Emirates Direct Entry Commands (merged)
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EK seniority
I was involved with EK at the beginning and being a start up airline we employed direct entry captains. A year or so after the start the non flying management still wanted to bring in direct entry captains which resulted in a couple of first officers jumping ship on a night stop, leaving the aircraft stranded.
The management then allowed the initiation of a seniority list - my personal view is that the seniority list has kept the standards and continuity that we expect from airlines such as EK (nobody in high places can bring a friend - everybody has to jump through the same loops). Caste an eye at some of the other airlines in that region!!
It will be a sad and significant day if that seniority list is broken.
The management then allowed the initiation of a seniority list - my personal view is that the seniority list has kept the standards and continuity that we expect from airlines such as EK (nobody in high places can bring a friend - everybody has to jump through the same loops). Caste an eye at some of the other airlines in that region!!
It will be a sad and significant day if that seniority list is broken.
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Dropp the Pilot seems to be making some very good points. Of all the groups in the industry, world-wide, the FO force in Emirates would appear to currently be the most fortunately placed. Not only does it have a seniority system that, to date, shows itself to work, it has an employing company that has committed itself to vast fleet expansion, thus coincidently providing the group’s individuals with unmatched opportunity for progression to the LH seat.
As part of this expansion effort, the acquisition of very cheap, interim aircraft would appear to be an intelligent move on the airline’s part, as they will assist in market building prior to entry of what looks like being a world beating type, the B777-300ER.
Given this premise of even greater expansion than previously planned, because of a great deal suddenly thrown at the airline, it would seem counter-productive for the FO force to make short term difficulties for its employer in respect of a limited number of DE captains that may be required to assist in operating these opportunity assets.
Perhaps the group’s best interests may lie in gracious acquiescence of an unavoidable solution to an arisen situation which will ultimately benefit everyone.
As an end note, I also agree that 411A is entirely correct in the matter of the company doing precisely as it wishes. Best go with the flow on this one, if indeed the situation does come about, rather than needlessly antagonise. After all, we’re mature professionals aren’t we?
As part of this expansion effort, the acquisition of very cheap, interim aircraft would appear to be an intelligent move on the airline’s part, as they will assist in market building prior to entry of what looks like being a world beating type, the B777-300ER.
Given this premise of even greater expansion than previously planned, because of a great deal suddenly thrown at the airline, it would seem counter-productive for the FO force to make short term difficulties for its employer in respect of a limited number of DE captains that may be required to assist in operating these opportunity assets.
Perhaps the group’s best interests may lie in gracious acquiescence of an unavoidable solution to an arisen situation which will ultimately benefit everyone.
As an end note, I also agree that 411A is entirely correct in the matter of the company doing precisely as it wishes. Best go with the flow on this one, if indeed the situation does come about, rather than needlessly antagonise. After all, we’re mature professionals aren’t we?
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All will be revealed.................
Here comes the 29th with both fleets in separate meetings at the same time in the same place...................
RUMOUR CITY OR WHAT??
Seriously, have spoken to an un-named manager recently, 6 might be a smaller number than in reality.................didn't elaborate any further than that.
He also stated that the company's preference would be to promote from within as he would be a known candidate, rather than take an unknown from outside.
And please don't think for a minute that anyone on the EK pilot force (may-it-be-with-you!!) has the disillusioned idea that they are in any way capable of influencing the company........more chance of serving pork in-flight and if that's what 411A is trying to say then I have to agree.
But surely this is a RUMOUR network..........not a supposition network as 411A would think. Of course DE captains MAY be around longer than we think, no one is 'huffing and puffing' about it. We're just trying to find out if any one else has heard anything. And as some of the contributors to this thread are a little closer to this Sand Pit, rather than the one in Arizona, I know who I will be taking more notice of!
But the tone of his threads leads me to believe that his CRM skills are non-existant and I would hate to fly with someone like that. All Captains, regardless of how one percieves their ability started as a First Officer, even 411A. Maybe he has forgotten that in his senility..........
PS while he(she??) is on my ignore list, it still makes interesting, but mainly laughable reading when I know whats coming!!
TTFN
RUMOUR CITY OR WHAT??
Seriously, have spoken to an un-named manager recently, 6 might be a smaller number than in reality.................didn't elaborate any further than that.
He also stated that the company's preference would be to promote from within as he would be a known candidate, rather than take an unknown from outside.
And please don't think for a minute that anyone on the EK pilot force (may-it-be-with-you!!) has the disillusioned idea that they are in any way capable of influencing the company........more chance of serving pork in-flight and if that's what 411A is trying to say then I have to agree.
But surely this is a RUMOUR network..........not a supposition network as 411A would think. Of course DE captains MAY be around longer than we think, no one is 'huffing and puffing' about it. We're just trying to find out if any one else has heard anything. And as some of the contributors to this thread are a little closer to this Sand Pit, rather than the one in Arizona, I know who I will be taking more notice of!
But the tone of his threads leads me to believe that his CRM skills are non-existant and I would hate to fly with someone like that. All Captains, regardless of how one percieves their ability started as a First Officer, even 411A. Maybe he has forgotten that in his senility..........
PS while he(she??) is on my ignore list, it still makes interesting, but mainly laughable reading when I know whats coming!!
TTFN
Last edited by wagtail23; 10th Sep 2003 at 15:44.
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"SOPS, sorry maybe I should have been a little more specific.
Yes, of course those with major carriers have been carefully selected and trained etc. but are we necessarily going to get those that have long standing careers with a flag carrier applying for short term contracts here?
"
Yes Fish, you would starting with me !
EK is a fine outfit and I sure would like to get a peek. Im sure we are a lot lot feeling that way.
Yes, of course those with major carriers have been carefully selected and trained etc. but are we necessarily going to get those that have long standing careers with a flag carrier applying for short term contracts here?
"
Yes Fish, you would starting with me !
EK is a fine outfit and I sure would like to get a peek. Im sure we are a lot lot feeling that way.
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Emirates
Dear gentlemens,
i hope evrey body get his job and have one personell question to the experienced pilots.
Do emirates ever screen new pilots on the 777 - Sim instead of the Airbus 310 ?
Thanks for cooperation.
i hope evrey body get his job and have one personell question to the experienced pilots.
Do emirates ever screen new pilots on the 777 - Sim instead of the Airbus 310 ?
Thanks for cooperation.
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>The pay is crap, and no pension rights!
True, but for some folks it is a step up.
$120K for 90 hours a month hard time as a widebody captain would be peanuts even at a bankrupt U.S. carrier but it is great money in Canada, the UK or Oz.
And it's $120K more than you're making if you're out of work. Just think of all you'll save on union dues <g>.
True, but for some folks it is a step up.
$120K for 90 hours a month hard time as a widebody captain would be peanuts even at a bankrupt U.S. carrier but it is great money in Canada, the UK or Oz.
And it's $120K more than you're making if you're out of work. Just think of all you'll save on union dues <g>.
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Well this: DE's are always a double-edge sword, and pilots be fools to think that management doesn't know this. DEs may tear companies apart if not done right. If experienced captains who have done it elsewhere can also do it in the ME and allow rapid expansion-although they'll probably enjoy the help of the experienced FOs with SOPs, local radio lingo, etc- but also, the experienced FOs, most of whom have jet command time, could also do the same job if allowed. So then these two points:
EK gives the impression of a very well organised airline which unlike many other in that region puts the right people to do the right job. I think EK probably has the most qualified FO force right now and as such company would be wise to revisit the 18 months requirement before hiring direct, and upgrade from within as much as possible from training point.
And the pilots, hopefully stay flexible and if not reasonably possible to upgrade from within, welcome DE's as long as on contract and in seniority which will be retained if these captains decide to stay later. To put it bluntly, the company is ultimately in charge and in this regard can do as it please, so why not work with them to keep every one happy. Lest we forget that recent years are littered with failed airlines unable to adapt, from which many of you come. Keep in mind that you and management work for the same company.
In closing, it has to be borne in mind that none of us were born as captains, however, some have forgotten the past. It is time for us to stay closer together and look after one another as we share the same passion for flying. The FOs should remain confident and not cocky, eager but not pushy, grateful and not confrontational, otherwise some day they might be surprised at the requried level of competence even in today's highly automated birds. At the same time, seasoned captains should remember the old days and how they craved for command, regard all FOs as captains in training and pass the torch on-it will happen anyway, willingly is just more becoming.
EK gives the impression of a very well organised airline which unlike many other in that region puts the right people to do the right job. I think EK probably has the most qualified FO force right now and as such company would be wise to revisit the 18 months requirement before hiring direct, and upgrade from within as much as possible from training point.
And the pilots, hopefully stay flexible and if not reasonably possible to upgrade from within, welcome DE's as long as on contract and in seniority which will be retained if these captains decide to stay later. To put it bluntly, the company is ultimately in charge and in this regard can do as it please, so why not work with them to keep every one happy. Lest we forget that recent years are littered with failed airlines unable to adapt, from which many of you come. Keep in mind that you and management work for the same company.
In closing, it has to be borne in mind that none of us were born as captains, however, some have forgotten the past. It is time for us to stay closer together and look after one another as we share the same passion for flying. The FOs should remain confident and not cocky, eager but not pushy, grateful and not confrontational, otherwise some day they might be surprised at the requried level of competence even in today's highly automated birds. At the same time, seasoned captains should remember the old days and how they craved for command, regard all FOs as captains in training and pass the torch on-it will happen anyway, willingly is just more becoming.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
From memory EK has employed DEC's before - initially on short term contracts, but then extended through until they retired there.
"Interesting" to see 411Alzheimers sticking his unknowledgeable beak into this one wrt what he thinks requirements for F/O's to upgrade should be.
Using his own criteria, 411 Alzheimers would NEVER have made the grade HIMSELF!
"Interesting" to see 411Alzheimers sticking his unknowledgeable beak into this one wrt what he thinks requirements for F/O's to upgrade should be.
Using his own criteria, 411 Alzheimers would NEVER have made the grade HIMSELF!
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OK, I guess I can understand people with no jobs taking a post at Emirates, but that not what they're reputedly hiring, is it?
From my understanding, they've got so many applicants they only hire high time, current jet rated Captains...as F/O's!!
The guys I know who've gone down there all had better paid jobs with good prospects!
I don't know much about the US Airbubba, but in the UK there are plenty of jobs going for experienced guys. Easy and FR are both crying out for Captains, and will be for some time to come, and the money's as good as Emirates, if not better.
So what is it?
Is it just the ego trip of a widebody command that pulls people down to the sandpit?
Doesn't the novelty wear off after you've done it for six months and then begin to realise you'll never get a payrise, and your retirement is your own lookout? Oh, and the added spice of being at the mercy of a system where 'union' is more than just a dirty word.
From my understanding, they've got so many applicants they only hire high time, current jet rated Captains...as F/O's!!
The guys I know who've gone down there all had better paid jobs with good prospects!
I don't know much about the US Airbubba, but in the UK there are plenty of jobs going for experienced guys. Easy and FR are both crying out for Captains, and will be for some time to come, and the money's as good as Emirates, if not better.
So what is it?
Is it just the ego trip of a widebody command that pulls people down to the sandpit?
Doesn't the novelty wear off after you've done it for six months and then begin to realise you'll never get a payrise, and your retirement is your own lookout? Oh, and the added spice of being at the mercy of a system where 'union' is more than just a dirty word.
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Hilarious!
Thanks, Max, that post made my day as the most inept pot-stirring attempt in history!
Tell you what, next time I strap on my EK 777-300 I'll urge the F/O to apply to Ryanair to ensure a better life for himself and his family.
If I am not removed from the flight for being patently insane I promise to send any printable responses your way.
If by chance I do find someone who really misses poverty, exhaustion, and six landings a day in some of the most obscure and sunless spots on the planet you will get a new union member!
Tell you what, next time I strap on my EK 777-300 I'll urge the F/O to apply to Ryanair to ensure a better life for himself and his family.
If I am not removed from the flight for being patently insane I promise to send any printable responses your way.
If by chance I do find someone who really misses poverty, exhaustion, and six landings a day in some of the most obscure and sunless spots on the planet you will get a new union member!
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Mr dropp whatever your name is dont make it look so good i hav beeing there done it the desert is a desert trust me few years down the line it wears off,nevemind unions and the rest
maxalt is right emirates is not everything and by the way if you dont belong to a certain group forget it and spare me the reply dont say is not true
good luck
maxalt is right emirates is not everything and by the way if you dont belong to a certain group forget it and spare me the reply dont say is not true
good luck
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Hey Dropp, don't get so defensive. I really wasn't trying to wind anyone up. I truly don't understand this sheeplike stampede to leave civilised europe, where there are good protections for workers and decent levels of security for families, to join a company in a ME country where you are nothing but a guest worker with no rights and dubious security.
Not to get personal...but your answer tends to make me think it really is an ego thing:
Poverty?: An FR F/O can earn as much as an EK Captain.
Exhaustion?: I guess loooong haul can get tiring too, huh?
Sunless destinations?: I think 50deg temps in summer is taking sun worship too far!
Not to get personal...but your answer tends to make me think it really is an ego thing:
next time I strap on my EK 777-300
Poverty?: An FR F/O can earn as much as an EK Captain.
Exhaustion?: I guess loooong haul can get tiring too, huh?
Sunless destinations?: I think 50deg temps in summer is taking sun worship too far!
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Dropp the Pilot, I think you'll find the vast majority of Ryanair pilots are VERY happy with what they're doing.
I wonder why....excellent pay, rigid roster, home every night, excellent promotion prospects, excellent profits, brand-new 737-800s, expanding route network.....and the choice of a number of bases all over Europe.....looks pretty attractive to me.
Yes, lots of landings, but then some people prefer it to hours on end of little or no activity....
I wonder why....excellent pay, rigid roster, home every night, excellent promotion prospects, excellent profits, brand-new 737-800s, expanding route network.....and the choice of a number of bases all over Europe.....looks pretty attractive to me.
Yes, lots of landings, but then some people prefer it to hours on end of little or no activity....
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I dont see a problem with the DE Captain proposal.Hundreds of pilots around the world are hired in this fashion.What amazes me though is how an experienced Jet Captain would go there and work as a FO.You never go left to right.Always right to left,unless it aint your choice or there's a sluggish economy.Besides its Saudi with alcohol and the pay is moderate.
411 is usually correct...its just the way he says it.
411 is usually correct...its just the way he says it.
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Those who are comfortably settled in Europe, with their fancy new equipment, home every night etc...will never hope to understand the reason others will choose a different path.
Some may just like the challange, others just want a change of scenery...altho do think it a bit daft to move from the left seat to the right, for what may seem like a short while, but indeed may be longer than they think. Still, will suit a few.
As for pay, well don't forget that in the desert 'tis provided tax free, unlike further north in the comfort zone.
Free housing is not to be dismissed lightly either.
From a personal standpoint, went overseas over thirty years ago for all the usual reasons...excellent tax-free pay (then especially),
interesting location (especially SE asia later on)...and the absolute most important, very rapid move to the left seat of a heavy four-engine jet. In a small company especially, this can be accomplished in short order...indeed it will take much longer the larger the company becomes.
Ah yes, the wailing and moaning will continue from the junior types in EK, but if the company management decides thus, it will happen, and there is absolutely nothing they can do about it.
Hey, if these junior types want to make 'decisions', they should apply for a management position, where they might hope to accomplish what they cannot here (or indeed in the right seat where they are now)...change policy...or make decisions.
Would suggest...gear up and shut up for the folks in the minority seat.
Just the way it is, like it or not, and many won't.
Some may just like the challange, others just want a change of scenery...altho do think it a bit daft to move from the left seat to the right, for what may seem like a short while, but indeed may be longer than they think. Still, will suit a few.
As for pay, well don't forget that in the desert 'tis provided tax free, unlike further north in the comfort zone.
Free housing is not to be dismissed lightly either.
From a personal standpoint, went overseas over thirty years ago for all the usual reasons...excellent tax-free pay (then especially),
interesting location (especially SE asia later on)...and the absolute most important, very rapid move to the left seat of a heavy four-engine jet. In a small company especially, this can be accomplished in short order...indeed it will take much longer the larger the company becomes.
Ah yes, the wailing and moaning will continue from the junior types in EK, but if the company management decides thus, it will happen, and there is absolutely nothing they can do about it.
Hey, if these junior types want to make 'decisions', they should apply for a management position, where they might hope to accomplish what they cannot here (or indeed in the right seat where they are now)...change policy...or make decisions.
Would suggest...gear up and shut up for the folks in the minority seat.
Just the way it is, like it or not, and many won't.
Last edited by 411A; 11th Sep 2003 at 22:58.
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411A, I'm not criticising those who opt for a change in scenery in any way...indeed we all have our own preferences with regards to the sort of lifestyle we would like.
I was merely pointing out to Dropp the Pilot that things at Ryanair are far from what he deems them to be. The pilot community at Ryanair are more or less content with their deal. Each one to his own.
I was merely pointing out to Dropp the Pilot that things at Ryanair are far from what he deems them to be. The pilot community at Ryanair are more or less content with their deal. Each one to his own.
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Indeed, AJ, a very good point.
Only have to look back a very short time to notice that many had slings and arrows for anyone joining RyanAir...now that the shoe is on the other foot, and FR seem to going great for those that are there...suspect a case of sour grapes by those that turned up their nose in the first place.
Only have to look back a very short time to notice that many had slings and arrows for anyone joining RyanAir...now that the shoe is on the other foot, and FR seem to going great for those that are there...suspect a case of sour grapes by those that turned up their nose in the first place.