People Leaving Ezy For Greener Pastures.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 742
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From: Preferably on terra firma.
Just a thought...
I don't know if easyJet are recognised by Balpa yet - I guess so. Therefore you have a certain percentage of the masses who are Balpa members. However there will always be a percentage who are not members but who will be happy to receive all that the Balpa guys work hard to achieve - all at no cost to themselves.
Just a thought...
I don't know if easyJet are recognised by Balpa yet - I guess so. Therefore you have a certain percentage of the masses who are Balpa members. However there will always be a percentage who are not members but who will be happy to receive all that the Balpa guys work hard to achieve - all at no cost to themselves.
Just a thought...
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
From: Peoples Republic of EU
Hey if you work for the civil service or a bank in Aberdeen and your next posting for promotion is in London you've got to take it, or miss out on the promotion. True you'll get a relocation package but I don't expect many people would dream of commuting. You go where the job is.
In my previous company commands could be at any of the bases and you were expected to move accordingly. People did. I moved twice.
Commuting isn't a long term strategy either judging by the number of people who are leaving easyJet to take jobs in their home country. If eJ had the best terms in the industry people still wouldn't remain in eJ and commute. They'd rather stay on home turf.
If people have been given a hard sell, well true that would be unfair and I have sympathy for the Dutch who were taken on with the promise of a AMS base. They have been well and truly shafted.
Disrespectful of my colleagues? I don't think so. I respect them for commuting but there are more important issues in these negotiations which affect us all . My commuting colleagues don't see themselves in eJ as a long term career principally because of the commuting. This is a short term option, albeit a painful one.
One thing about getting your command at another base, well you've had a net increase of £1000 so why not use that to pay for your ticket?
As you say Slim20 it's about lifestyle. 5 and 3 clear days off would make it a lot easier for us all.
Fence sitters need to join before the negotaitions are finished.
In my previous company commands could be at any of the bases and you were expected to move accordingly. People did. I moved twice.
Commuting isn't a long term strategy either judging by the number of people who are leaving easyJet to take jobs in their home country. If eJ had the best terms in the industry people still wouldn't remain in eJ and commute. They'd rather stay on home turf.
If people have been given a hard sell, well true that would be unfair and I have sympathy for the Dutch who were taken on with the promise of a AMS base. They have been well and truly shafted.
Disrespectful of my colleagues? I don't think so. I respect them for commuting but there are more important issues in these negotiations which affect us all . My commuting colleagues don't see themselves in eJ as a long term career principally because of the commuting. This is a short term option, albeit a painful one.
One thing about getting your command at another base, well you've had a net increase of £1000 so why not use that to pay for your ticket?
As you say Slim20 it's about lifestyle. 5 and 3 clear days off would make it a lot easier for us all.
Fence sitters need to join before the negotaitions are finished.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 196
Likes: 0
From: england
guys if you can't even display some solidarity on pprune , the management with be laughing their legs off! Your Company Council should be negotiating ALL the points raised including staff travel as it seems to be inferior to that given by any other airline of this size. I wish you luck..and you'll definitely need it. I've joined and subsequently left BALPA several times over the years. Each time I left because I saw them do next to nothing to benefit my lifestyle. I hope your CC can do a better job.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
From: Germany
Part of the crazy rosters issue goes to the increasing probability of an accident. Sure enough. However, upstream from crashes and atrocities due to exhausted pilots, I think we all should think about the right to have normal private lives and health.
Why give up on our health and private lives when everybody's saving them in more "regular" industries ? I think these are issues important enough to be fought for. I can feel no sense of luxury in those requests. IT IS NORMAL AND REQUIRED.
Or else, let's draw off 100 years of social improvements and get slowly back to abominable situations of deep physical exhaust that miners had to suffer.
I can read you guys can have up to 7/2. What is next ? 8/2 or even 9/2 ??? Or Let's stick to 7/2 but early mornings only ?
I know accountants only see that very bottom line which needs to be as positive as possible with a "pounds" after the figures.
Why don't you tell them to charge maybe an extra 1 or 2 pounds on each ticket to cover possible extra cost (if any exists) or else aircraft are grounded because you too have a life.
Ryanair get 4/3. Lufthansa get roughly a 4/3, as well as Air France. Why not EasyJet ?
Even if you live 5 minutes from work, 6/3 or 7/2 becomes painful after a while. I'm on a much nicer pattern and I'm always happy by the time holidays're approaching. That's why I can't understand how EZ pilots can take that.
Why give up on our health and private lives when everybody's saving them in more "regular" industries ? I think these are issues important enough to be fought for. I can feel no sense of luxury in those requests. IT IS NORMAL AND REQUIRED.
Or else, let's draw off 100 years of social improvements and get slowly back to abominable situations of deep physical exhaust that miners had to suffer.
I can read you guys can have up to 7/2. What is next ? 8/2 or even 9/2 ??? Or Let's stick to 7/2 but early mornings only ?
I know accountants only see that very bottom line which needs to be as positive as possible with a "pounds" after the figures.
Why don't you tell them to charge maybe an extra 1 or 2 pounds on each ticket to cover possible extra cost (if any exists) or else aircraft are grounded because you too have a life.
Ryanair get 4/3. Lufthansa get roughly a 4/3, as well as Air France. Why not EasyJet ?
Even if you live 5 minutes from work, 6/3 or 7/2 becomes painful after a while. I'm on a much nicer pattern and I'm always happy by the time holidays're approaching. That's why I can't understand how EZ pilots can take that.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
From: suitcase
Glad someone brought up the AMS base so I don't have to :-0 but then again I have accepted it through the years, complaining doesn't make ya much happier either does it!!
As the topic name and my new username suggests... Im going to (hopefully) greener pastures!!
Good luck with the 'pay' review.
The dragon
As the topic name and my new username suggests... Im going to (hopefully) greener pastures!!
Good luck with the 'pay' review.
The dragon
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
From: holland
sad world
First of all I'd like to reply to mr. Pointy Pilot, who said
and tell him: forget it mate!, the public's memory is shorter than the attention span of a Labrador puppy. Beancounters apparantly do not think like this. A human life has a price and if this price(even factored by 140) is lower than a decent scheduling system... Well, you do the math....
I vividly remember swissair and crossair's incidents and accidents, and look who is still flying : their "lovechild"* SWISS ! The public LOVES to forget accidents especially when it comes to ticketprices or reputation (which the swiss DEFINATELY do not deserve)
Secondly, the sentence
by mr. Codman has been spinning around in my head the the entire day and at first, I must say it sounded funny enough, but people, give it some more thought.... Isn't this sad ?!??!?!?!
*please no flame wars on swiss!
If EZY rostering is leaving pilots as tired as some make out it will only be a matter of time before there is an accident, surely? Then the whole airline is gone.
I vividly remember swissair and crossair's incidents and accidents, and look who is still flying : their "lovechild"* SWISS ! The public LOVES to forget accidents especially when it comes to ticketprices or reputation (which the swiss DEFINATELY do not deserve)
Secondly, the sentence
Glad to see that orange is really the same sort of murky brown that the rest of us live with.
*please no flame wars on swiss!
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
From: UK
Based on most peoples opinions on this thread, there are quite clearly problems. Ultimately if an accident does happen and Easyjet have worked you up to the CAP371 limitations, the CAA are the people who are in the wrong. The current limitations are too old for low cost carriers! If rosters are harsh, saw a pretty mean one on the thread, send it to the CAA and request a response. If this continually happens, pressure will increase and the CAA will hopefully bring in even stricter FTL's than the new one's about to be introduced.
I have just written to my MP asking him how a lorry driver, driving a truck full of oranges is only allowed to drive for four hours and then, legally he must take a 40 min break. When an airline pilot moving about around 600 people per day (not oranges), operating for 10 to 12 hours per day with minimum rest between days, working for six days in a row does not have a legal break. I know at Ezy turnarounds are about 20 mins, is it possible to have break in 20 mins after setting up the a/c for the next sector refuelling and more importantly stocking up on duty free? I would like to know!!
I have just written to my MP asking him how a lorry driver, driving a truck full of oranges is only allowed to drive for four hours and then, legally he must take a 40 min break. When an airline pilot moving about around 600 people per day (not oranges), operating for 10 to 12 hours per day with minimum rest between days, working for six days in a row does not have a legal break. I know at Ezy turnarounds are about 20 mins, is it possible to have break in 20 mins after setting up the a/c for the next sector refuelling and more importantly stocking up on duty free? I would like to know!!
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 197
Likes: 0
From: UK
Tabasco
Sounds pretty horrible to me.
What sort of duty hours did you do in the week?...
As an outsider is "not enough crew" a possible concern, guess with crews going onto A319 a potential issue??.
Do you think EZY should intro turn times like they have at BA where the crews have forced meal breaks built into the schedules?
Sounds pretty horrible to me.
What sort of duty hours did you do in the week?...
As an outsider is "not enough crew" a possible concern, guess with crews going onto A319 a potential issue??.
Do you think EZY should intro turn times like they have at BA where the crews have forced meal breaks built into the schedules?
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
From: England
A typical "week" for me is 4,4,4,6,4,6 - though I have had 3 6's in a row. First 3 earlies, then 3 lates.
A couple of points, building on what has been said:
Breaks:
On our 6 sector days, you cannot eat and comply with SOP's. There simply isn't enough time to eat and do everything else in the cruise. So you either don't eat, or break SOP's. Most pilots decide which is least dangerous and take that route. You simply do not stop for 10 hours.
Fatigue:
The worst part is day 4. For days 1-3 you have been getting up at 0330 and going to bed at 1930. On day 4 you are working up to 2300... And normally both of us are on the same pattern, so the "yawn factor" is high for the last couple of sectors. Our FLIDRAS man has identified a trend of significantly more errors on day 4, but the conclusion was that this was the day that "tiredness had caught up with us, but we hadn't yet realised it".
6/3 or 5/3:
Many bases work long 4 sector days (so should eat well!). They run out of hours on day 5, so don't work a day 6. So they are working 5/4 and so are likely to resist 5/3 change....
Staff travel:
The few times I have tried to use it, I have had to pay full price. The loads have varied from 80 to 135 (I always ask, as it always annoys me!!)
Lifestyle:
I hate this word. To me, workers who want to "improve lifestyle" want a bigger car for working fewer hours. If only it was known as "safe working practices" or "work pattern", or even "fatigue management".
People leaving:
Why should eJ worry about people leaving - when they make such a huge profit on each TRSS new entry?
How to make it better (IMO):
5/3, where all 5 are earlies or all 5 are lates.
Staff travel standby option.
Mandatory meal/rest break on days where all 6 sectors are less than 50 minutes. And not after the last sector!
Just reporting what I do and see. eJ is very nearly a great company - good business model and good people. Shame they're all worn out!
Stu
A couple of points, building on what has been said:
Breaks:
On our 6 sector days, you cannot eat and comply with SOP's. There simply isn't enough time to eat and do everything else in the cruise. So you either don't eat, or break SOP's. Most pilots decide which is least dangerous and take that route. You simply do not stop for 10 hours.
Fatigue:
The worst part is day 4. For days 1-3 you have been getting up at 0330 and going to bed at 1930. On day 4 you are working up to 2300... And normally both of us are on the same pattern, so the "yawn factor" is high for the last couple of sectors. Our FLIDRAS man has identified a trend of significantly more errors on day 4, but the conclusion was that this was the day that "tiredness had caught up with us, but we hadn't yet realised it".
6/3 or 5/3:
Many bases work long 4 sector days (so should eat well!). They run out of hours on day 5, so don't work a day 6. So they are working 5/4 and so are likely to resist 5/3 change....
Staff travel:
The few times I have tried to use it, I have had to pay full price. The loads have varied from 80 to 135 (I always ask, as it always annoys me!!)
Lifestyle:
I hate this word. To me, workers who want to "improve lifestyle" want a bigger car for working fewer hours. If only it was known as "safe working practices" or "work pattern", or even "fatigue management".
People leaving:
Why should eJ worry about people leaving - when they make such a huge profit on each TRSS new entry?
How to make it better (IMO):
5/3, where all 5 are earlies or all 5 are lates.
Staff travel standby option.
Mandatory meal/rest break on days where all 6 sectors are less than 50 minutes. And not after the last sector!
Just reporting what I do and see. eJ is very nearly a great company - good business model and good people. Shame they're all worn out!
Stu
Grim Sleeper
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
From: UK
love to know which bases are working 5/4!!!! Put me in for a transfer....!!!!!
How can that possibly work? I thought the EZY principle was early start day 1, late finish day 6? Seems a bit wasteful to have some bases only working a 5 day week.
Besides, if that's how it works there, why the clucking bell can't we all have that?
How can that possibly work? I thought the EZY principle was early start day 1, late finish day 6? Seems a bit wasteful to have some bases only working a 5 day week.
Besides, if that's how it works there, why the clucking bell can't we all have that?
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: GOD'S COUNTRY
Banzai Eagle
To answer your question: Tues - Tues with one day off I did about 58 duty hours. But as previously stated the earlies (max 3 in a row) are relatively short 8 hour days; the real killer I find is day 4 when you come from 3 earlies finishing @ 1330ish to start mid-day for either a 6/4 sector (10 hour day) finishing @ 2300ish (if you are on time). This is why I think the way ahead for the company & the fliers (I include the cabin crew deliberately here) is to press as hard as we can for the week of constant earlies followed by the subsequent week of lates.
There are other issues involved in what has been a successful business plan so far; including Staff Travel. But I honestly believe if BALPA & easyJet can sort the MAIN PROBLEM, which is the rostering ie 5 & 3, earlies then lates, the other issues might sort themselves out in a way beneficial to all parties in the long run.
HERES HOPING BUT I COULD BE WRONG!!
To answer your question: Tues - Tues with one day off I did about 58 duty hours. But as previously stated the earlies (max 3 in a row) are relatively short 8 hour days; the real killer I find is day 4 when you come from 3 earlies finishing @ 1330ish to start mid-day for either a 6/4 sector (10 hour day) finishing @ 2300ish (if you are on time). This is why I think the way ahead for the company & the fliers (I include the cabin crew deliberately here) is to press as hard as we can for the week of constant earlies followed by the subsequent week of lates.
There are other issues involved in what has been a successful business plan so far; including Staff Travel. But I honestly believe if BALPA & easyJet can sort the MAIN PROBLEM, which is the rostering ie 5 & 3, earlies then lates, the other issues might sort themselves out in a way beneficial to all parties in the long run.
HERES HOPING BUT I COULD BE WRONG!!
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
From: london
Banzi Eagle BA crew do not have meal breaks built into their turnarounds.
Typically, flying at EOG is done with the same regime as EJ except our turnarounds are 35mins and four day sectors are then norm, starts at 4:50 finishes at 00:20,when staying on the same aircraft, the extra time is allowed for the catering transfers, and contract cleaners to do their jobs......
When I see all the moans above they are exaclty the same as you hear in the crewrooms at BA, and I am slowly coming to the conclusion that there are no more "nice" jobs in aviation where beancounters drive everything and everybody to the lowest common denominator. Sadly the only thing that may stop this trend is an serious incident
Typically, flying at EOG is done with the same regime as EJ except our turnarounds are 35mins and four day sectors are then norm, starts at 4:50 finishes at 00:20,when staying on the same aircraft, the extra time is allowed for the catering transfers, and contract cleaners to do their jobs......
When I see all the moans above they are exaclty the same as you hear in the crewrooms at BA, and I am slowly coming to the conclusion that there are no more "nice" jobs in aviation where beancounters drive everything and everybody to the lowest common denominator. Sadly the only thing that may stop this trend is an serious incident
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 898
Likes: 73
From: UK
I agree with Da Dog.
Flying for a 'low cost' airline is hard work because they are trying to get the most out of their workforce to keep their ticket prices at rock bottom.
Flying short haul for a 'high cost' airline is just as bad because they are now competing with the low cost airlines. Everything at BA Gatwick, is about competing with EasyJet.
In my opinion, flying short haul is no longer a career. You can do it for about 5 years, maybe even 10, but then you have to go long haul. It's like being a stock broker; you do it for a short time, or the lifestyle will kill you.
Why have things become like this? I guess it's because us pilots are not sticking togther enough and saying enough is enough. It does not help when your union reps come out with comments such as, "at least you have still got a job!"
Flying for a 'low cost' airline is hard work because they are trying to get the most out of their workforce to keep their ticket prices at rock bottom.
Flying short haul for a 'high cost' airline is just as bad because they are now competing with the low cost airlines. Everything at BA Gatwick, is about competing with EasyJet.
In my opinion, flying short haul is no longer a career. You can do it for about 5 years, maybe even 10, but then you have to go long haul. It's like being a stock broker; you do it for a short time, or the lifestyle will kill you.
Why have things become like this? I guess it's because us pilots are not sticking togther enough and saying enough is enough. It does not help when your union reps come out with comments such as, "at least you have still got a job!"
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 0
Likes: 1
From: UK
GS Alpha and Da Dog
I think you're both wrong there.
Ryanair for example get significantly more flying hours from their crews than easyjet, but the threads on here about easyjet rostering far outnumberany other airline.
Where easyjet are concerned its all about the appalling attitude to the front line staff displayed from the top, and that disgraceful culture has filtered a long way down.
There can be nobody more cost conscious than O'Leary, but he knows that if you pay guys well and even more importantly give them decent work patterns it is good business.
easy's problems are just beginning, their continuing contemptuous attitude to staff is coming home to roost!
I think you're both wrong there.
Ryanair for example get significantly more flying hours from their crews than easyjet, but the threads on here about easyjet rostering far outnumberany other airline.
Where easyjet are concerned its all about the appalling attitude to the front line staff displayed from the top, and that disgraceful culture has filtered a long way down.
There can be nobody more cost conscious than O'Leary, but he knows that if you pay guys well and even more importantly give them decent work patterns it is good business.
easy's problems are just beginning, their continuing contemptuous attitude to staff is coming home to roost!
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,777
Likes: 9
From: Blighty
They would survive a first accident, the second would be hard. And it doesn't have to be the same airline. The press are already on to the working practices of the LCOs - as the recent Sunday Times article shows.
With the increase in LCO operations, it's a matter of time IMHO.
With the increase in LCO operations, it's a matter of time IMHO.