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TIME TO STOP PAYING

Old 5th Mar 2006, 03:57
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Pay away, dont expect to be Spoon Fed !

I hope my input to this thread will change the minds of those who expect airlines to pay for type ratings in todays world. As regards a shortage of pilots i think Mr bermudatriangle is right to a certain degree. The shortage comprises mainly of type rated and some experienced pilots only. Why is this so ? Because there are a lot of stubborn pilots out there who are reluctant to pay for a type rating and Airlines are not paying like they used to for type ratings because they lead to higher costs.

Let me give you an example:
Ryanair is a low cost airline. Ryanair will not pay for a type rating on its B737-800 aircraft and i do not see the company every paying for type ratings for its new pilots. The same goes for other low cost operators and traditional airlines. The industry is so Competitive airlines cannot afford to pay for type ratings anymore. Some will pay for a type rating and even sponsorship but you will find yourself on poor wages for at least 5-7 years. Always read the Terms and Conditions in the Contract.

So for those of you who are reluctant to pay for a type rating i will say this: Get out and get your type rating and then you will get a job as a FO with a decent salary to start with. For those of you who just cannot afford to pay for a type rating think of ways to raise the funds to pay! Use your initiative to follow your Dream, dont sit around waiting for something to come up.



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Old 5th Mar 2006, 11:12
  #42 (permalink)  
GGV
 
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Ryanride, this is only true in the short term. In the medium term this will significantly reduce salaries for everybody. Most of the pilots entering airlines at the moment expect things to get better. That is a matter of opinion, but any argument based on
The industry is so Competitive airlines cannot afford to pay for .....
carries the obvious danger that after the words "cannot affor to pay for ...." could be added:

- a type rating
- salary during training
- full salary until the end of probation
- sector pay until....
- line training ...
- the first year of line flying
- the first two years of line flying (as in "we will give you free line training and let you accrue some hours in exchange for working here for two years")
- and so on and so forth.

Once one airline starts doing "it" for competitive reasons the others will start to follow. Your argument is based on the assumption that this problem only relates to the start of a career. The difficulty is that these problems are spreading like wildfire. At this moment, in East Midlands, sit a number of pilots awaiting training with Ryanair. Many of them have been waiting for many months. That not the bad bit; here is the bad bit - they have already paid for their type rating. But since they are not "productive" they don't get paid. This has been going on for over a year now. "Get the type rating money" = entrap the pilot. You can then use him/her when you want since unpaid pilots cost you nothing. Their debt keeps them docile and "out of sight".

With the greatest of respect, you need to do a little more thinking about the modern realities of aviation and where they might take you. You may yet see the day when it is a lot worse than paying for a first type rating.
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Old 5th Mar 2006, 12:32
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for that GGV. Very grateful you took the time to say what you said. I will say one thing it is becoming harder everday to get a job as an airline pilot and the reasons for this are with the Airlines and out of pilots control.
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Old 5th Mar 2006, 15:37
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Listen too all those poor souls crying about paying for type ratings as the only way forward in the industry. I can hear the violins playing in the background.

NOT.

You guys who pay for your type ratings make me sick. Grow a spine! You are wrecking it for all of us, including yourselves.

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Old 5th Mar 2006, 15:39
  #45 (permalink)  
superpilut
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I'd like to add, this FR situation is of course the worst.
I myself paid, and got a decent salary right away.
The idea was at that time to pay for a rating and get that amount back over a period of 2 years in the form of salary. So, yes in fact I worked 2years for free.
But at that time (1998) the only alternatives in the Netherlands were:
* Basically no direct entries anywere, unless you came from the KLM Flight Academy.
* paying (around 38000) for a EMB120 rating to fly (perhaps 20hrs p.m) for peanuts with Base airlines (now bankrupt),
* paying (around 45000) for a twin piston rating with Tulip Airlines (now bankrupt).
* paying (around 40000) for a EMB120/ATR42 rating with Air Exel (now bankrupt) and be paid peanuts as well.
* paying (around 45000 including the expenses you'll have during the stay) to fly 500 hrs in the states on that Beech 1900 with that outfit in Florida.
OR pay (35000) to get a F50 rating and be paid 50000 over a 2 year period, with the possibility to stay in the airline. That's what I did, and I'm still flying there.

Now that I see the other "deals" around, the prices don't seem "that bad" if you compare it with 8 years ago.
If I then would not have paid, I would still be without a job. So for me it paid off. But of course only, if you get a decent salary as well right from the start.

Good luck all, and I hope the majors will open the gates soon for more lowtimers.
 
Old 5th Mar 2006, 18:09
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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I think I've found a pattern in your post, Superpilut. It seems that almost every airline that was offloading training costs on employees went under. Lucky you for picking the right one.
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Old 5th Mar 2006, 18:59
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Unhappy

Some of the posts in the thread are quite sad. In order for an action to have an effect there must be solidarity, which there is apparently a lack of.

Here is to everyone whos for the bettering of this once golden, and respected industry.
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Old 5th Mar 2006, 21:10
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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B767PL,

The thing is they dont understand that what they are doing is wrong. They wont stand on our side because they are so blind to the reality.

If only if only if only!!!!

They probably also think that flying anything small and dangerous is not proper flying.

Why are they not prepared to work for their career and do their time?

Poor sad lost souls, its not their fault!!

Ooh, where is the ...... ...... toilet? Woops, too late couldnt hold it back!
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Old 6th Mar 2006, 01:09
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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I hope my input to this thread will change the minds of those who expect airlines to pay for type ratings in todays world.
Ryanride, you appear to be quoting directly from the FR script, both in this post and in your others. Lots of airlines still pay for ratings.

The shortage comprises mainly of type rated and some experienced pilots only. Why is this so ? Because there are a lot of stubborn pilots out there who are reluctant to pay for a type rating
I'm a little unclear as to implication, do enlighten me. Are you suggesting that it is a bad thing these so-called stubborn pilots don't pay for a rating?

Ryanair will not pay for a type rating on its B737-800 aircraft and i do not see the company every paying for type ratings for its new pilots
Not paying attention are you? New DE skippers aren't paying, although admittedly they are only being offered lower pay for the first couple of years.

Get out and get your type rating and then you will get a job as a FO with a decent salary to start with.
Ah that's ok then, FR are offering decent money to new FO's. Though I'm not sure they feel quite so enamoured by FR's "generosity."

I note your location is given as Casement. Thus your lack of actual Ryanair knowledge renders your contribution worthless. You may think different when it comes to your own time to hang up the brown boots. In the mean time, grow some backbone and have a little respect for your chosen profession.
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Old 6th Mar 2006, 09:05
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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CamelhAir anyone who says
I hope my input to this thread will change the minds of those who expect airlines to pay for type ratings
is either a fellow traveller or lacks sufficient wit to understand the business. Nice try at the logical approach, but we are not dealing with the full deck here - as you can see when you read that it is the pilots who are causing the pilot shortage
Why is this so ? Because there are a lot of stubborn pilots out there who are reluctant to pay for a type rating
Pray that he or she stays in the highly protected environs of EIME and never ventures out. Before they damage themselves they will undoubtedly damage several others en route. If this is a current pilot, then God help us all ....
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Old 6th Mar 2006, 14:07
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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There seems to be alot of confusion with this thread. Maybe somebody could explain the situation properly to some of our younger enthusiasts.
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Old 7th Mar 2006, 12:19
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Simple Explanation

If wannabees dont understand why they are hated so much for buying typeratings and screwing the system, I suggest they read the latest BALPA edition of 'THE LOG'. Especially the article called 'The £2 Ticket' and the section on company pensions. They then need to ask themselves, why are they having to buy jobs in the first place.

The reason why pilots are allowed to get self funded type ratings:

1. Companies have to cut costs in this low cost aviation world.

2. Self type rated pilots are too lazy and/or desperate to do the hard work and work up the chain like everyone else. Normally because they have listened to the crap given by training companies, or have not spent their money wisely.

3. Companies take advantage of this. They do it because every new self funded type rated pilot is saying to them "How far would you like me to bend over sir? I have taken yoga so I can go much further!"


What can we (pilots) do about it:

1. Stick together and have a COMMON argument. (Keep our T's & C's where they should be)

2. Dont sell each other out by buying a type rating out right! (Ie. Jumping the long que and giving the company a reason to pay you nothing!)

3. STICK TOGETHER AND HAVE A COMMON ARGUMENT! (See 1. Above)


What can wannabees do about it:

1. Have some self respect and be prepared to work hard and spend their money responsibly.

2. Work their way up the ladder, dont undercut those who are higher up the chain (unfortunately this means putting up with a year or two of rubbish pay)

3. Get to the top the RIGHT way and reap the rewards of excellent T & C's due to the fact that no one is 's tting on their own doorstep' and therefore not giving companies the ability to treat their pilots and c/c with total disrespect!!

Ryanride, you said this......
Thanks for that GGV. Very grateful you took the time to say what you said. I will say one thing it is becoming harder everday to get a job as an airline pilot and the reasons for this are with the Airlines and out of pilots control.5th March 2006 12:12


What the ....??? This is the most incorrect, ignorrant and stupid thing I have heard for a long time. New wannabee pilots are destroying our industry because they are saying to Airlines, "We will do anything to fly for you! We are prepared to fly for less and undercut our colleagues". All they have to do is have the balls, and the patience to say "I want to do this properly!, I am sorry, you will pay me what I am worth, when I have the experience to be worth it"

Its been said before and I will say it again... YOU CANT BUY EXPERIENCE! If you try, then you cant complain when the company shafts you for the privelege!!


Mods, not sure if I can post the paragraph about 'The Log'. If not can you edit it and please leave the rest of the post. Cheers.

Last edited by On speed on profile; 7th Mar 2006 at 13:49.
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Old 7th Mar 2006, 12:38
  #53 (permalink)  
GGV
 
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On speed on profile yours is a post with which I greatly sympathise. However, you quote me as saying something which you feel
is the most incorrect, ignorrant and stupid thing I have heard for a long time.
Actually I totally agree that the remarks you cite really are among
the most incorrect, ignorrant and stupid things I have heard for a long time.
But I am innocent of the charge because it was an interesting new ppruner called ryanaride that uttered the words you cite (in response to a post of mine).

I may not have much of a reputation to worry about, but .... there is a limit !!
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Old 7th Mar 2006, 12:46
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Much appreciated On speed on profile!

Thanks
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Old 7th Mar 2006, 12:51
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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I know pilots who has 3-4000 hours flying SEP as instructors and even they have to fund their own type-rating. So all the talk about working your way up the ladder is just talk from poeple who know nothing about the situation of new pilots today.

If I were to go to an airline and tell them that they would have to pay for my TR I would have been kicked out of the room. This is the truth about the market today. So what am I to do? Work as an instructor earning 900 euros per month if the weather is good that is, for 5-6 years, getting my self perhaps 2000 hours in that time and still no one is interested in paying for my TR. By that time I would be 30 years old and still out of a real job. That would make me shamed of myself.

I even know pilots who have about 1000 hours flying businessjets as well as at least another 1000 hours flying SEP even they have to fund their own TR.

So all this talk about "how far I would be bending over for a job" is very unprofessional talk from people who's educational level in language is compared to someone from first grade. Only small children talk the way you do. So act like the professionals you are!

Sure I would love to get my Type-rating for free and start flying a B200 for example or anything else with a multi-crew. But the facts are these:

1. There are a lot of new pilots
2. There are those how have money and those who do not
3. The airlines will NOT pay for a type-rating unless you have about 2000 hours in a multi-eninge jet.
4. The airlines are flooded with applications from pilots who are up to their ears in debt and need money fast in order to survive.
5. A complete pilot's education from PPL - ATPL/CPL costs at least 60'000 euro and that does not include the cost of living during the time you study.
6. Pilot schools are giving fresh pilots false hopes about the market in order to get them to spend those 60'000 E at training for a job they might not get.
7. There aren't a lot of companies out there who are flying ME TP aircraft or even MEP aircraft.
8. Those who are flying ME TP's have the same requirements as airlines flying ME Jet...

Sure I agree with all who are saying that people who fund their own TR are underminig the industry but what options do they have?

I havn't seen a single example of how one is to "work my way up the ladder" in this thread. Most is just BS from people who are angry and they have a right to be.

But for gods sake put yourself in our position. What are we to do? Clean toilets for the next 5 years until the market has such a lack of pilots that we might get a call from an airline? Face the truth, it's not going to happen.

Until I see a clear post here telling me where I could find a job that is within the frame of "working my way up the ladder" I'm not going to bother answering any stupid comments about this post...

Best Regards
/T

Last edited by Founder; 7th Mar 2006 at 13:14.
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Old 7th Mar 2006, 13:01
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Bravo Founder ! Well said.
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Old 7th Mar 2006, 13:30
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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GGV, Sorry about that mate. My fingers were 'fasting tpyer than my brain'.
Humble apologies go out to you! I have edited the offending sentence!

Founder,

Where do I start.... For a start, have some self respect and the presence of mind to say, I am going to work hard to do a job I love!

Then, I think all I have to say is this......

3-4000 hours flying SEP as instructors and even they have to fund their own type-rating.
Any instructor with 3000-4000 hours needs to ask themselves the question... Why are they a SEP instructor with 3000-4000 hours? Are they in it for the career or are they not actually good enough to move up the ladder?

The reason why a SEP instructor is having to consider buying a TR....

Cos the little baby wanabee who is too lazy to do some real flying first is "bending over already" or they just arent good enough to cut it! FACT!

Here is something for you... all my old SEP instructor friends have jobs because they were good and they are all bonded but NONE OF THEM HAD TO PAY FOR A TYPE RATING!!

Ability goes a long way my friend!!!

My old CP said he wouldnt touch SEP instructors (and some MEP instructors). Reason: (And I quote) "They havent flown an aircraft for 3000-4000 hours, just watched someone else" and in his experience, "they normally always fail a flight ability assessment."

As for your biz jet buddy, the reason he is having to fork out for a type rating is because the little baby wanabee who is too lazy to do some real flying first or the SEP instructor who is not good enough, is "bending over already".

Founder, you can criticise all my "unprofessional talk" but how about you stop and consider the unprofessionalism that is being exhibited by all the wannabees and experienced pilots (SEP instuctors with 3000-4000 hours) who dont have the necessary skill level to get to the top without buying their own type rating. They are jumping the que of people who deserve the job and have the ability and the most experience. This gives companies a chance to lower the entry level pay (and eventually the whole comapny T&C's) to "however far one can bend"

There is no need or excuse for buying a type rating. A company bond for an adequately qualified and experienced pilot is the only acceptable way of recruiting a pilot. You can not expect a company to have to foot the bill of a pilots training only for him to leave 3 months later. Neither should a company expect a pilot to sell himself short.

You have asked what should a wanabee do.....

Here it is. Work hard, do you homework and dont be lazy. Get some real HANDS on flying, and then move up the ladder when it is your turn.

Tow gliders, teach aerobatics, become an instructor (but maintain your stick and rudder skills) or fly jump planes. GET AND KEEP YOUR HANDS ON THE CONTROLS. If you are smart enough and motivated enough, you will be to work it out.

Founder, you know nothing of the situation today, neither do your colleauges who buy TYPE RATINGS. The situation is this....

IF THEY BUY A TYPE RATING, IT IS AN INDERECT WAY OF SAYING TO THE COMPANY, I WILL DO ANYTHING FOR A JOB AND THEREFORE EXPECT TO GET PAID NOTHING.
GETTING PAID NOTHING MEANS THIS: NO LIFE, NO HOUSE, PROBABLY NO WIFE, NO LIFE, NO PENSION and lastly NO FUN OR QUALITY OF LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Founder, stop whingeing and open your eyes to the reality!!

Last edited by On speed on profile; 7th Mar 2006 at 13:50.
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Old 7th Mar 2006, 13:39
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Founder, I forgot to add.

I AM I YOUR POSITION!!!!!!!!!!!!

I got my license through the modular route, flew tail draggers, worked hard, was welcomed with open arms into my previous company to fly a light twin air taxi and now I have moved on to teach ground school classes and fly another air taxi. It has taken sacrifice, a little bit of flying for beer, sausages and a tent but I have loved every minute of it and I have no doubt I will get a jet job, the reason....

I have turned down one already (a lifestyle choice) and passed a 737NG sim ride with another!!!!!!!!

Neither company wants me to buy my type rating and I am not desperate because I have worked hard knowing full well the best way to the top!!

Your whinging about my unprofessional comments and a lack of jobs for new pilots holds no bearing with me when I am trying to protect the T & C's that I am due in a few years!!!!

I did it, many others here have done it, why cant you and your buddies do it?

Again, the ..... ...... toilet. DAMB!!!
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Old 7th Mar 2006, 14:31
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by On speed on profile
Founder, you know nothing of the situation today, neither do your colleauges who buy TYPE RATINGS. The situation is this....

IF THEY BUY A TYPE RATING, IT IS AN INDERECT WAY OF SAYING TO THE COMPANY, I WILL DO ANYTHING FOR A JOB AND THEREFORE EXPECT TO GET PAID NOTHING.
GETTING PAID NOTHING MEANS THIS: NO LIFE, NO HOUSE, PROBABLY NO WIFE, NO LIFE, NO PENSION and lastly NO FUN OR QUALITY OF LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Founder, stop whingeing and open your eyes to the reality!!
Like I said, start acting like the professional you are and discuss this matter like an adult would...

Well, ask the guy's who did pay for their own type-rating. They earn about 3-6000 euro per month so you just showed that world that is you who know nothing about the situation since you claim that they are working for free...

And I dont think my friend is lazy and you are a fool to call him that. He is now a F/O at RyanAir and he is also a damn good pilot.

I ask you again how am I as a new pilot to be able to get 500 hours of multi-engine jet/turbine time without paying for a type-rating? Almost all airlines who fly B200 or larger aircrafts require their pilots to have at least 500 hours of the type I stated. So again and this is for the last time, how do you get that kind of time without paying for it?

By towing gliders or flying advance you're not going to get it...

Best Regards
/T
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Old 7th Mar 2006, 15:06
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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On speed on profile, your comments are very accurate and have saved me having to type something very similar. Good luck with your own quest for a TR-included job - your day will come.
That said, I can see to an extent where Founder's self-righteous tone is coming from. If I was after ******* over both a) my colleagues and b) my own future prospects, I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to admit it.

I ask you again how am I as a new pilot to be able to get 500 hours of multi-engine jet/turbine time without paying for a type-rating?
A little research will show you which companies are hiring 200hr pilots and are providing a TR. And don't tell me they aren't out there because they most certainly are.

Finally Founder, stop whining like a little girl about the language employed in here. If you can't stand the heat...

Last edited by Jetdriver; 7th Mar 2006 at 16:09.
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