I am the only one who does it, then it wont. I would very much like to see the brick wall fall over and I know many others here that do as well.

My point is that we should penalise the pilots who are accepting these terms and conditions. If a pilot can not get BALPA or any other support because he decided to undercut his fellow colleagues, then why should my BALPA membership fees go to support him in a case against his airline or in court fees when he prangs a company jet.

I have said it before, in todays age, most pilots would agree that having a bit of security when it comes to employment issues is a good thing. Take that away from the offenders and watch a few of them crumple and the message starts to get through!

This is a big part of the fight that BALPA currently has when it comes to maintaining and bettering Ts and C's!

Just for clarity, SSTR and Buying a TR are exactly the same! I have said this before as well. I see no problem with being bonded. Accepting a bond where you dont outlay any cost is perfectly acceptable, why would a company take a risk on you if they knew you would leave after 3 months, they would go bust in days if they did! Taking a personal loan is not an acceptable way. If we can reintroduce bonding as the only suitable way, companies will be forced to recruit those they know are more likely to "pass the test" and your experienced pilot who is currently having to BUY A SSTR will be judged on his merit and ability and given a bond accordingly!

OSOP

[Decisive Attitude]

Accepting a bond where you dont outlay any cost is perfectly acceptable, why would a company take a risk on you if they knew you would leave after 3 months, they would go bust in days if they did! Taking a personal loan is not an acceptable way. If we can reintroduce bonding as the only suitable way, companies will be forced to recruit those they know are more likely to "pass the test"...

I'm no fan of new low-houred guys funding their own type ratings to get into the market.

However I am under the impression that the 'bond' is not legally enforceable (at least in the UK) which is why it has been dumped by some airlines. So I'm not sure if this is really a feasible way to push the issue. Maybe one of the legal-eagles that frequent the site could pass comment...

I think the point was that if one left while still bonded one had to dip their hands into their own pocket and give the company some money. It only takes a few early leavers to say "naff off I ain't giving you a penny" and for the company to find out that the bond isn't [legally] worth the paper it's written on for them to suddenly see it as a wholly unacceptable method of covering their costs (given that it just doesn't work). In todays era of incredibly tight margins and cut-throat competition, passing this off as a 'cost of doing business' simply won't wash with company accountants or shareholders alike.

I'm not saying that I agree with it but I gather this is why the new modus operandi took a hold; the new guys take out loans and give the cash to the company, who then pays them back over 3/4/5 years. At least that way, the company already has their money, thereby making it less likely that a new pilot will walk away early.

[Flopsie]

Originally Posted by On speed on profile

Flopsie,

With the utmost respect, if enough of us bash our heads against the brick wall, it will fall over. If I am the only one who does it, then it wont. I would very much like to see the brick wall fall over and I know many others here that do as well.

Well my friend, carry on but trust me, you are wasting your time because I can guarantee that the brick wall will NOT fall over. The subject has been thrashed to death many times before and the situation has not changed and for the foreseeable future, it will remain so.

[fly-half]

How about my situation? As an ab-initio, I had to pay for my type-rating but it is currently being paid back to me over the term of my contract which is less than two years long. By doing things this way, the airline put more of the risk on me during my type-rating and line training. I expect they could have found type-rated pilots elsewhere in the industry but by taking on a group of ab-initios, they were giving a group of 'newbies' a chance but without taking on most of the risk.

It took me a long long time to get my job so certainly don't think of myself as jumping any 'queue' (note correct spelling). It is interesting how the British culture we are used to leads us to expect pilots to go through a 'passage of rights' and suffer for a while before being successful. Is a pilot who gets their success early somehow less deserving than someone who doesn't?

I did not pay for my type-raing out of desperation for a job and to beat anyone else to the post. I appreciated that I was going to work for a relatively small jet airliner operator who was just trying to minimise the 'risk' to their training costs. As already mentioned, these costs are being repaid to me over time.

Incidentally, I was the only person in my intake to be a member of BALPA. Naturally, I encouraged the others to join.

[Jet2]

Decisive Attitude ..... Totally agree, well said. Maybe the solution is to make bonds legally enforceable! Seems fair as you can't blame the airlines for protecting their investment.

[Poontang Luva]

OH FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD STOP CRYIN AND WHINGING! BOO HOO MY PENSION IS GETTIN ROGERED! I'VE NO BALLS TO CHLLENGE MY COMPANY I'LL BLAME THE NEW KID! GRRRR!

Unfortunately SSTR's are a fairly standard practise and its only going to be more common place.

I'm sure 99% of those who've bought a TR would rather have been bonded for 4 or 5 yrs as your probably gonna stay with the airline that long anyway and you dont have to fork out £25k! But then airlines dont really seem to be offering those with no airline time that option... Even to get a job on a shorts, dash 8, F50 or other 'entry level' jobs you have to pay up to £15k.

Cant you see this is a direct result of the low cost sector (I dont recall self sponsored TR being commonplace before EZ and FR showed up, and lets not forget 9/11, curent oil prices)? The rules have changed. Airlines have had to adapt and save (otherwise we'll all be out of a job) where ever they can to compete and pilots are getting shafted. Then again they could be just saying that to make us bend over and take it a little deeper....

I find it funny though that people expect newbies to care about their older and 'wiser' (quite possibly sponsored) collegues T&C's. A lot have forked out over £60k for training, sent a million CV's and got jack. Plenty aren't low timers either, with some having extensive air taxi and instructing backgrounds. No recruiter gives a monkey's unless you worked 2 crew and flown EFIS etc, so one has to do what one has to do.

Do the older and wiser pilots who expect newbies to care about them do anything to help out the little guy? Has someone started a non-profit organisation that tests fATPL pilots. Where active line pilots volunteer to interview them, put them through a bunch of tests and sim checks, at the canditates expense. If they pass they get an industry recognised stamp of approval that this person, to any future employer would be of little risk and is of sound aptitude. Their CV's could automatically be forwarded to airlines through this organisaton. Or airlines come to them. ie) "Hey we need 10 pilots pronto" "OK Mr Airline man these are our 10 candidates next in the queue. I'm sure you wont be deissapointed" You see this organisation refuses to recommend so called 'top' candidates (those that excel above others). If u pass you pass, no points system where one is 'better than another', you get put in a queue, seniority if you will, and they get recommended that way. Its fair and no queue jumping. Result.

Of course nothin like this has started because once your in you dont give a $#!T about the the other guy trying to get his/her chance. You made it. Good money, good routes. Your workin pretty hard nowadays too, you wanna spend all your spare time at home (fair enough too!). Quite simply if your not willing to help them out why would they give a damn about you? Because it affects their pay scale too??? You forget, they cant get a bloody job so they're not too worried about T&Cs they dont have!!!!!!!

I suggest for all you groaners to make up a CV. Something fictional, not your own. Maybe saying you have 1000hrs outlining instructing and air taxi as your previous jobs. No Multi crew, No EFIS, No turbo prop hours. Send that CV out to as many companies you can think of. See how many replies you get. See how many will come back offering an interview on the basis that if your successful you pay for a TR. See how many come back that dont. See how long you'll be "waiting" for a job. See how long before you start thinkin a TR aint such a bad idea..........

Finally theres no point in pilots fighting each other, as pilots dont pay each others wages. Your EMPLOYER does. So instead of groaning trying to start a revolution which will fail miserably, take you future collegue who's put him/herself in dire straights financially to get qualified mind you, not just the TR, introduce them to BALPA or whatever union in your country and united stand up against your respective employer to improve your T&C's. You aint gonna get anywhere if you shun them and bicker with each other. OSOP you said this "Pilots who are desperate enough to buy a Type Rating, Especially wannabee pilots, are never going to be the types that we can rely on in the future when it comes to trying to up hold or T&C's and pensions with solidarity. They have already proved this by selling us all short and trying to jump the que" I think you might find the opposite is true. After paying so much to get the job, one will most likely want to recoup as much during their career no? After all they HAD to get a TR to get a job, something traditionally an airline payed for, something that didnt exist only a few years ago. Most importantly a lot of us pilots are money hungry (heheh) so no doubt they are too and and im sure they'd quite happily stand next to you to improve the T&C's, once they have a job of course..... Oh one final thought, if you were successful and SSTR were banned etc, dont you think Mr Airline boss will need to recoup those costs somehow now that he has to pay for every new recruits TR????? Where do you think hes gonna save the cash? And your worried about your T&C's now.....

-PL

[On speed on profile]

Not The Point Putang Luva

Decisive Attitude, While I have heard that statement about bonds not being legally enforceable. I know of a specific instance where someone was made to pay a bond back after leaving with that thought in the back of their mind. It was my old company and everyone there thought that their bonds werent legally enforceable. It probably depends on the contract. I cant see how a 'return of service' contract is not legally enforceable, thats how the airforce work and any of their pilots who go AWOL are punished severely.

Jet2 & Decisive Attitude, Maybe making bonds legally enforceable will help, if they are not already. The thing is, until we start penalising those that will buy a SSTR, it wouldnt do much good. Jet2, you are 100% correct when you say airlines should PROTECT THEIR INVESTMENT. I couldnt agree more. I would add one more thing and say that it would be beneficial as companies arent going to have to retrain pilots to company SOP's all the time whereas in a SSTR market with minimal bonding, they have no ability to retain their pilots who think the grass is greener elsewhere.

Pootang Luva,

I find it funny though that people expect newbies to care about their older and 'wiser' (quite possibly sponsored) collegues T&C's.

Just to set you straight, I am 1)Not sponsored and 2)Not an 'older or wiser' colleague that is trying to save my own lifestyle. I still have 30+ years in the industry and I dont want to work for peanuts by the time I get to retirement age. You have completely missed the point of a lot of people who care about this subject and hard as it may be for you to see, I am trying to save your own personal Ts and C's both now and in the future.

I started this thread to find out what people who care about this can do about it. I dont want to know what your opinion is, I want to know what BALPA are doing about those people that are buying SSTR's.

For this reason, I am not going to debate the merits of whether buying a type rating is right or wrong in this thread. You obviously know my opinion so why dont you read this thread: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...=213535&page=5

It has all my counter arguments if you can be bothered to read it. If you are so worried about what I am trying to achieve, then why dont you start up a thread with your own SSTR buddies about how to best maintain/improve or dare I say it, retain your Ts and Cs! Trying to belittle my aims will only harden me to try and achieve what we all want. Better Ts and C's

OSOP