BA: Is It Really That Bad???
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capitalism dictates that when the terms are in sufficient that BA will not be able to hire the staff.
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Re-Heat:
Are you sure that you are not really LCG?
Finger-Bob:
Let me just check my recently received Cathay Introductory Brief letter, oh yes, 15.5% salary Provident fund. Discretionary annual bonus one months salary, housing assistance, school fees, LOL, critical illness cover, 11 years to long haul command, tax 15%..........
BA: "You knew what you were signing up to when you signed your contract".
Did I? BA and BALPA were both in discussion when I joined. BA promised an "industry leading" 12% of salary orally at interview but convieniently forgot to mention only 75% was pensionable. When I phoned for explanation BA said read the MOA, they unfortunately couldn't mail me one as each consumed a small rain forrest. BALPA said the DC pension would be "not as good as NAPS but OK", when I later went to the BFS pension advisor he said, "Oh yes, the BARP pension is crap, your best bet is to pay max AVC." "Will that make it a decent pension?" "Err... not really."
Those BA managers are worth every penny of their salary and bonus's, they certainly know how to manage and motivate.
SFO's look out, it's your NAPS pension they really want, they need the Captains on-side so they can get it. But when they ask why you won't oblige quote back: "because we knew what we were signing up to when we signed the contract".
Are you sure that you are not really LCG?
Finger-Bob:
Let me just check my recently received Cathay Introductory Brief letter, oh yes, 15.5% salary Provident fund. Discretionary annual bonus one months salary, housing assistance, school fees, LOL, critical illness cover, 11 years to long haul command, tax 15%..........
BA: "You knew what you were signing up to when you signed your contract".
Did I? BA and BALPA were both in discussion when I joined. BA promised an "industry leading" 12% of salary orally at interview but convieniently forgot to mention only 75% was pensionable. When I phoned for explanation BA said read the MOA, they unfortunately couldn't mail me one as each consumed a small rain forrest. BALPA said the DC pension would be "not as good as NAPS but OK", when I later went to the BFS pension advisor he said, "Oh yes, the BARP pension is crap, your best bet is to pay max AVC." "Will that make it a decent pension?" "Err... not really."
Those BA managers are worth every penny of their salary and bonus's, they certainly know how to manage and motivate.
SFO's look out, it's your NAPS pension they really want, they need the Captains on-side so they can get it. But when they ask why you won't oblige quote back: "because we knew what we were signing up to when we signed the contract".
Last edited by FlyingTom; 11th Nov 2005 at 14:15.
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So can new joiners 'help' in any way? For me, it's a different country, different regulations and I don't understand every abbreviation used in this discussion.
I know the pension is getting worse... But as I said... Can new joiners do anything at all about this?
Cheers.
I know the pension is getting worse... But as I said... Can new joiners do anything at all about this?
Cheers.
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MD11Man
Yes sorry about the abbreviations, it is proof that you have fully joined when you can reel them off, and I'm moaning too so I must be a fully integrated Nigel.
At the moment the only thing new joiners can do about the pension is join BALPA and pressure them into pressuring BA. BA are pretty immune to pressure at the moment because people like me keep joining. Alternatively we could break off from BALPA and form a new pressure group or join the Transport and General Workers Union. BA listen to the TGWU and would much prefer all pilots to belong to BALPA.
What has changed with the new CEO is that management are now much more militant than the workers. There are huge costs that need reducing but those that are going to pay aren't the ones that can be accused of causing them.
Because we DEPs mostly come from LoCo backgrounds we expect less but have actually given more, ie. free type rating, low pension overhead, wage reduction. A 30 year baggage handler can cost the company £35M, still get a full final salary pension and provide zero flexibility. A 30 year retired Captain's pension drawn from today will exceed my total career earnings for about a third of my remaining career.
Joining BA is like winning the gold medal but finding it's not solid gold but gold plated. Looks the same but not worth the same.
Yes sorry about the abbreviations, it is proof that you have fully joined when you can reel them off, and I'm moaning too so I must be a fully integrated Nigel.
At the moment the only thing new joiners can do about the pension is join BALPA and pressure them into pressuring BA. BA are pretty immune to pressure at the moment because people like me keep joining. Alternatively we could break off from BALPA and form a new pressure group or join the Transport and General Workers Union. BA listen to the TGWU and would much prefer all pilots to belong to BALPA.
What has changed with the new CEO is that management are now much more militant than the workers. There are huge costs that need reducing but those that are going to pay aren't the ones that can be accused of causing them.
Because we DEPs mostly come from LoCo backgrounds we expect less but have actually given more, ie. free type rating, low pension overhead, wage reduction. A 30 year baggage handler can cost the company £35M, still get a full final salary pension and provide zero flexibility. A 30 year retired Captain's pension drawn from today will exceed my total career earnings for about a third of my remaining career.
Joining BA is like winning the gold medal but finding it's not solid gold but gold plated. Looks the same but not worth the same.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Can new joiners do anything at all about this?
Yes it really is that bad.
Mismanagement over the years has led to a very low level of morale.
With regards to pensions, management are currently carrying out a propoganda campaign to try to convince emoloyees that it is their job to make up the underfunding of NAPS. Obviously they will have to push this through before the regulator insists that BA fund the shortfall (as they easily could).
Apparently there will be some very large bonuses on the way to management should they succeed in duping the employees into funding the shortfall.
I understand that a new joiner could easily end up with a pension of less than £10000 pa after 20 years of what is effectively permanent standby or duty.
Finally, pilots are undoubtedly pressured to turn up when less than fit due to the draconian absence management policy.
Mismanagement over the years has led to a very low level of morale.
With regards to pensions, management are currently carrying out a propoganda campaign to try to convince emoloyees that it is their job to make up the underfunding of NAPS. Obviously they will have to push this through before the regulator insists that BA fund the shortfall (as they easily could).
Apparently there will be some very large bonuses on the way to management should they succeed in duping the employees into funding the shortfall.
I understand that a new joiner could easily end up with a pension of less than £10000 pa after 20 years of what is effectively permanent standby or duty.
Finally, pilots are undoubtedly pressured to turn up when less than fit due to the draconian absence management policy.
Last edited by snooky; 11th Nov 2005 at 17:58.
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Thanks for that, FlyingTom. You seem to have a good knowledge of the case. I will certainly consider all the advice you gave me, and hope to find a lot of information in my contract.
@ Human Factor
Not joining is not really an option. I am a low timer.
Certainly, the information here woke me up. I will try to find more info on this.
MD11Man
@ Human Factor
Not joining is not really an option. I am a low timer.
Certainly, the information here woke me up. I will try to find more info on this.
MD11Man
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cornet et al,
Having joined BA from elsewhere just under a year ago, I would stress that it’s vital to get a balanced a view as possible of the company. And establish the facts.
I came from a large charter company and, for what it’s worth, I am more than happy with my lot at BA. The company is far from perfect, and a lot of the above mentioned issues are very real, but some people are making mountains out of molehills.
What I see, time and time again, are people I suspect to be ex-cadets, or people who have been cocooned in a BA blanket for a long time, bitching and moaning on this and other forums. It would seem that they have little or no appreciation of the realities of aviation outside of BA. Whilst I would be the first person to stand and fight for our T + C's, the reality is that no company can afford to stand too far away from the lowest common denominator these days. Unfortunate, but true. And the fact of the matter is that people are still applying in droves, so what does that tell you......
Feel free to PM me if you like. Some people might say that my views don’t count as I'm still in my BA “honeymoon period”. Perhaps they’re correct. Or perhaps it’s because I've seen a bit more of the industry outside of BA over recent years than some.....
Good luck with the decision,
C_8
Having joined BA from elsewhere just under a year ago, I would stress that it’s vital to get a balanced a view as possible of the company. And establish the facts.
I came from a large charter company and, for what it’s worth, I am more than happy with my lot at BA. The company is far from perfect, and a lot of the above mentioned issues are very real, but some people are making mountains out of molehills.
What I see, time and time again, are people I suspect to be ex-cadets, or people who have been cocooned in a BA blanket for a long time, bitching and moaning on this and other forums. It would seem that they have little or no appreciation of the realities of aviation outside of BA. Whilst I would be the first person to stand and fight for our T + C's, the reality is that no company can afford to stand too far away from the lowest common denominator these days. Unfortunate, but true. And the fact of the matter is that people are still applying in droves, so what does that tell you......
Feel free to PM me if you like. Some people might say that my views don’t count as I'm still in my BA “honeymoon period”. Perhaps they’re correct. Or perhaps it’s because I've seen a bit more of the industry outside of BA over recent years than some.....
Good luck with the decision,
C_8
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And the fact of the matter is that people are still applying in droves, so what does that tell you......
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you always hear the bad stories the good stories never see the daylight people are used to whinging you can never make anyone happy all the time so join in mate and enjoy the ride
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Re-Heat:
Are you sure that you are not really LCG
Are you sure that you are not really LCG
A 30 year baggage handler can cost the company £35M, still get a full final salary pension and provide zero flexibility. A 30 year retired Captain's pension drawn from today will exceed my total career earnings for about a third of my remaining career.
If you underestimate what the new regulator will do to companies who fail to fund their promises, or find some agreement with staff to reduce the promises made to underfunded schemes, if could well be companies going down the pan along with any hope of refunding underfunded DB schemes.
At least as a DC scheme member, newer employees don't run the risk of losing the whole lot if the company fails. DB scheme members are in a far worse position having to fully fund retired members' pensions before all others. You could end up with the state pension - or less if you contracted out.
Would you not incentivise management to come to an agreement through bonuses? Far cheaper than actually being forced by PPF to follow their plan.
Last edited by Re-Heat; 12th Nov 2005 at 17:22.
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CM,
Whilst I respect your opinion and many of the valid points that you raise on this forum, both my memory and history show that you have never had a single good word to say about your employer. Can I just ask one question; if you are so dissatisfied with you lot, why don't you move to pastures greener?!
Regards,
C_8
Whilst I respect your opinion and many of the valid points that you raise on this forum, both my memory and history show that you have never had a single good word to say about your employer. Can I just ask one question; if you are so dissatisfied with you lot, why don't you move to pastures greener?!
Regards,
C_8
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Cuban 8, I suggest that you are in the "honey moon" period as I was just over 7 years ago, after various employment with various companies, and sadly I am a "cocooned cadet".
Come back in 7 years time. Then feel free to post on how much down the plug hole your terms and conditions have gone because you think its OK.
How many times you have seen our glorious luvies refuse to operate because they need an extra crew member now the club load has gone from 21 to 22. Then after you have waited for 45 mins for them to arrive you call ready, ah but you've forgotten the tuggies are going off shift "sorry mate not my problem" result you miss your slot then wait another hour for a tug. Thats OK cos everyone else is getting overtime, all that is except you.
After a few years it wears a bit thin. Before you shout "Nirvana" from the rooftops spend more than "just under one year" in my shoes
Come back in 7 years time. Then feel free to post on how much down the plug hole your terms and conditions have gone because you think its OK.
How many times you have seen our glorious luvies refuse to operate because they need an extra crew member now the club load has gone from 21 to 22. Then after you have waited for 45 mins for them to arrive you call ready, ah but you've forgotten the tuggies are going off shift "sorry mate not my problem" result you miss your slot then wait another hour for a tug. Thats OK cos everyone else is getting overtime, all that is except you.
After a few years it wears a bit thin. Before you shout "Nirvana" from the rooftops spend more than "just under one year" in my shoes
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Can I just ask one question; if you are so dissatisfied with you lot, why don't you move to pastures greener?!
To sum it up, after all those years, you exit the flight deck after your very last flight to be told by the First Class Purser "I poured a glass of champagne for all the crew to toast your retirement, but the CSD made me pour them all down the sink, no drinking in his cabin". Perhaps a manager to say goodbye.. well it was a Sunday morning, Say no more.
If you class this as whinging then good luck to you!
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C_8 - If I've never had a single good word to say about my employer then I suggest you ought to read my first post on this thread. Whilst you seem to look down on people who, in your words, "have little or no appreciation of the realities of aviation outside of BA", might I remind you that you are not working in the world of aviation outside of BA. You are working for BA now, which historically has had better terms of employment for its pilots than the rest of the UK industry. Those terms were not achieved by looking at the UK outside BA and saying"Oh how lucky we are". Had we adopted that approach we'd be negotiating down to the levels of our cheapest competitors, not negotiating upwards like Virgin did (incidentally, they did that using the benchmarking data compiled by the BACC).
You may believe that "no company can afford to stand too far away from the lowest common denominator these days", but I suggest you take a look at BAs accounts, as many before you have done over many years, and consider the cost base and productivity of the Flight Ops department compared to BA's overall turnover. Then compare that data to those of our major competitors. If you email your BALPA reps you may even get hold of the latest benchmarking data. You'll find that we're rather good value compared to our (profitable) international competitors. Attempts to screw yet more pennies from us are driven primarily by management desires to reach their bonus targets rather than the likelihood of making any significant contribution to profitability. Perhaps in another year when you've sat out a de-icing fiasco at LHR, a two week cancellation spree after snow in the USA leaves us 'short' of cabin crew, and another ground staff walk out you'll be less inclined to believe that profitability has to come directly out of your pocket.
You may believe that "no company can afford to stand too far away from the lowest common denominator these days", but I suggest you take a look at BAs accounts, as many before you have done over many years, and consider the cost base and productivity of the Flight Ops department compared to BA's overall turnover. Then compare that data to those of our major competitors. If you email your BALPA reps you may even get hold of the latest benchmarking data. You'll find that we're rather good value compared to our (profitable) international competitors. Attempts to screw yet more pennies from us are driven primarily by management desires to reach their bonus targets rather than the likelihood of making any significant contribution to profitability. Perhaps in another year when you've sat out a de-icing fiasco at LHR, a two week cancellation spree after snow in the USA leaves us 'short' of cabin crew, and another ground staff walk out you'll be less inclined to believe that profitability has to come directly out of your pocket.
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DD,
I have to say I beg to differ with your opinion. I made it clear that, in my opinion, BA is far from perfect. However, do you think that the problems to which you allude to are exclusive to BA?! Surely you are not that ignorant.
What I am saying is that the industry is, unfortunately, going down hill. Being an airplane driver is not the job it used to be. Perhaps BA is the best of a bad bunch. I can assure you from what I know that these problems, and more, exist elsewhere. At least we are not really exposed to the constant uncertainty and dubious job security that a lot of our colleges are!
If, as a seven year veteran like yourself, I am back here moaning about the company, I’m certain I will be doing so confident in the knowledge that the grass really is no greener elsewhere!
wp,
I am well aware that BA is not the sort of company that you leave at the drop of a hat, the implication of doing so are significant. However, I am merely suggesting that if I were as disgruntled as CM seems to be, I would SERIOULSY consider moving on. Life is too short. I am certain he has nowhere near 35 year service...... I would be very inclined not to be counting on that 75k and 250k lump sum too!!!
It is very disappointing to hear about your experience. But I’m sure you saw things change significantly over your time, and that is a sign of things to come. I wish I was in the industry over the era that you were, the fun seems to be disappearing rapidly these days :-(.
Kind Regards,
C_8.
I have to say I beg to differ with your opinion. I made it clear that, in my opinion, BA is far from perfect. However, do you think that the problems to which you allude to are exclusive to BA?! Surely you are not that ignorant.
What I am saying is that the industry is, unfortunately, going down hill. Being an airplane driver is not the job it used to be. Perhaps BA is the best of a bad bunch. I can assure you from what I know that these problems, and more, exist elsewhere. At least we are not really exposed to the constant uncertainty and dubious job security that a lot of our colleges are!
If, as a seven year veteran like yourself, I am back here moaning about the company, I’m certain I will be doing so confident in the knowledge that the grass really is no greener elsewhere!
wp,
I am well aware that BA is not the sort of company that you leave at the drop of a hat, the implication of doing so are significant. However, I am merely suggesting that if I were as disgruntled as CM seems to be, I would SERIOULSY consider moving on. Life is too short. I am certain he has nowhere near 35 year service...... I would be very inclined not to be counting on that 75k and 250k lump sum too!!!
It is very disappointing to hear about your experience. But I’m sure you saw things change significantly over your time, and that is a sign of things to come. I wish I was in the industry over the era that you were, the fun seems to be disappearing rapidly these days :-(.
Kind Regards,
C_8.
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As an outsider my apologies for butting in but.....
Whilst I applaud you for wanting to maintain your present T&C I implore you to fight for better.
As has been stated earlier on this thread BA has the best T&C and as an easyJet driver I'd like them to stay that way as if nothing else it gives us something to aim for even we don't quite reach it
You are misguided though to think that you have to come down to the lowest common denominator. How about setting the standard. If you track the bottom you'll end up in a spiral dive. If you go higher companies have to follow. Nobody is talking about being greedy......
Remember your managers are on bonuses to produce cost savings. Roughly translated they'll get richer if they make you poorer. Whether it's adowngrade from a Sheraton to Marriott and before you know it you're in a Travel Inn by the motorway (I jest not).
Do you want to be poorer?
A little cut here and there soon mounts up. Once lost it's very difficult to get back.
What I am saying is that the industry is, unfortunately, going down hill. Being an airplane driver is not the job it used to be. Perhaps BA is the best of a bad bunch.
the reality is that no company can afford to stand too far away from the lowest common denominator these days.
As has been stated earlier on this thread BA has the best T&C and as an easyJet driver I'd like them to stay that way as if nothing else it gives us something to aim for even we don't quite reach it
You are misguided though to think that you have to come down to the lowest common denominator. How about setting the standard. If you track the bottom you'll end up in a spiral dive. If you go higher companies have to follow. Nobody is talking about being greedy......
Remember your managers are on bonuses to produce cost savings. Roughly translated they'll get richer if they make you poorer. Whether it's adowngrade from a Sheraton to Marriott and before you know it you're in a Travel Inn by the motorway (I jest not).
Do you want to be poorer?
A little cut here and there soon mounts up. Once lost it's very difficult to get back.
