What is going on at EZY?
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Excellent post rat - I could not agree more. We need to show some resolve and get this matter sorted once and for all. I have another 30 years to go and I would like this to be a decent job. Surely that must be worth fighting for.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pete
If you're resigning - goodbye! Your attitude just about sums up what's wrong.
If some guys put in half as much effort into getting things sorted as goes into moaning about everything possible - life and work would be a breeze.
The CC won't answer you're questions here.
Ask the on the Balpa forum, or email them to any CC member.
Then they will be answered - if you can bothered to listen!
If you're resigning - goodbye! Your attitude just about sums up what's wrong.
If some guys put in half as much effort into getting things sorted as goes into moaning about everything possible - life and work would be a breeze.
The CC won't answer you're questions here.
Ask the on the Balpa forum, or email them to any CC member.
Then they will be answered - if you can bothered to listen!
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: peoples republic of EU
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
once again the arrogance of the company council comes to the fore. That's just the sort of attitude that will always guarantee you never get 100% membership. I'm beginning to wonder if its really the management we should be worrying about or BALPA?
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: cbeebies
Age: 60
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wizo,
Badly phrased, if we have the new system I would be loathed to take my GDOs in one block as a replacement for leave as I would need to retain the flexibility to guarentee certain days off as the year progresses.
Either way GDOs they claim back, leave they don't!!
Badly phrased, if we have the new system I would be loathed to take my GDOs in one block as a replacement for leave as I would need to retain the flexibility to guarentee certain days off as the year progresses.
Either way GDOs they claim back, leave they don't!!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RAT 5, i thoroughly i agree with almost all of your post, but am unsure about the 4/4 finish as late as you like and start before 6 bit. If you finish after midnight the next day is not a day off, and if you start before 0600 the previous day isn't a day off, surely? that's not 4/4 that would be 6/2.
I like your philosophy though. I can't help spotting a similarity between this thread and the problems with another Loco drifting ignorantly towards industrial strife as BALPA don't seem to be able to represent the membership's feelings and aspirations.
I like your philosophy though. I can't help spotting a similarity between this thread and the problems with another Loco drifting ignorantly towards industrial strife as BALPA don't seem to be able to represent the membership's feelings and aspirations.
Alba Gu Brath
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Merseyside
Age: 55
Posts: 738
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rat5s proposals do have a number of holes in them.
1. You couldn't work 2 days / 2 nights as most of the 2 day flights would be earlies, hence 4 consecutive early starts / late finish duties. Secondly the gap between second day and first night will infringe the 18-30 hour rest restriction. Not a hard and fast rule but is frowned upon by the Spanish Inquisition!
2. As max nightstop has pointed out, it would end up as 6 days on 2 days off. Fine if the roster can remain as published, but it is too open to amendments / instability.
One question, was the EZY flying programme considered when the agreement was put together. You can have the best scheduling agreement in the world, but if the flights don't fit then it ain't worth the paper it's written on. Why not get a copy of the flying programme, build roster lines with patterns you would like to operate and submit proposals (and the patterns) to the company. There's no point pushing for things like 8 o'clock start after days off if all your wave 1 flights depart at 06:00!
1. You couldn't work 2 days / 2 nights as most of the 2 day flights would be earlies, hence 4 consecutive early starts / late finish duties. Secondly the gap between second day and first night will infringe the 18-30 hour rest restriction. Not a hard and fast rule but is frowned upon by the Spanish Inquisition!
2. As max nightstop has pointed out, it would end up as 6 days on 2 days off. Fine if the roster can remain as published, but it is too open to amendments / instability.
One question, was the EZY flying programme considered when the agreement was put together. You can have the best scheduling agreement in the world, but if the flights don't fit then it ain't worth the paper it's written on. Why not get a copy of the flying programme, build roster lines with patterns you would like to operate and submit proposals (and the patterns) to the company. There's no point pushing for things like 8 o'clock start after days off if all your wave 1 flights depart at 06:00!
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Max N.S. & Big T.
Thanks for the comments, and I take your points. The good thing is that a "thinking man's" debate is taking place. All this mish mash of rolling a dice and thinkng of some numbers to design a roster pattern is really lacking in imagination. Trying to squeeze a schedule into some random sequence is the tail wagging the dog. It's an "off the peg, one size fits all" solution. Bespoke tailoring always works; always allowing some spare cloth for later in life adjustments.
I hear comments about LPL & EDI and other bases liking 5/4/5/2, or that some bases have shcedules that do not allow this or that pattern.
WHY SHOULD ALL BASES HAVE THE SAME ROSTER PATTERN?
They have different schedules, so why not let each base have a tailored pattern? Why not let each base have its own rosterer at the base? It would take someone one day to make a roster for a base. Why have a centralised rosterer? LoCo's, and ej in particular, claim to have revolutionised the industry, but they are total dinosaurs when it comes to man managemenet, and that to most of us means rostering.
My suggestion about flexi days was not that they could be used in tandem; only one of the days off could be flexible, thus retaining a minimum of 3 days off. Further, this use of 'flexi-days' would be restricted to e.g. only once in a monthly roster period.
If 2 earlies 2 lates infriges the 3 consecutive 'night' rules that is not such a big problem. The 3rd or 4th duty could easily be adjusted to accommodate that rule.
As for the 18-30 rule; as you say it s a guide line. If the 3rd or 4th duty was adjusted to avoid the 4 night slots, this could also be respected. There will need to be some SBY's sometime during the month, and these will assist in obeying these rules.
The major problem with a fixed roster pattern of any sort is the attitude of the rosterer. They will roster days off and not duty days. Duty will just be used to fill in the gaps. Been there, done it. Life becomes very frustrating, inflexible and inefficient. Ultimately, with inefficient use of crews it must cost the company. It really is a LOSE LOSE.
Again! Think outside the box and don't just accept some tinkering. Be radical. And please don't fall into the trap of thinking 5/3/5/3/ is great and therefore 5/4/5/2 must be better. It is not true, but it will take years to change it once introduced. A little more time spent considering now, will reap massive rewards for long to come.
Remember there should be a SPIRIT included in any schedule. The battle seems to be how close the company can keep you to maximium and how many concessions you can achieve to keep from the edges. Is that really the best you can do???
This is not just about ej, but all airlines. The whole industry's in a mess. Each airline looking at each other's agreements and trying a little carrot here & there. It's rather like ticket pricing. A couple of euros cheaper will entice the pax; an extra day off per month will allow X to say it has a better roster than Y. BunKum.
Thanks for the comments, and I take your points. The good thing is that a "thinking man's" debate is taking place. All this mish mash of rolling a dice and thinkng of some numbers to design a roster pattern is really lacking in imagination. Trying to squeeze a schedule into some random sequence is the tail wagging the dog. It's an "off the peg, one size fits all" solution. Bespoke tailoring always works; always allowing some spare cloth for later in life adjustments.
I hear comments about LPL & EDI and other bases liking 5/4/5/2, or that some bases have shcedules that do not allow this or that pattern.
WHY SHOULD ALL BASES HAVE THE SAME ROSTER PATTERN?
They have different schedules, so why not let each base have a tailored pattern? Why not let each base have its own rosterer at the base? It would take someone one day to make a roster for a base. Why have a centralised rosterer? LoCo's, and ej in particular, claim to have revolutionised the industry, but they are total dinosaurs when it comes to man managemenet, and that to most of us means rostering.
My suggestion about flexi days was not that they could be used in tandem; only one of the days off could be flexible, thus retaining a minimum of 3 days off. Further, this use of 'flexi-days' would be restricted to e.g. only once in a monthly roster period.
If 2 earlies 2 lates infriges the 3 consecutive 'night' rules that is not such a big problem. The 3rd or 4th duty could easily be adjusted to accommodate that rule.
As for the 18-30 rule; as you say it s a guide line. If the 3rd or 4th duty was adjusted to avoid the 4 night slots, this could also be respected. There will need to be some SBY's sometime during the month, and these will assist in obeying these rules.
The major problem with a fixed roster pattern of any sort is the attitude of the rosterer. They will roster days off and not duty days. Duty will just be used to fill in the gaps. Been there, done it. Life becomes very frustrating, inflexible and inefficient. Ultimately, with inefficient use of crews it must cost the company. It really is a LOSE LOSE.
Again! Think outside the box and don't just accept some tinkering. Be radical. And please don't fall into the trap of thinking 5/3/5/3/ is great and therefore 5/4/5/2 must be better. It is not true, but it will take years to change it once introduced. A little more time spent considering now, will reap massive rewards for long to come.
Remember there should be a SPIRIT included in any schedule. The battle seems to be how close the company can keep you to maximium and how many concessions you can achieve to keep from the edges. Is that really the best you can do???
This is not just about ej, but all airlines. The whole industry's in a mess. Each airline looking at each other's agreements and trying a little carrot here & there. It's rather like ticket pricing. A couple of euros cheaper will entice the pax; an extra day off per month will allow X to say it has a better roster than Y. BunKum.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RAT 5
Normal shift workers dont work 4 on 4 off. They normally end at 0700 so this would be 5/3 to a Pilot. Thats based on a 12 hr shift.
Other shift workers work shorter hours but end up doing lates / earlies and switch from lates into days or vv between their days off much like the proposed EZY offer, except to say it would be two days off not 4.
Some shift workers also work 2100-0530 Mon-Friday, rest day Sat single day off Sun then start all over again. Maybe EZY should adopt that one...
Normal shift workers dont work 4 on 4 off. They normally end at 0700 so this would be 5/3 to a Pilot. Thats based on a 12 hr shift.
Other shift workers work shorter hours but end up doing lates / earlies and switch from lates into days or vv between their days off much like the proposed EZY offer, except to say it would be two days off not 4.
Some shift workers also work 2100-0530 Mon-Friday, rest day Sat single day off Sun then start all over again. Maybe EZY should adopt that one...
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: LUTON, BEDS
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with just about every point made by rat5. But after reading several comments, I feel the need to disilussion quite a few of you about one of your pet hates: rosterers.
No rosterer I've ever known has the power to make any political or otherwise decisions. They don't decide the schedule, they don't decide the crew numbers, or the bases, or what sbys are needed, or when the training falls, or where leave or days off go, or what would be a sensible roster. In fact, their opinions, whatever they might be, are mostly ignored. And ditto for their frustrations. They just get told to stop whingeing and to get on with it. They have no control over what happens at the beginning of the food chain, ie: recruitment, training, scheduling, bases, etc. As for the 5254, not a single rosterer was involved in its invention. Management were, yes, but not the lowly rosterers.
If your rosters are Sh**, tell your managers. If your base is undercrewed, tell your managers. Maybe if enough people complain, they'll start to listen, but I have a feeling pigs might fly first.
No one produces s**t rosters on purpose, and there's no such thing as hating the crew. Half the team at ej are ex crew! But if the basics are wrong, how can you expect miracles? If the wrong tools are provided, there's nought else to be done.
The fact of the matter is that the rosters are produced manually, cause the computer system cannot be trusted to do a decent job; the crew, aircraft and flight numbers keep on growing, but the department doesn't. Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work that one out, does it? Unless something is done somewhere along the line, things cannot get any better, not out of despite, but because it's not humanly possible.
In short, there's a lot of sympathy for the situation, and plenty of experience and willingness to change things but no power. Can I suggest that the rants get directed at the right people? Management, directors, take your pick, you're bound to get it right.
No rosterer I've ever known has the power to make any political or otherwise decisions. They don't decide the schedule, they don't decide the crew numbers, or the bases, or what sbys are needed, or when the training falls, or where leave or days off go, or what would be a sensible roster. In fact, their opinions, whatever they might be, are mostly ignored. And ditto for their frustrations. They just get told to stop whingeing and to get on with it. They have no control over what happens at the beginning of the food chain, ie: recruitment, training, scheduling, bases, etc. As for the 5254, not a single rosterer was involved in its invention. Management were, yes, but not the lowly rosterers.
If your rosters are Sh**, tell your managers. If your base is undercrewed, tell your managers. Maybe if enough people complain, they'll start to listen, but I have a feeling pigs might fly first.
No one produces s**t rosters on purpose, and there's no such thing as hating the crew. Half the team at ej are ex crew! But if the basics are wrong, how can you expect miracles? If the wrong tools are provided, there's nought else to be done.
The fact of the matter is that the rosters are produced manually, cause the computer system cannot be trusted to do a decent job; the crew, aircraft and flight numbers keep on growing, but the department doesn't. Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work that one out, does it? Unless something is done somewhere along the line, things cannot get any better, not out of despite, but because it's not humanly possible.
In short, there's a lot of sympathy for the situation, and plenty of experience and willingness to change things but no power. Can I suggest that the rants get directed at the right people? Management, directors, take your pick, you're bound to get it right.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hangar 69
Posts: 508
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Completely agree with EGUZKI.
A lot of frustration is taken out on crewing and OPS, but they can only work with the (very limited) tools they are given.
Creating an airline that treats itīs employees (all employees, not just flight crews) in a fair way comes from the top down.
Itīs the management top (the ones who claim EZY is the Southwest of Europe) that need to listen to itīs employees a little it better. If they would do just that, EZY would be able to both cuts costs and at the same time improve profitability/productivity by creating a good working environment.
If some managers would only read a few books like "Nuts" and "From worst to first."
A lot of frustration is taken out on crewing and OPS, but they can only work with the (very limited) tools they are given.
Creating an airline that treats itīs employees (all employees, not just flight crews) in a fair way comes from the top down.
Itīs the management top (the ones who claim EZY is the Southwest of Europe) that need to listen to itīs employees a little it better. If they would do just that, EZY would be able to both cuts costs and at the same time improve profitability/productivity by creating a good working environment.
If some managers would only read a few books like "Nuts" and "From worst to first."
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EGUZKI
I do apologise. I've re-read my post, and after reading yours it sounds unfair to lump you in with the "the other lot". I thank you for the time to comment and sympathies. My comments are aimed at the Head of rostering, i.e. the chief and not the indians.
However, I have worked for companies where the rosterer did drive the show. The change in patterns & life style was most marked when the head honcho was on leave; and that could be in either direction, good/bad/good, depending on which airline it was.
Should it not be beholden on each department to insist on the correct tools to do the job demanded of them? Perhaps that is what managers should be doing, but often it is those at the coal face who have the real knowledge. Is ej not supposed to be an open culture and a listening airline?
For Doug: my father had a plaque on his office wall, in what was a happy camp. "Remember, things always go wrong from the top, not the bottom!" Seems to echo your thoughts.
I did mention that to a few airline mangers, when they accused the crews of being the source of all the woes, but received blank stares. That was disappointing from our so-called leaders.
During the last 2 years it has all been written here on Prune. It would be sad to rehash it all again. The dreaded lurgy doesn't seem to go away.
Good luck to all.
I do apologise. I've re-read my post, and after reading yours it sounds unfair to lump you in with the "the other lot". I thank you for the time to comment and sympathies. My comments are aimed at the Head of rostering, i.e. the chief and not the indians.
However, I have worked for companies where the rosterer did drive the show. The change in patterns & life style was most marked when the head honcho was on leave; and that could be in either direction, good/bad/good, depending on which airline it was.
Should it not be beholden on each department to insist on the correct tools to do the job demanded of them? Perhaps that is what managers should be doing, but often it is those at the coal face who have the real knowledge. Is ej not supposed to be an open culture and a listening airline?
For Doug: my father had a plaque on his office wall, in what was a happy camp. "Remember, things always go wrong from the top, not the bottom!" Seems to echo your thoughts.
I did mention that to a few airline mangers, when they accused the crews of being the source of all the woes, but received blank stares. That was disappointing from our so-called leaders.
During the last 2 years it has all been written here on Prune. It would be sad to rehash it all again. The dreaded lurgy doesn't seem to go away.
Good luck to all.
Last edited by RAT 5; 29th Jan 2005 at 11:51.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 301
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can discuss all proīs and contraīs! I believe the mainpoint is the cut off in leave, what Iīve heared!
And 5 GDOī(which are not woth to much!) are not substituting one block of leave!
By the way, nothing seen/heared from BALPA here on the continent. (crewrooms)
And 5 GDOī(which are not woth to much!) are not substituting one block of leave!
By the way, nothing seen/heared from BALPA here on the continent. (crewrooms)
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kraut & others.
This argument about 5 GDO's, or leave or whatever is a red herring.
With efficient rostering, which I presume both sides want, and with the monthly & annual lmits, these 5 days are a drop in the duty ocean and irrelevant. They will not be able to be used, productively, because crews will alreay have reached their limits.
This whole issue is about jealousy and trying to impose equality when not comparing apples & apples.
Do not try to win the leave or 5 GDO's argument. Go for something far more meaningful, the whole roster scheme.
Why is the company, and the crews, trying to design the type of strait-jacket which best suits their position? Such restrictions help no-one. It has always been stressed that flexibility is a requirement of the industry. Howvever, it always seems to be one-sided, and that is why crews want the predictability of their free time, and want to protect that. It can be a double-edged sword. What will happen, if at the last minute, you want a day off within your duty block? Will it be allowed to swop? Predictable, days off, & GDO's, can be nice to have, but how often do events crop up too late to request a GDO? Flexibility should be a 2 way street.
Mr. A from P. Shift workers, on the ground, are governed by EU worker's directives. They can be rostered and average of 40 hours per week. They have freedom of movement at work; they need rest breaks at work; they work in enviroemntly controlled conditions, generally work to a predicatable pattern etc. etc. Contrast that to crews who can be rostered upto 190hrs pm; do not have freedom of movement over a 12 hour shift; do not enjoy rest breaks away from their work station; do work to an unpredictable sleep changing pattern; do operate in a reduced hunidity and oxygen enviroment.
This point has been made many times before, and never answered: Over 12 years ago, when Kinnock was transport commissoner and the early phases of the workers' directive was being introduced, public transport was allowed a dispensation for a short period. During the time it would take for those industries to readjust and introduce some of the measures enjoyed by ground based workers, transport companies were instructed to create 'compernsation packages for their employees.
I have never met anyone who has benefitted from such packages. Can anyone inform us if any airline, or any transport company, has introduced such a scheme? I wrote to BALPA, ECA and a Eurpoean CAA about this matter in the mid/late 90's. No repsonse except from the Eu. CAA who agreed that something should be done, but that it was not their responsibility.
The national unions were not too concerned with anyone outside the national carrier, wherein they had agreements which gave some sort of compensation already in place.
This compensation would have included issues of the roster pattern, length of duty days and days off etc. If I am in error about this EU directive, will someone please correct me. If not, why have the national unions not insisted on its introduction? Surely your 1% would be better spent in that area; indeed it should be spent in that area. The unions have access to labour lawyers, who in turn should have no problem confirming if that directive exists or not. If it is true, I can't see how CAA's can dismiss their responsibilities to ensure an EU directive, related to their jurisdiction, is not introduced. They are tigers when it comes to inspecting maintenance paperwork & procedures. Why not the same vigor concerning their own rules on rostering?
This ej issue is in danger of resurecting all the threads, which started over 2 years ago, concerning FTL's and life styles across the board. It is a great shame, and deely disappointing, that no progress seems to have been made within the profession as a whole.
This argument about 5 GDO's, or leave or whatever is a red herring.
With efficient rostering, which I presume both sides want, and with the monthly & annual lmits, these 5 days are a drop in the duty ocean and irrelevant. They will not be able to be used, productively, because crews will alreay have reached their limits.
This whole issue is about jealousy and trying to impose equality when not comparing apples & apples.
Do not try to win the leave or 5 GDO's argument. Go for something far more meaningful, the whole roster scheme.
Why is the company, and the crews, trying to design the type of strait-jacket which best suits their position? Such restrictions help no-one. It has always been stressed that flexibility is a requirement of the industry. Howvever, it always seems to be one-sided, and that is why crews want the predictability of their free time, and want to protect that. It can be a double-edged sword. What will happen, if at the last minute, you want a day off within your duty block? Will it be allowed to swop? Predictable, days off, & GDO's, can be nice to have, but how often do events crop up too late to request a GDO? Flexibility should be a 2 way street.
Mr. A from P. Shift workers, on the ground, are governed by EU worker's directives. They can be rostered and average of 40 hours per week. They have freedom of movement at work; they need rest breaks at work; they work in enviroemntly controlled conditions, generally work to a predicatable pattern etc. etc. Contrast that to crews who can be rostered upto 190hrs pm; do not have freedom of movement over a 12 hour shift; do not enjoy rest breaks away from their work station; do work to an unpredictable sleep changing pattern; do operate in a reduced hunidity and oxygen enviroment.
This point has been made many times before, and never answered: Over 12 years ago, when Kinnock was transport commissoner and the early phases of the workers' directive was being introduced, public transport was allowed a dispensation for a short period. During the time it would take for those industries to readjust and introduce some of the measures enjoyed by ground based workers, transport companies were instructed to create 'compernsation packages for their employees.
I have never met anyone who has benefitted from such packages. Can anyone inform us if any airline, or any transport company, has introduced such a scheme? I wrote to BALPA, ECA and a Eurpoean CAA about this matter in the mid/late 90's. No repsonse except from the Eu. CAA who agreed that something should be done, but that it was not their responsibility.
The national unions were not too concerned with anyone outside the national carrier, wherein they had agreements which gave some sort of compensation already in place.
This compensation would have included issues of the roster pattern, length of duty days and days off etc. If I am in error about this EU directive, will someone please correct me. If not, why have the national unions not insisted on its introduction? Surely your 1% would be better spent in that area; indeed it should be spent in that area. The unions have access to labour lawyers, who in turn should have no problem confirming if that directive exists or not. If it is true, I can't see how CAA's can dismiss their responsibilities to ensure an EU directive, related to their jurisdiction, is not introduced. They are tigers when it comes to inspecting maintenance paperwork & procedures. Why not the same vigor concerning their own rules on rostering?
This ej issue is in danger of resurecting all the threads, which started over 2 years ago, concerning FTL's and life styles across the board. It is a great shame, and deely disappointing, that no progress seems to have been made within the profession as a whole.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hangar 69
Posts: 508
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My parentsī neighbour is a truck (lorry for you Brits! 
) driver and when I hear about his īduty regulationsī and how restrictive (and protective of employees) they are, I can hardy believe that we as pilots can work continuous for 10 hours or more hours without a single break.
My neighbour can hardly believe my schedules either and is shocked to learn that the people in charge of an airplane are worked this hard. He, like the general public, thinks that our duty regulations are even more restrictive and protective.
To my knowlegde BALPA is working on this issue, but it takes strong support from itīs members to get anything done.
That means that low cost airline pilots have to join some kind of union and that is where the problem lies. Most just canīt be bothered and are too cheap/lazy to join a union, but love to complain about the inability of the union to change things, which in turn it their rationale for not joining a union.
Itīs a vicious circle and both current members and BALPA must work hard at trying to force a solution.
I remember another thread here on PPRuNe about īpilots of low cost airlines endangering the publicī but I canīt find it.
As Iīve said before, BALPA seems to have completely given up of trying to recruit at those bases.
BALPA can learn a lot from the mistakes the pilots in Ryanair made by letting management divide and conquer them as FR has more continental bases and EZY is now also expanding across Europe.
) driver and when I hear about his īduty regulationsī and how restrictive (and protective of employees) they are, I can hardy believe that we as pilots can work continuous for 10 hours or more hours without a single break.My neighbour can hardly believe my schedules either and is shocked to learn that the people in charge of an airplane are worked this hard. He, like the general public, thinks that our duty regulations are even more restrictive and protective.
To my knowlegde BALPA is working on this issue, but it takes strong support from itīs members to get anything done.
That means that low cost airline pilots have to join some kind of union and that is where the problem lies. Most just canīt be bothered and are too cheap/lazy to join a union, but love to complain about the inability of the union to change things, which in turn it their rationale for not joining a union.
Itīs a vicious circle and both current members and BALPA must work hard at trying to force a solution.
I remember another thread here on PPRuNe about īpilots of low cost airlines endangering the publicī but I canīt find it.
By the way, nothing seen/heared from BALPA here on the continent. (crewrooms)
BALPA can learn a lot from the mistakes the pilots in Ryanair made by letting management divide and conquer them as FR has more continental bases and EZY is now also expanding across Europe.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Doug, and all others:
"To my knowlegde BALPA is working on this issue, but it takes strong support from itīs members to get anything done."
It's called leadership (or lack of). It's what no chief pilot, bar one, has had in my expereince; no airline management and definitely no union general secretary.
They have all be an abject failure for decades. The top men in each case were there for the glory and the power, not for the good they could do, whether it be to their representatives or the share holders.
Fuddle & muddle.
"To my knowlegde BALPA is working on this issue, but it takes strong support from itīs members to get anything done."
It's called leadership (or lack of). It's what no chief pilot, bar one, has had in my expereince; no airline management and definitely no union general secretary.
They have all be an abject failure for decades. The top men in each case were there for the glory and the power, not for the good they could do, whether it be to their representatives or the share holders.
Fuddle & muddle.
Wiz,
I could be wrong but I don't think RAT 5 was including the CC in his statement, but was including the Union General Secretary. Considering the past general secretary this would be a fairly valid point.
I could be wrong but I don't think RAT 5 was including the CC in his statement, but was including the Union General Secretary. Considering the past general secretary this would be a fairly valid point.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wizofoz:
The answer to both points is No. I quit the aggrevation some years ago, and like others found a suitable niche in avaiation and discovered another life hiding latently outside my roster.
I'm just trying to pass on a few snippets to others who feel themselves in the same boat, but with more time and future to do something about it. I tried, via 2 national unions & the ECA, to try and persuade them that something needed to be done, and offered comments, advice and the time to help. Stoney silence. I moved around testing various pastures, but there were no greener ones, so I looked outside the glamour, went a little on the wild & rough side, and put a smile back into aviation.
Good luck to those with time enough, and energy enough to keep at it.
Just think; if you do nothing the airline world will controlled by the likes of Lorenzo, the ex-bosses of Air Europe it. & Volare, indeed the ex-bosses of every potentially good airline that was led down the swany. Horrors, some of them are still lively enough to start up again. AGH!
The answer to both points is No. I quit the aggrevation some years ago, and like others found a suitable niche in avaiation and discovered another life hiding latently outside my roster.
I'm just trying to pass on a few snippets to others who feel themselves in the same boat, but with more time and future to do something about it. I tried, via 2 national unions & the ECA, to try and persuade them that something needed to be done, and offered comments, advice and the time to help. Stoney silence. I moved around testing various pastures, but there were no greener ones, so I looked outside the glamour, went a little on the wild & rough side, and put a smile back into aviation.
Good luck to those with time enough, and energy enough to keep at it.
Just think; if you do nothing the airline world will controlled by the likes of Lorenzo, the ex-bosses of Air Europe it. & Volare, indeed the ex-bosses of every potentially good airline that was led down the swany. Horrors, some of them are still lively enough to start up again. AGH!
