What is going on at EZY?
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I have heard that of the 1000+ pilots in easyJet, only about 350 are BALPA members. If that is the case, and it is only what I have heard, then BALPA doesn't have much of a mandate in easyJet.
Discuss.
Discuss.
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Mr Ree, Im afraid BALPA is the only show in town despite the low membership (whatever that may be!), I am told the company will only negotiate with BALPA, the rest of us dont matter. If you want a voice you need to join them!
Whatever we think 5/2 5/4 is a done deal so Im afraid we are going to be lumbered with it. All this nonsense from BALPA about lets accept it as it is and we can chip away at it; quite frankly is Horse
Do they really think the company will give things back, come on guys please, who is sh who here.
It seems some of the Base/Standards Captains have seen the light and decided to move on, perhaps thats the only option if you dont fancy the new deal.
Whatever we think 5/2 5/4 is a done deal so Im afraid we are going to be lumbered with it. All this nonsense from BALPA about lets accept it as it is and we can chip away at it; quite frankly is Horse
Do they really think the company will give things back, come on guys please, who is sh
who here.It seems some of the Base/Standards Captains have seen the light and decided to move on, perhaps thats the only option if you dont fancy the new deal.
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This is the problem with BALPA. As a pilot at easyJet it is my business. In fact it is more than that. It is my life. I really cannot understand anyone saying that I have no business in what goes on in easyJET because I don't belong to BALPA. Frankly I despair at the quality of the representation that BALPA provides at easyJET. There seems to be a mix of bully boys and the mildly lunatic fringe with the notable exception of a couple of individuals who I do respect.
After every BALPA vote these past few years I have yet to meet anyone who voted yes. Yet the deals go through and the ezy pilot workforce again is overjoyed at the great deal BALPA has arranged. Not. Tony and his gang should come along and learn new ways to spin as BALPA has it down to a fine art.
To join BALPA costs a lot of money. A LOT. That's fine if the money buys the quality product. Sadly it doesn't. We keep hearing that the reps don't get paid. Hello!? What on earth are the subs going on then?
No, I'm not management. I just resent being manipulated by BALPA and management alike, that's why I belong to neither. As far as I can see at ezy there is very little difference between the two, and paying money to BALPA would seem to be another way of ezy management getting me to reduce my salary.
After every BALPA vote these past few years I have yet to meet anyone who voted yes. Yet the deals go through and the ezy pilot workforce again is overjoyed at the great deal BALPA has arranged. Not. Tony and his gang should come along and learn new ways to spin as BALPA has it down to a fine art.
To join BALPA costs a lot of money. A LOT. That's fine if the money buys the quality product. Sadly it doesn't. We keep hearing that the reps don't get paid. Hello!? What on earth are the subs going on then?
No, I'm not management. I just resent being manipulated by BALPA and management alike, that's why I belong to neither. As far as I can see at ezy there is very little difference between the two, and paying money to BALPA would seem to be another way of ezy management getting me to reduce my salary.
Mr Ree,
I can hardly believe what I'm reading. You claim that you have an intense interest in the T&Cs at easyJet, and yet display a profound ignorence of the whole situation.
And when exactley was your salary reduced? The last negotiation led to a four per cent increase in our salary. As you didn't like BALPA negotiating that for you, I suggest you return it and negotiate your own increase. Would you like to tell me where else you could the same salary as at easyJet. Note my question. There are higher paid pilots, but where could you apply to tommorow and get better paid or, if you're an FO, have a quicker path to command.
I did, there's one.
The reps are unpaid and represent us voluntarily. Do you dispute this?? Subs go on things like legal representation, maintaining an office, staff and so on. By the way, if you ever end up on the wrong end of a legal proceeding arriing from your work, who'll be paying YOUR bills?
If you don't like the quality of BALPAs representation, then your not joining and standing on the sidelines whinging achieves exactley nothing. Your JOINING and helping to increase the number of pilots represented INCREASES the negotiating position BALPA holds.
I take it you will be opting for random rostering as you obviously prefer this to both the 6/3 and 5/4/5/2 pattern BALPA "Manipulated" you into.
I can hardly believe what I'm reading. You claim that you have an intense interest in the T&Cs at easyJet, and yet display a profound ignorence of the whole situation.
paying money to BALPA would seem to be another way of ezy management getting me to reduce my salary.
After every BALPA vote these past few years I have yet to meet anyone who voted yes.
To join BALPA costs a lot of money. A LOT. That's fine if the money buys the quality product. Sadly it doesn't. We keep hearing that the reps don't get paid. Hello!? What on earth are the subs going on then?
If you don't like the quality of BALPAs representation, then your not joining and standing on the sidelines whinging achieves exactley nothing. Your JOINING and helping to increase the number of pilots represented INCREASES the negotiating position BALPA holds.
I take it you will be opting for random rostering as you obviously prefer this to both the 6/3 and 5/4/5/2 pattern BALPA "Manipulated" you into.
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wizofoz if your not a BALPA rep you certainly should be, you have certainly fallen for all the PR crap they put out.
I have no intention of arguing the pros and cons of joining BALPA however regarding the legal cover you are way off the mark, we all know that in the real world BALPA will cherry pick which cases they fight.....you f up your on your own.
Ask Dan Air guys or Air Europe how strong BALPA fought for them!.
Anyway keep believing
I have no intention of arguing the pros and cons of joining BALPA however regarding the legal cover you are way off the mark, we all know that in the real world BALPA will cherry pick which cases they fight.....you f
up your on your own.Ask Dan Air guys or Air Europe how strong BALPA fought for them!.
Anyway keep believing
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wiz: oh dear oh dear oh dear. Ok, about 10 % of the pilots at ezy voted for the new deal. That's not really a lot. Obviously we have not met, because if we had you would have told me that you had voted yes on a previous vote (not missing your loyalty bonus are you?) and I wouldn't have been able to write what I did about not knowing anyone who had etc etc.
Ok, lets see: I want you to pay me a large monthly retainer so I can represent your interests at negotiations with ezyJet management. I am well qualified to do this, but hey, wait a minute, what I'll do instead is take your large monthly retainer and keep it, and I'll send someone else to the negotiating table who is not qualified or experienced and what's more will do it for nothing! But I'm not giving your money back to you. Sounds like a great deal. Why? Because I told you it is.
Oh, ok then, where can I join?
News Flash: impending vote on the UK and the EU. If you are a UK citizen we would like to inform you that this vote is only your business (despite changes to the law that will impact your life) if you join an expensive and costly organisation (that you may not wish to join) who will not send anyone on your behalf qualified to represent you but instead will send volunteers who will receive no payment for their work. If you do not join this organisation the changes that will have a dramatic impact on your life are none of your business. Thankyou fellow citizens.
Sounds a bit like the way the mafia conducts business.
wiz, I forgot to answer one of your questions about where else I could go. Well, I could, if I chose, go to Ryanair tomorrow, work an easier roster, and get another £600 a month for my efforts.
But I don\'t choose to do that.
Ok, lets see: I want you to pay me a large monthly retainer so I can represent your interests at negotiations with ezyJet management. I am well qualified to do this, but hey, wait a minute, what I'll do instead is take your large monthly retainer and keep it, and I'll send someone else to the negotiating table who is not qualified or experienced and what's more will do it for nothing! But I'm not giving your money back to you. Sounds like a great deal. Why? Because I told you it is.
Oh, ok then, where can I join?
News Flash: impending vote on the UK and the EU. If you are a UK citizen we would like to inform you that this vote is only your business (despite changes to the law that will impact your life) if you join an expensive and costly organisation (that you may not wish to join) who will not send anyone on your behalf qualified to represent you but instead will send volunteers who will receive no payment for their work. If you do not join this organisation the changes that will have a dramatic impact on your life are none of your business. Thankyou fellow citizens.
Sounds a bit like the way the mafia conducts business.
wiz, I forgot to answer one of your questions about where else I could go. Well, I could, if I chose, go to Ryanair tomorrow, work an easier roster, and get another £600 a month for my efforts.
But I don\'t choose to do that.
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Doing the maths, it would appear that less than one in four ezy pilots have voted for this rubbish, yet both balpa and easy management are patting themselves on the back for an overwelming majority vote ! I have long since removed myself from the balpa gravey train since I never saw my interests served by them. I continue to be amazed that management are unable to recognise how inefficient the system is with disillusioned and unmotivated pilots flying their aeroplanes. (army of one etc) So long as bonuses are paid for rediculous targets heads will remain in the sand and we will continue to be flogged. Enjoy !
Mr Ree (and others),
The reason why we have BALPA representation within easyJet is because the pilots voted for it. It was a democratic decision taken against the background of two sides fiercely arguing opposing views on the subject. The resulting vote in favour of BALPA recognition bestowed upon BALPA negotiating rights with the company which the cc carry out to the best of their ability. It is then up to the membership to make an informed decision as to the acceptance of the package, in this case the 5/2/5/4 roster.
We all make a conscious decision regarding BALPA membership. Having already collectively decided to mandate BALPA with our negotiating rights, one of the consequences of deciding not to be a member of BALPA is the inability to vote upon the recommendations of the BALPA cc. It is your right not to be a member of BALPA, but you must accept the resulting consequences of your decision.
It is in all our interests to be able to negotiate from a position of strength with the company on matters which have an impact upon our lives. Unfortunately the low levels of membership remove that ability and the imperfect package delivered demonstrates this. If more pilots within the easyJet community were to be members of BALPA then the bargaining position would undoubtedly strengthen resulting in improved terms and conditions.
To any easyJet pilots reading this, may I request that you seriously consider joining BALPA if you have not already done so. There is strength in numbers and by increasing the membership levels we will not only increase our collective strength, you will also be ensuring that you have a voice that can be heard.
Thanks for taking the time to read this post.
The reason why we have BALPA representation within easyJet is because the pilots voted for it. It was a democratic decision taken against the background of two sides fiercely arguing opposing views on the subject. The resulting vote in favour of BALPA recognition bestowed upon BALPA negotiating rights with the company which the cc carry out to the best of their ability. It is then up to the membership to make an informed decision as to the acceptance of the package, in this case the 5/2/5/4 roster.
We all make a conscious decision regarding BALPA membership. Having already collectively decided to mandate BALPA with our negotiating rights, one of the consequences of deciding not to be a member of BALPA is the inability to vote upon the recommendations of the BALPA cc. It is your right not to be a member of BALPA, but you must accept the resulting consequences of your decision.
It is in all our interests to be able to negotiate from a position of strength with the company on matters which have an impact upon our lives. Unfortunately the low levels of membership remove that ability and the imperfect package delivered demonstrates this. If more pilots within the easyJet community were to be members of BALPA then the bargaining position would undoubtedly strengthen resulting in improved terms and conditions.
To any easyJet pilots reading this, may I request that you seriously consider joining BALPA if you have not already done so. There is strength in numbers and by increasing the membership levels we will not only increase our collective strength, you will also be ensuring that you have a voice that can be heard.
Thanks for taking the time to read this post.
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autobrake3
Your maths is way off the mark!!!
I wholeheardedly support the suggestion that, from now on, Balpa should negotiate for Balpa members only and the rest can sort out their own lives or put their trust and faith in the management they so dearly love.
Your maths is way off the mark!!!
I wholeheardedly support the suggestion that, from now on, Balpa should negotiate for Balpa members only and the rest can sort out their own lives or put their trust and faith in the management they so dearly love.
Mr Ree,
As I said, don't speak out of ignorance. I get my loyalty bonus this year same as ever UNLESS the CC reach an agreement with the company to replace it with a more beneficial profit share schemem AND the majority of BALPA members (which will not include you now will it) vote for it.
If you paid the £50 pounds to apply to Ryanair, then the £150 to do the sim and paid for your initial training, you would be unpaid for the term of your line training, then on a contract basis, without a permenent base, accomodation whilst away or transport to your next base of operation, earning less than half what you do at easyJet for the first three years. Then you MIGHT be taken on permanently and yes, earn more than you do at EJ.
So why haven't you? Probably best all round if you considered it...
not missing your loyalty bonus are you?
wiz, I forgot to answer one of your questions about where else I could go. Well, I could, if I chose, go to Ryanair tomorrow, work an easier roster, and get another £600 a month for my efforts.
So why haven't you? Probably best all round if you considered it...
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I actually left BALPA when I came to easyJet for various reasons. Whatever the rights and wrongs of BALPA you have to say that if you opt out, as I have, then you have no right whatsoever to moan about the way things are. I have lost that right and accept it, but am increasingly tempted to rejoin.
All this talk about '10% of the company's pilot's voted for 5/2-5/4' and so on is like saying only 25% of the electorate voted to elect Bush, Blair or Chirac in their respective countries. The fact is that every single pilot at easyjet, regardless of experience or nationality had the right to join BALPA and thereby could have voted in this election. If you choose not to join then you have to live with the consequences (and I do!).
Before I was in easyJet the company bent over backwards to maintain the old Pilot's Council (is that what it was called?) and just about begged all the pilots to vote against BALPA representation. Despite that they were not listened to and BALPA recognition came about by a transparent, democratic and legal process. Quite rightly, having lost the vote, the company have elected to deal with BALPA directly as the vote against their wishes mandated. The management are not therefore responsible for the place of BALPA in the lives of easyJet pilots.
Nobody should now complain they did not have a say in the process - if you pay the dues then you get to choose!
All this talk about '10% of the company's pilot's voted for 5/2-5/4' and so on is like saying only 25% of the electorate voted to elect Bush, Blair or Chirac in their respective countries. The fact is that every single pilot at easyjet, regardless of experience or nationality had the right to join BALPA and thereby could have voted in this election. If you choose not to join then you have to live with the consequences (and I do!).
Before I was in easyJet the company bent over backwards to maintain the old Pilot's Council (is that what it was called?) and just about begged all the pilots to vote against BALPA representation. Despite that they were not listened to and BALPA recognition came about by a transparent, democratic and legal process. Quite rightly, having lost the vote, the company have elected to deal with BALPA directly as the vote against their wishes mandated. The management are not therefore responsible for the place of BALPA in the lives of easyJet pilots.
Nobody should now complain they did not have a say in the process - if you pay the dues then you get to choose!
Last edited by Norman Stanley Fletcher; 24th Feb 2005 at 16:45.
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mr ree
I didnt say your contract is none of your business. What I said was, BALPA memebership levels are none of your business. Your original post was just a fishing expedition, to see if someone would announce the current level. No luck there then.
Who is BALPA? It aint no multimillion dollar private organisation who sets out for huge profits. It is a group of pilots who realisie that collective baragaining is more successful than individual. The rules are set by the pilot members, and these rules include, sensibly, that the bargaining must be done by the pilots within a company group. If you want an organisation to do all your dirty work for you, then best you prepare to offer more than one percent, because that is what it will cost!
Evidence is everywhere, that pilots who stick together, for collective bargaining purposes, will always do better than any other alternative. Conversely the lack of collectivity amongst a good proportion of eJ pilots means we are left accepting much of what the company chooses.
I didnt say your contract is none of your business. What I said was, BALPA memebership levels are none of your business. Your original post was just a fishing expedition, to see if someone would announce the current level. No luck there then.
Who is BALPA? It aint no multimillion dollar private organisation who sets out for huge profits. It is a group of pilots who realisie that collective baragaining is more successful than individual. The rules are set by the pilot members, and these rules include, sensibly, that the bargaining must be done by the pilots within a company group. If you want an organisation to do all your dirty work for you, then best you prepare to offer more than one percent, because that is what it will cost!
Evidence is everywhere, that pilots who stick together, for collective bargaining purposes, will always do better than any other alternative. Conversely the lack of collectivity amongst a good proportion of eJ pilots means we are left accepting much of what the company chooses.
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Listening to all this pro and anti BALPA sentiment seems to me that EZY should start to think about setting up its own pilot's union! Everyone in the company would be a member with dues coming out of salary before tax. 100% membership would give a bargaining position that the management couldn't divide and manipulate. With more than 1100 pilots from all over europe, maybe it's time to be innovative and stride out on your own!!!
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Fimbles, your exactly right, if we had a company council that represented ALL pilots and was voted for by ALL pilots we wouldnt be in the mess we currently find ourselves.
Cetainly give the chaps in Tangerine towers a shock, at the moment it is all too easy for them to walk all over us. They know that BALPA is not well represented so divide and conquer is simple.
With management targets of "cut costs across the operation", "reduce pilot numbers", "get max hours out of the pilots", how can we expect them to give way on anything we accept now.
If they dont hit there targets they dont get their bonus, and thats what matters, our lifestyle is a distant second........lets not kid ourselves eh!
Oh and Flaps 1, didnt I hear that this outfit use Southwest as a role model ??!!
Cetainly give the chaps in Tangerine towers a shock, at the moment it is all too easy for them to walk all over us. They know that BALPA is not well represented so divide and conquer is simple.
With management targets of "cut costs across the operation", "reduce pilot numbers", "get max hours out of the pilots", how can we expect them to give way on anything we accept now.
If they dont hit there targets they dont get their bonus, and thats what matters, our lifestyle is a distant second........lets not kid ourselves eh!
Oh and Flaps 1, didnt I hear that this outfit use Southwest as a role model ??!!
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100 % Agree with fimbles BALPA have proved over and over to be useless and devicive a new union for just easy people with say 1000 members and low payments would be just what might change things for the better.
Last edited by NOT ORANGE; 26th Feb 2005 at 13:24.
i can't help feeling that the management would love us to ditch BALPA and form our own little union.
In a previous life we all decided that we would do a better job of negotiating with the management than the TGWU so we all left and set up our own negotiating body. We were promptly given a right royal shafting by the management
In a previous life we all decided that we would do a better job of negotiating with the management than the TGWU so we all left and set up our own negotiating body. We were promptly given a right royal shafting by the management
CP,
I'm not in a position to say you're wrong, though I don't see what the CCs motivation was to say a return to random rostering was a possibility. I also don't see what the big advantage to the company is with the new deal. We work the same number of days or fewer. The same flights get crewed by the same number of crew.
Out of interest, what would have been your prefered solution, and how do you think it might have been achieved?
I'm not in a position to say you're wrong, though I don't see what the CCs motivation was to say a return to random rostering was a possibility. I also don't see what the big advantage to the company is with the new deal. We work the same number of days or fewer. The same flights get crewed by the same number of crew.
Out of interest, what would have been your prefered solution, and how do you think it might have been achieved?