Emirates Direct Entry Commands (merged)
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When airlines recruit Commanders, they are recruiting a known commodity, ie: experienced Commanders, from other airlines where they have proven their worth as...line Captains.
A consistant track record, if you like.
This goes especially for check/training Captains.
With First Officers, they can be more selective, because many times they have no command experience...and if they did before, with another company, they have applied for a First Officer position.
Has always been thus, and it ain't likely to change anytime soon.
Having said all this, companies should, to the best of their ability, promote from within, whenever possible.
In a rapidly growing airline, this may be a real challange.
A consistant track record, if you like.
This goes especially for check/training Captains.
With First Officers, they can be more selective, because many times they have no command experience...and if they did before, with another company, they have applied for a First Officer position.
Has always been thus, and it ain't likely to change anytime soon.
Having said all this, companies should, to the best of their ability, promote from within, whenever possible.
In a rapidly growing airline, this may be a real challange.
Last edited by 411A; 30th Sep 2003 at 08:35.
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411 I can't agree with you here, when you recruit a commander from another airline you don't know anything about them! All you know is what's in their log book. Just because they might work at what is regarded as a reputable carrier doesn't meen they are necessarilly anygood. Surely your arguement would apply to F/Os. If you recruit an F/O from "other ailines where they have proven their worth" as you put it, then wouldn't you still know what you are getting as an F/O. If you don't know with an F/O why are you any wiser with a commander??
Given that EK want to put these DEC straight into their jets, without any knowledge of who they really are (ie, a history of recurrent checks, behaviour etc) then they should be more thorough and selective in recruitment not the other way around.
Given that EK want to put these DEC straight into their jets, without any knowledge of who they really are (ie, a history of recurrent checks, behaviour etc) then they should be more thorough and selective in recruitment not the other way around.
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Actually max AB, airlines do a lot more than a quick logbook check when hiring flight crew.
Extensive background checks are the norm now, and indeed have been for sometime.
In addition, as EK has requested applications especially for training Captains, they may well do better hiring from outside, as comments here suggest the training department environment is less than ideal.
Either way, it would appear the these direct entry guys will be required in rather large numbers.
Maybe even pump up the salaries a bit for all at EK, which appear to be in need of inflation.
Have passed thru DXB for the last 25 years, and prices are definately not cheap anymore.
Extensive background checks are the norm now, and indeed have been for sometime.
In addition, as EK has requested applications especially for training Captains, they may well do better hiring from outside, as comments here suggest the training department environment is less than ideal.
Either way, it would appear the these direct entry guys will be required in rather large numbers.
Maybe even pump up the salaries a bit for all at EK, which appear to be in need of inflation.
Have passed thru DXB for the last 25 years, and prices are definately not cheap anymore.
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Another Post75 I have it on good authority that Experienced A340 Captains with experience of EK's Routes will start on a Salary much higher than the bottom rate of Dhs 23920 per month.
EK are realistic enough to realise that they will not get the Quality Captains otherwise.
EK are getting these A340 at a Bargain price no doubt from Boeing as they have been sitting around for ages gathering dust so EK can well afford to pay the Proper Rate to get the required Captains.
EK are realistic enough to realise that they will not get the Quality Captains otherwise.
EK are getting these A340 at a Bargain price no doubt from Boeing as they have been sitting around for ages gathering dust so EK can well afford to pay the Proper Rate to get the required Captains.
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Farty Flaps – Yes absolutely spot on. I kicked off with a start-up airline at one time and then stayed with them for almost ten years before I tired of the corporatist bullsh*t culture that had slowly evolved from the heady, buccaneering first two years. I vividly remember that the majority of my (captain) founder member colleagues, whilst very nice guys, hardly possessed startling management or leadership qualities and were strictly average but adequate line pilots (just like me!). What a remarkable number did possess in spades, however (I didn’t), was a desire to wear a suit, sit in an office and be the big man, using the training route as the industry standard stepping stone (I was offered the same but declined). Once ensconced, following, in a couple of cases, less than luminous training interludes, these pleasant and unremarkable men, prone to the normal human error and limitation, transmogrified into unbending and unforgiving paragons of knowledge, rectitude and Olympian certainty, to the puzzlement and consternation of their founder-member friends plus the newly joined members of a rapidly expanding airline. New devices progressively evolved for the selection and training of recruits and ever higher standards (which the founder members would never in a million years have themselves been able to attain) became the bar to clear before acceptance.
Whilst all this was going on, I was aware of similar founding days of Emirates and of a number of the personalities who now seem (from an outsider’s view) to have reached such similar Olympian heights as the personalities described above and, furthermore, seem to uncannily mirror their attitudes and methodology.
In the “old days” of both airlines, it appeared that experience, track record and personality were the three key elements, established during an interview with the DFO/CP, plus the results of a discrete couple of ‘phone calls around the industry, following which, if all was assessed as well, the candidate would be offered a position. Nowhere did I see any sign of HR “experts” or psychology gurus being required to tell the DFO/CP what they needed to know about particular pilot candidates and at all times I was aware that the system seemed to work most effectively (except when the “Old Pal’s Act” was invoked periodically and the odd duffer slipped through) in that able and experience people continually joined both airlines.
All of which, in fact, leads up to my asking the question: Is the EK three day selection process (and other airlines’ similar procedures) really required at all, or is it just a fashion accessory which the well dressed DFO can’t do without and in particular is it really needed for the DE captains to be recruited, who’s track records, personalities and experience must, by now, be transparent to even the most casual observer?
Whilst all this was going on, I was aware of similar founding days of Emirates and of a number of the personalities who now seem (from an outsider’s view) to have reached such similar Olympian heights as the personalities described above and, furthermore, seem to uncannily mirror their attitudes and methodology.
In the “old days” of both airlines, it appeared that experience, track record and personality were the three key elements, established during an interview with the DFO/CP, plus the results of a discrete couple of ‘phone calls around the industry, following which, if all was assessed as well, the candidate would be offered a position. Nowhere did I see any sign of HR “experts” or psychology gurus being required to tell the DFO/CP what they needed to know about particular pilot candidates and at all times I was aware that the system seemed to work most effectively (except when the “Old Pal’s Act” was invoked periodically and the odd duffer slipped through) in that able and experience people continually joined both airlines.
All of which, in fact, leads up to my asking the question: Is the EK three day selection process (and other airlines’ similar procedures) really required at all, or is it just a fashion accessory which the well dressed DFO can’t do without and in particular is it really needed for the DE captains to be recruited, who’s track records, personalities and experience must, by now, be transparent to even the most casual observer?
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atiuta
With four posts since Nov 2001 you’re not exactly a prolific contributor are you? And in your last offering you don’t really say much either, do you? Why not develop what you would like to say and provide an intellectual case to refute all that you have read and presumably do not agree with – sighing soulfully and relying on rhetorical questions and innuendo simply will not be effective. Finally, Pprune is not compulsory reading - you have the choice and if you really do find different viewpoints anathema, then desist from logging on.
With four posts since Nov 2001 you’re not exactly a prolific contributor are you? And in your last offering you don’t really say much either, do you? Why not develop what you would like to say and provide an intellectual case to refute all that you have read and presumably do not agree with – sighing soulfully and relying on rhetorical questions and innuendo simply will not be effective. Finally, Pprune is not compulsory reading - you have the choice and if you really do find different viewpoints anathema, then desist from logging on.
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Having been through the EK selection process myself I'd have the following comments.
It was done in a very open and friendly atmosphere by the 'facilitators'. I found them to be honest and professional in their approach.
However....
Within the first 1 hour it was already obvious to me which of my fellow candidates was likely to be selected...and more importantly, which ones were utterly doomed to failure.
I took the whole process in the best of spirit...after all, by applying for an F/O job I was already having to swallow some pride...might as well go along with it so and give your best.
But afterward, even though I 'passed' and was offerred the job, I have to say that the stupidity and insulting nature of the process began to bear down on me, and it did play a part in my decision not to join up.
In short, as others have said, the selection process is a sham, and is (I believe) more aimed at discouraging applications from anyone who might 'have an attitude' and give EK some trouble if they are not getting everything their own way.
A traditional interview with any of the candidates in my group would have produced exactly the same outcome IMHO.
The fact that I got through the 3 day process shows anyone can fool the system!
So you guys in EK who jumped through all the hoops and are now being passed over for your command by DECs, this is exactly what they had in mind for you when they put you through the process and selected you. And, more importantly, this is what you showed you'd be prepared to swallow when the time came...just for that job at EK.
You are going to be good obedient puppies.
Suck it up.
It was done in a very open and friendly atmosphere by the 'facilitators'. I found them to be honest and professional in their approach.
However....
Within the first 1 hour it was already obvious to me which of my fellow candidates was likely to be selected...and more importantly, which ones were utterly doomed to failure.
I took the whole process in the best of spirit...after all, by applying for an F/O job I was already having to swallow some pride...might as well go along with it so and give your best.
But afterward, even though I 'passed' and was offerred the job, I have to say that the stupidity and insulting nature of the process began to bear down on me, and it did play a part in my decision not to join up.
In short, as others have said, the selection process is a sham, and is (I believe) more aimed at discouraging applications from anyone who might 'have an attitude' and give EK some trouble if they are not getting everything their own way.
A traditional interview with any of the candidates in my group would have produced exactly the same outcome IMHO.
The fact that I got through the 3 day process shows anyone can fool the system!
So you guys in EK who jumped through all the hoops and are now being passed over for your command by DECs, this is exactly what they had in mind for you when they put you through the process and selected you. And, more importantly, this is what you showed you'd be prepared to swallow when the time came...just for that job at EK.
You are going to be good obedient puppies.
Suck it up.
Last edited by maxalt; 30th Sep 2003 at 20:28.
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Jeez, MaxAlt - you come out of retirement more times than George Foreman! Your last word on the subject was supposed to be your post on the 19th, but I guess you just can't help yourself.
So happy you made selection way-back-when (as you have mentioned at every given opportunity), but if you're not interested in the job now (that's 3000hrs widebody command, by the way) please just leave it at that. Let those who might well be interested make up their own minds after seeing firsthand for themselves.
So happy you made selection way-back-when (as you have mentioned at every given opportunity), but if you're not interested in the job now (that's 3000hrs widebody command, by the way) please just leave it at that. Let those who might well be interested make up their own minds after seeing firsthand for themselves.
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Jeez, MaxAlt - you come out of retirement more times than George Foreman! Your last word on the subject was supposed to be your post on the 19th.
Look mate, I made one simple comment to begin with, way back on page 2.
Who'd want to work for Emirates? The pay is crap, and no pension rights!
If you think I've overstated my case, now that the truth is hurting, I'm sorry....I have full sympathy with those who are now under threat. All I can say in my defense is you won't be seeing me applying to EK, whether they'd want me or not because whatever I am....I'm no scab.
My advise to you all in EK is - get a union.
To those who aren't in EK yet, you don't need my advise, just read and think twice. Then do as you must.
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Scab? How is joining EK under the DE profile scabbing?
As a matter of fact, this job may appeal to me.
Would anyone like to comment on the prospects of getting children into schools?
What family accomodation is provided? Duplex, villa, unit or stand-alone house?
What is the rostered flying like?
Is it back to back long haul, night flying?
Is the rostered allocation of work equitable, or do the top hens peck the good flights, leaving chaff for the mere mortals?
This thread may be better served by allowing F/O's to vent their collective spleens. If so, I apologise for butting in, but it seems EK will employ as they see fit, in which case, there are pertinent questions that could be answered here.
Maxalt, you're upsetting people. Bravo to you for not taking the job. It's obviously been the right decision, for you. Is there now a need to rub that into the faces of those at EK?
As a matter of fact, this job may appeal to me.
Would anyone like to comment on the prospects of getting children into schools?
What family accomodation is provided? Duplex, villa, unit or stand-alone house?
What is the rostered flying like?
Is it back to back long haul, night flying?
Is the rostered allocation of work equitable, or do the top hens peck the good flights, leaving chaff for the mere mortals?
This thread may be better served by allowing F/O's to vent their collective spleens. If so, I apologise for butting in, but it seems EK will employ as they see fit, in which case, there are pertinent questions that could be answered here.
Maxalt, you're upsetting people. Bravo to you for not taking the job. It's obviously been the right decision, for you. Is there now a need to rub that into the faces of those at EK?
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maxalt
Correct. All the three day “hoop-jumping” does is confirm to the HR operatives that the pilot candidates can do what they’ve been doing as a matter of some routine for the past x years – something a switched-on DFO can establish in three minutes with the aid of his/her knowledge, experience, intuition and back-channel sources. Or don’t they make DFO’s like that anymore?
Correct. All the three day “hoop-jumping” does is confirm to the HR operatives that the pilot candidates can do what they’ve been doing as a matter of some routine for the past x years – something a switched-on DFO can establish in three minutes with the aid of his/her knowledge, experience, intuition and back-channel sources. Or don’t they make DFO’s like that anymore?
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Life as a journey
With a name like that I would assume you are a bit of a philosopher. Well I think you should take the time to reflect on this.
Whilst I respect the right of anyone so qualified to apply for the positions advertised, afterall shafting your colleagues is a time honored tradition amongst pilots, you don't seriously expect anyone here to help you, do you?
Secondly, all the information you have asked about has been discussed in volumes on these forums, so loosen up that clicking finger and sort your own life out.
Cop U Later
The Rev
With a name like that I would assume you are a bit of a philosopher. Well I think you should take the time to reflect on this.
Whilst I respect the right of anyone so qualified to apply for the positions advertised, afterall shafting your colleagues is a time honored tradition amongst pilots, you don't seriously expect anyone here to help you, do you?
Secondly, all the information you have asked about has been discussed in volumes on these forums, so loosen up that clicking finger and sort your own life out.
Cop U Later
The Rev
Last edited by Reverend Doctor Doug; 1st Oct 2003 at 18:43.
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millerscourt. From MSN currency converter - 23,920 Utd. Arab Emir. Dirham = 6,512.74 US Dollar. So no, this doesn’t seem overly appealing as an inducement to move, for experienced captains in the 55 year aged bracket and who are currently serving in positions that EK would find appropriate as indicating suitability for a DE command with the airline. But then maybe bottom line will prevail again and they’ll take the sweepings who’ll jump at the chance. Doesn’t say much for the airline’s future if this is the way they go (which they will!).
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max AB
Sure, all good reasons but really the cash is very important and if we didn't make it so, we'd all be living on a pittance and getting nowhere - bit like the boys in SQ in fact!
Sure, all good reasons but really the cash is very important and if we didn't make it so, we'd all be living on a pittance and getting nowhere - bit like the boys in SQ in fact!
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Life is a drama
The current events have had no effect on me whatsoever, and I am not the least bit cross.
I do however carry concerns for those I work with. Which would appear to be a different position than yours.
Continue the journey. It seems that you have a long way to travel.
Cop U Later
The Rev
The current events have had no effect on me whatsoever, and I am not the least bit cross.
I do however carry concerns for those I work with. Which would appear to be a different position than yours.
Continue the journey. It seems that you have a long way to travel.
Cop U Later
The Rev
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Scab?
Yes, 'Life as a Journey' (LAAJ?), thats the word I'd use.
If I took a job which parachuted me into a widebody LHS in a company which always promoted from within, unless there were exceptional circumstances (i.e. a short term wet lease) I would indeed feel like a scab.
Thats the only word I can think of to describe it. It may not be technically correct - they have no union - but since every guy you will meet or work with will treat you like a scab...a scab is what you will be.
I guess if you need a job badly then you'll live with yourself. You'll need to be good company though, because it'll be a lonely life.
The only pilots interested in such cheap unpleasant work will be the dregs, and those who don't give a damn for anyone but themselves.
There's plenty of 'em out there though.
Silky, your problem is you are so in awe of EK you just can't believe we all don't think like you. What would you be prepared to suck up for a job at EK? Wanna sit in the LHS of a shiny new A340?
You know what to do then.
Yes, 'Life as a Journey' (LAAJ?), thats the word I'd use.
If I took a job which parachuted me into a widebody LHS in a company which always promoted from within, unless there were exceptional circumstances (i.e. a short term wet lease) I would indeed feel like a scab.
Thats the only word I can think of to describe it. It may not be technically correct - they have no union - but since every guy you will meet or work with will treat you like a scab...a scab is what you will be.
I guess if you need a job badly then you'll live with yourself. You'll need to be good company though, because it'll be a lonely life.
The only pilots interested in such cheap unpleasant work will be the dregs, and those who don't give a damn for anyone but themselves.
There's plenty of 'em out there though.
Silky, your problem is you are so in awe of EK you just can't believe we all don't think like you. What would you be prepared to suck up for a job at EK? Wanna sit in the LHS of a shiny new A340?
You know what to do then.
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You're right about one thing at least, but it was a few posts ago now. In it you said something about sniping at each other. 'How's this progressing the post?' Let it go Reverend. So you don't like my handle...
As for the fellow who thinks I'd be a scab, you're off the mark there. No picket line. Company employing, needs pilots, no-one being laid off, or, wait for it, disadvantaged. Threatening comments on a PPRuNe thread won't have the desired effect of scaring off properly qualified crew.
EK need drivers. They're about to get them.
As for the fellow who thinks I'd be a scab, you're off the mark there. No picket line. Company employing, needs pilots, no-one being laid off, or, wait for it, disadvantaged. Threatening comments on a PPRuNe thread won't have the desired effect of scaring off properly qualified crew.
EK need drivers. They're about to get them.