Emirates Direct Entry Commands (merged)
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Rumor has it that DE's be shortly posted on the net. Although it is probably better to promote from within, the company needs extra lift rapidly and experienced commanders NOW as they can fill all these planes they say, it could also be that these 340s won't remain in the fleet, hence the DE contracts and not investing more into full training. Keep in mind that it is a good thing that the company is doing well.
As for the pay, the suggested 12k a month plus per-diem, transport, accomodation,etc. is pretty fair, Remember that these are wide-body heavy metals, and contract folks always make more than permanent staff since they don't have a vested long term interest in the company-plus that can only improve the pay for all of us worldwide.
Good luck to those in a bargaining position!
As for the pay, the suggested 12k a month plus per-diem, transport, accomodation,etc. is pretty fair, Remember that these are wide-body heavy metals, and contract folks always make more than permanent staff since they don't have a vested long term interest in the company-plus that can only improve the pay for all of us worldwide.
Good luck to those in a bargaining position!
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I don't agree with direct entry captain's, but accept that one has to look at the situation realistically, if EK has no-one elligable for an upgrade in the FO ranks then this is the only solution. However, if a direct entry captain starts on U$12000.00 plus, plus, plus... it begs the question, is that because the heavy metal he's gonna be driving from the left seat is in some way different to the heavy metal I drive from the left seat?
Because if it's not, then I presume he'll be doing nearly twice the amount of flying I'm doing.
Because if it's not, then I presume he'll be doing nearly twice the amount of flying I'm doing.
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Warlock2000, have you ever worked a contract job, or have you always been in 'semi permanent' employment?
Eight years ago I was on a contract in your neck of the woods making $8500 US per month tax free, HOTAC inc., Transport inc., Business Class BA to and from the point of employment.
Oh...by the way...it wasn't an A340.
It wasn't even a heavy.
In fact...hell...it wasn't even a jet!
I think cost of living etc have increased somewhat in the last eight years. 12K for an A340 skipper sounds like a bargain by comparison, doesn't it. Maybe you're selling us all short mate.
Peligroso, your permanent job is worth the pay cut, innit? I mean, you get to be (gasp) an EK driver!!!
If you don't like the terms you could always leave and go freelance.
Or form a union and demand a pay rise.
While your management can read this thread and see how you EK boys are so happy, and how you continue to encourage throngs of wannabes to jump on the bandwagon, why on gods earth would they ever improve your terms voluntarily??? Absolutely no need!
Eight years ago I was on a contract in your neck of the woods making $8500 US per month tax free, HOTAC inc., Transport inc., Business Class BA to and from the point of employment.
Oh...by the way...it wasn't an A340.
It wasn't even a heavy.
In fact...hell...it wasn't even a jet!
I think cost of living etc have increased somewhat in the last eight years. 12K for an A340 skipper sounds like a bargain by comparison, doesn't it. Maybe you're selling us all short mate.
Peligroso, your permanent job is worth the pay cut, innit? I mean, you get to be (gasp) an EK driver!!!
If you don't like the terms you could always leave and go freelance.
Or form a union and demand a pay rise.
While your management can read this thread and see how you EK boys are so happy, and how you continue to encourage throngs of wannabes to jump on the bandwagon, why on gods earth would they ever improve your terms voluntarily??? Absolutely no need!
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Warlock 2000 The sum I mentioned is the MINIMUM!!! If EK want to entice say 57/58 year old A340 Captains away from say Virgin.Air Canada,Cathay and others then that is not really a huge sum and unless they are prepared to take A330 Captains from UK Charter Companies who might like a change of air for their last few years in aviation then I doubt if they will get many takers!!
Pontious Lets wait and see shall we??#
Warlock 2000 I forgot to mention I would also require 2 days for travelling in addition to the 8 Block days.!!
This salary in line with China Airlines and Korean and Japanese Cargo Outfits.
El Peligroso If you live in the Third World then expect a Third World Salary!!
Pontious Lets wait and see shall we??#
Warlock 2000 I forgot to mention I would also require 2 days for travelling in addition to the 8 Block days.!!
This salary in line with China Airlines and Korean and Japanese Cargo Outfits.
El Peligroso If you live in the Third World then expect a Third World Salary!!
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Suspect that if A340 DE Commanders are required, EK may indeed have to pay the going rate....which just might be a little lower than anticipated by some, provided they are obtained from UL...or perhaps ex-SQ.
Always amused by a few European guys who expect to travel to the desert and inform the companies based there how to run the show. In many cases, they set a consistantly abysmal standard, which they generally fail to achieve.
Always amused by a few European guys who expect to travel to the desert and inform the companies based there how to run the show. In many cases, they set a consistantly abysmal standard, which they generally fail to achieve.
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Max
You hit the nail on the head.
While your management can read this thread and see how you EK boys are so happy, and how you continue to encourage throngs of wannabes to jump on the bandwagon, why on gods earth would they ever improve your terms voluntarily??? Absolutely no need!
I am constantly amazed by the continual ranting of a few here who claim that getting a job with EK is akin to winning the lottery, and moving to Dubai is like a trip to paradise.
Both statements are far from the truth.
You will also find that most of the drivers here have come from jobs that were less attractive than EK. That is a far cry from saying that EK is great. It is just better than their alternative.
Make no mistake, I am one of those people. The difference is that I am fully aware that we are underpaid on two counts. Firstly we are flying the biggest and newest twins in the world, on long haul routes, for well below the going rate for an "established" airline, and secondly we are living in the Middle East.
People should be clear that whilst Dubai is by far the safest and most cosmopolitan city in the Gulf region, it is still only a stones throw from all the breeding grounds of recent troubles. That should be reflected to some degree in ones pay packet. I don't believe that it is.
So in a nutshell, the guys that are here are happy because it is (generally) the best offer they could get, but I strongly suspect that in order to entice an experienced 340 guys away from a good job, they will need to pay well above our first year captains salary. If they don't, I would say that they are unlikely to get any candidates that would represent a better choice than upgrading our F/O's
Cop U Later
The Rev
You hit the nail on the head.
While your management can read this thread and see how you EK boys are so happy, and how you continue to encourage throngs of wannabes to jump on the bandwagon, why on gods earth would they ever improve your terms voluntarily??? Absolutely no need!
I am constantly amazed by the continual ranting of a few here who claim that getting a job with EK is akin to winning the lottery, and moving to Dubai is like a trip to paradise.
Both statements are far from the truth.
You will also find that most of the drivers here have come from jobs that were less attractive than EK. That is a far cry from saying that EK is great. It is just better than their alternative.
Make no mistake, I am one of those people. The difference is that I am fully aware that we are underpaid on two counts. Firstly we are flying the biggest and newest twins in the world, on long haul routes, for well below the going rate for an "established" airline, and secondly we are living in the Middle East.
People should be clear that whilst Dubai is by far the safest and most cosmopolitan city in the Gulf region, it is still only a stones throw from all the breeding grounds of recent troubles. That should be reflected to some degree in ones pay packet. I don't believe that it is.
So in a nutshell, the guys that are here are happy because it is (generally) the best offer they could get, but I strongly suspect that in order to entice an experienced 340 guys away from a good job, they will need to pay well above our first year captains salary. If they don't, I would say that they are unlikely to get any candidates that would represent a better choice than upgrading our F/O's
Cop U Later
The Rev
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It's Official!
From Vice President Flight Ops...
DIRECT ENTRY COMMANDS
"Given the planned expansion of the Emirates fleet a considerable amount of resource planning has been conducted. This work has demonstrated that without reducing the minimum criteria for command, the company will have a shortfall of command.
The company has discussed altering the minimum requirements, but to preserve quality & operational standards, this will not be done. Therefore in order to satisfy the company’s immediate & future growth plans the decision has been made that Emirates will provide an entry point for Direct Entry Captains. Consequentially, we will shortly commence advertising for Direct Entry Captains to join EK.
Emirates is committed to balancing Direct Entry Captains requirements against First Officers who meet command criteria so that the latter group are not unduly disadvantaged.
The minimum requirements for Direct Entry Captains will be:
- 10,000 total time on joining EK.
- 3,000 command, on type or wide-body, immediately prior to joining EK.
- 4,000 Hard Jet hours.
- Preference to type rated & instructors.
- Age under 56, at commencement date.
We recognise that there will be a number of existing First Officers within Emirates who meet the above criteria.
Therefore if you had 10,000 hours and 3,000 command (wide body or type), when you joined Emirates then we will consider your suitability for and immediate command.
If you believe that you meet the Direct Entry Criteria and would like to be considered then please contact your Fleet Manager as soon as possible."
millerscourt,
"I forgot to mention I would also require 2 days for travelling in addition to the 8 Block days.!! This salary in line with China Airlines and Korean and Japanese Cargo Outfits."
So why are you hinting desperatly for an EK job and not working there?
maxalt,
"Eight years ago I was on a contract in your neck of the woods making $8500 US per month tax free, HOTAC inc., Transport inc., Business Class BA to and from the point of employment.
Oh...by the way...it wasn't an A340.
It wasn't even a heavy.
In fact...hell...it wasn't even a jet!"
WOW! if I was a girl I'd definately go out with you!
DIRECT ENTRY COMMANDS
"Given the planned expansion of the Emirates fleet a considerable amount of resource planning has been conducted. This work has demonstrated that without reducing the minimum criteria for command, the company will have a shortfall of command.
The company has discussed altering the minimum requirements, but to preserve quality & operational standards, this will not be done. Therefore in order to satisfy the company’s immediate & future growth plans the decision has been made that Emirates will provide an entry point for Direct Entry Captains. Consequentially, we will shortly commence advertising for Direct Entry Captains to join EK.
Emirates is committed to balancing Direct Entry Captains requirements against First Officers who meet command criteria so that the latter group are not unduly disadvantaged.
The minimum requirements for Direct Entry Captains will be:
- 10,000 total time on joining EK.
- 3,000 command, on type or wide-body, immediately prior to joining EK.
- 4,000 Hard Jet hours.
- Preference to type rated & instructors.
- Age under 56, at commencement date.
We recognise that there will be a number of existing First Officers within Emirates who meet the above criteria.
Therefore if you had 10,000 hours and 3,000 command (wide body or type), when you joined Emirates then we will consider your suitability for and immediate command.
If you believe that you meet the Direct Entry Criteria and would like to be considered then please contact your Fleet Manager as soon as possible."
millerscourt,
"I forgot to mention I would also require 2 days for travelling in addition to the 8 Block days.!! This salary in line with China Airlines and Korean and Japanese Cargo Outfits."
So why are you hinting desperatly for an EK job and not working there?
maxalt,
"Eight years ago I was on a contract in your neck of the woods making $8500 US per month tax free, HOTAC inc., Transport inc., Business Class BA to and from the point of employment.
Oh...by the way...it wasn't an A340.
It wasn't even a heavy.
In fact...hell...it wasn't even a jet!"
WOW! if I was a girl I'd definately go out with you!
Last edited by Warlock2000; 18th Sep 2003 at 15:36.
Was only three years ago we went through pretty much the same sort of thing. Anyone remember the email to the mates about "the jobs as promised"??? Wonder if the pilots meetings will be as well attended as the one back then.
You would think with the amount of concrete holding Dubai together we could use some to keep the goal posts in the same place.
Don
You would think with the amount of concrete holding Dubai together we could use some to keep the goal posts in the same place.
Don
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Warlock 2000 I am in the Far East and feel like a change of scene back to the Middle East ( or the Gulf as dumpvalve prefers!!)
Travelling from Far East too long would prefer shorter times!!
Sounds as if EK will also take B777 Direct Captains as well from above message.
Donpizmeov Yes that South African was right after all,just a little bit out on his timing!!
PS Is 20000 hours enough for EK or is that too many??
If EK were to get their act together I could be out on the line within 2 weeks of joining.
Travelling from Far East too long would prefer shorter times!!
Sounds as if EK will also take B777 Direct Captains as well from above message.
Donpizmeov Yes that South African was right after all,just a little bit out on his timing!!
PS Is 20000 hours enough for EK or is that too many??
If EK were to get their act together I could be out on the line within 2 weeks of joining.
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Millerscourt,
Well done mate, 20,000 hours!!
Out of interest, does having 20,000 hours mean that you are twice as good a pilot as a pilot with 10,000 hours.
Holy **** you must be 20 times as good a pilot as one with 1,000 hours. Quick if you get your application in pronto they'll be banging your door down coz they won't need 56 captains they'll be able to get away with 36. Now thats progress.
In fact call the RAF and they'll name you Red 1-9, those mates with 2000 hours would be huuugely impressed by your display of flying skill. Is there a formation button on the EICAS, if not have a chat with old man boeing to sort that out. Come to think of it there isn't one on the 340 either!
Don't you love aviation, so driven by seniority that people actually start to believe their own press and think that they get better with age. Like prostitution its one of the few professions that you can get into without displaying any natural aptitude or ability, in fact if you have enough money you can even buy your way in.
Sorry mate, I must apologise I didn't realise that your 20,000 hours was gained in the Womens Royal Auxillary Balloon Corps?
Ghost
P.S. If you get in quick, I won't be fingered for the 340. While you get your bunk time, I'll be on the beach.
Well done mate, 20,000 hours!!
Out of interest, does having 20,000 hours mean that you are twice as good a pilot as a pilot with 10,000 hours.
Holy **** you must be 20 times as good a pilot as one with 1,000 hours. Quick if you get your application in pronto they'll be banging your door down coz they won't need 56 captains they'll be able to get away with 36. Now thats progress.
In fact call the RAF and they'll name you Red 1-9, those mates with 2000 hours would be huuugely impressed by your display of flying skill. Is there a formation button on the EICAS, if not have a chat with old man boeing to sort that out. Come to think of it there isn't one on the 340 either!
Don't you love aviation, so driven by seniority that people actually start to believe their own press and think that they get better with age. Like prostitution its one of the few professions that you can get into without displaying any natural aptitude or ability, in fact if you have enough money you can even buy your way in.
Sorry mate, I must apologise I didn't realise that your 20,000 hours was gained in the Womens Royal Auxillary Balloon Corps?
Ghost
P.S. If you get in quick, I won't be fingered for the 340. While you get your bunk time, I'll be on the beach.
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millerscourt,
If EK were to get their act together I could be out on the line within 2 weeks of joining.
Good luck for the interview, you'll probably need it more than most!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To those FO's currently at EK affected by the newest changes, I believe the powers that be have explored all posible avenues and unfortunately there seems to be no other solution to meet the current expansion plans. My heart truely goes out to you. Stay the professionals that you are - your turn WILL come!
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millerscourt, maybe the veneer of self confidence at EK is starting to crack? All I know is that if I'd given up a jet command at a good company to go to EK and sit in the RHS with a promise...I'd be getting worried, and rather pissed off about now.
Fortunately I'd be one of the lucky ones who could 'contact my fleet Captain about a command' right away. Phew.
Fortunately I'd be one of the lucky ones who could 'contact my fleet Captain about a command' right away. Phew.
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Millerscourt,
Touche!!
I thought it was quite a jovial tone really unlikely some of the stuff that you have posted. If you don't like some of your own medicine then don't rise to the bait!! Here's to a truce.
Best regards,
The Pratt
Warlock,
I disagree with your statement:
They have a set of cast iron number rules that they use. Just about every other airline has hours for guidance and then manages the situation. As I was trying to point out to Millerscourt not all flying hours are necessarily equal.
The guy that has been flying in his MD80 on short sectors in punk weather in Northern Scandinavia and the guy in the military jet surrounded by loads of other aircraft has probably made more decisions over the last year than I have had hot dinners. (Actually, maybe not, I do seem to eat too much at the moment)
Long Haul flying in itself has changed. Although we have fun with the old farts , their 1000 hours of experience in the 70s involved far more decision making and aircraft handling than is gained in a modern automated cockpit. Things used to go wrong a lot more often.
The only true way to assess pilots for command is to look at their flying ability, professionalism, personal qualities and what they have actually done.
In all our companies we know of F/Os that could hop into the left seat at 3000 hours and Captains that should be returned to the right with 10,000.
Also:
That does not sound to me as if they mean they will upgrade all available and then employ DECs. DECs will be employed ahead of eligible F/Os.
Ghost
Touche!!
I thought it was quite a jovial tone really unlikely some of the stuff that you have posted. If you don't like some of your own medicine then don't rise to the bait!! Here's to a truce.
Best regards,
The Pratt
Warlock,
I disagree with your statement:
To those FO's currently at EK affected by the newest changes, I believe the powers that be have explored all posible avenues and unfortunately there seems to be no other solution to meet the current expansion plans.
The guy that has been flying in his MD80 on short sectors in punk weather in Northern Scandinavia and the guy in the military jet surrounded by loads of other aircraft has probably made more decisions over the last year than I have had hot dinners. (Actually, maybe not, I do seem to eat too much at the moment)
Long Haul flying in itself has changed. Although we have fun with the old farts , their 1000 hours of experience in the 70s involved far more decision making and aircraft handling than is gained in a modern automated cockpit. Things used to go wrong a lot more often.
The only true way to assess pilots for command is to look at their flying ability, professionalism, personal qualities and what they have actually done.
In all our companies we know of F/Os that could hop into the left seat at 3000 hours and Captains that should be returned to the right with 10,000.
Also:
EK is committed to balancing DEC requirements against First Officers who meet command criteria so that the latter group are not unduly disadvantaged!
Ghost
Last edited by Ghostflyer; 1st Mar 2004 at 14:20.
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Warlock2000 Re: Your post of 18 Sept
¡°From Vice President Flight Ops (EK)...
DIRECT ENTRY COMMANDS
"Given the planned expansion of the Emirates fleet a considerable amount of resource planning has been conducted. This work has demonstrated that without reducing the minimum criteria for command, the company will have a shortfall of command.
The company has discussed altering the minimum requirements, but to preserve quality & operational standards, this will not be done. Therefore in order to satisfy the company¡¯s immediate & future growth plans the decision has been made that Emirates will provide an entry point for Direct Entry Captains. Consequentially, we will shortly commence advertising for Direct Entry Captains to join EK.¡±
This rather sounds like the future in EK, as I would guess that the above action in relation to ¡°immediate & future growth plans¡± will go a significant way towards turning off the long term flow of well qualified FO¡¯s and young Captains jumping ship elsewhere in the world, to join the nirvana in the desert. I¡¯d guess that the following would be the usual management flannel to smooth things over and disguise the intention and accelerating growth driven requirement to continue taking DE Captains, now they¡¯ve crossed the Rubicon of DE entry-
¡±Emirates is committed to balancing Direct Entry Captains requirements against First Officers who meet command criteria so that the latter group are not unduly disadvantaged.¡±
Anyway, we shall see
¡°From Vice President Flight Ops (EK)...
DIRECT ENTRY COMMANDS
"Given the planned expansion of the Emirates fleet a considerable amount of resource planning has been conducted. This work has demonstrated that without reducing the minimum criteria for command, the company will have a shortfall of command.
The company has discussed altering the minimum requirements, but to preserve quality & operational standards, this will not be done. Therefore in order to satisfy the company¡¯s immediate & future growth plans the decision has been made that Emirates will provide an entry point for Direct Entry Captains. Consequentially, we will shortly commence advertising for Direct Entry Captains to join EK.¡±
This rather sounds like the future in EK, as I would guess that the above action in relation to ¡°immediate & future growth plans¡± will go a significant way towards turning off the long term flow of well qualified FO¡¯s and young Captains jumping ship elsewhere in the world, to join the nirvana in the desert. I¡¯d guess that the following would be the usual management flannel to smooth things over and disguise the intention and accelerating growth driven requirement to continue taking DE Captains, now they¡¯ve crossed the Rubicon of DE entry-
¡±Emirates is committed to balancing Direct Entry Captains requirements against First Officers who meet command criteria so that the latter group are not unduly disadvantaged.¡±
Anyway, we shall see
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This draging on now...
I don't think that anyone working here is under the fantasy that EK is "Nirvana in the Desert". In fact, there are a number of areas where improvements could be made and all who work here know that. Any mature adult realises that this would obviously hold true for any airline / company in the world today.
Some, however, might be under the misguided illusion that this the first time that EK will take on direct entry captains and that once this "Rubicon" has been crossed (not sure if you mean an act of war or irrevocable commitment here) an endless stream of DE Capt's will abound. Well, it's not the fist time that DE's will be employed and considering that EK went back to the seniority based promotion system in the past gives me hope that they will do it again in the future. I'm not for DE Captains, and probably will never be, but I do realise that right now there doesn't seem to be another solution.
Over and out!
Some, however, might be under the misguided illusion that this the first time that EK will take on direct entry captains and that once this "Rubicon" has been crossed (not sure if you mean an act of war or irrevocable commitment here) an endless stream of DE Capt's will abound. Well, it's not the fist time that DE's will be employed and considering that EK went back to the seniority based promotion system in the past gives me hope that they will do it again in the future. I'm not for DE Captains, and probably will never be, but I do realise that right now there doesn't seem to be another solution.
Over and out!
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According to ATWonline, the eight A340-300 aircraft that EK is to receive will be on nine year operating leases....perhaps these 'short term' DE Commanders will be rather longer term than many realized.
Wonder how many co-pilots will be crying in their beers now?
Wonder how many co-pilots will be crying in their beers now?
There could be all kinds of clauses in a nine year deal.
The right to on-lease could be one.
Convert to freighter may be another.
Palm them off to Sri Lankan another possibility (Since they already have them).
Turn them into dive sites off "The Palm".
Who knows, but l don't see them being a part of the Emirates vision in the next few years.
halas
The right to on-lease could be one.
Convert to freighter may be another.
Palm them off to Sri Lankan another possibility (Since they already have them).
Turn them into dive sites off "The Palm".
Who knows, but l don't see them being a part of the Emirates vision in the next few years.
halas