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AF 447 Thread No. 5

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AF 447 Thread No. 5

Old 2nd Aug 2011, 15:00
  #1321 (permalink)  
 
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@stick n rudder

Very well said.

This accident may be a result of the AB "just push the button" philosophie.

The so called "crash proofed" aircrafts (Airbus) payed the tribute...
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 15:15
  #1322 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SaturnV
... if she was present and did speak (two BIG assumptions) her voice would be on the CVR. However, the CVR conversation presented in Interim Report 3 is not a full transcript, as extraneous conversation has been omitted. I think anything she said would be considered extraneous, and omitted.
.../...
If something was said and omitted as "extraneous", it have to appear as "(...)" which is "Word or group of words unrelated to flight management":



BUT: the caption of CVR transcript is "Les extraits de la transcription CVR...". So BEA clearly wrote there that the transcript is not comprehensive.

EDIT: "without" before "unrelated" deleted (miswording).

Last edited by Shadoko; 2nd Aug 2011 at 15:40. Reason: rephrasing
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 15:24
  #1323 (permalink)  
 
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Dozy Dozy ...

Originally Posted by DozyWannabe
Different topic? Maybe - but I think it's important to make clear that the only time it won't do it is if you've permanently disabled autothrust (as in held A/T disengage down for more than 15 seconds) earlier in the flight and the elevator deflection you are commanding would stall the jet.
Where did you read so ?
Please, again, do not talk with such certitude when you don't know the system.
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 15:29
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OK, CONF, I'm happy to be proved wrong - enlighten me - when else will the Airbus FBW system limit a *pitch up* command from the sidestick *other than beyond alpha max* in *Normal Law*?

(Bear in mind I'm referring to some dusty old notes I made in my Software Engineering class back in 1997)
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 16:27
  #1325 (permalink)  
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Surely the THS MUST respond to SS elevator demand? There can be no other function for it. The problem is that no-one KNEW that it had. This is either a basic lack of knowledge of the a/c or a total blank-out of understanding in a crisis, and I do not know which.

Way back (after PGF) I suggested that surely there must be a THS angle, (AB, or Boeing - viz AMS) beyond which one should not normally stray, and that a mandatory 'Over-ride' function should be required before the THS is permitted to move past this limit, which has the effect of alerting the crew to what is happening and yet giving them the option of doing it if they feel it necessary.

Strong nose-up THS forces have caused or threatened too many accidents.
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 16:31
  #1326 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf 50
If I may appeal to Occam's Razor, given that it is around two in the morning, (three Rio time?) isn't she more likely to have been in her seat, in the cabin, asleep? She has two boys waiting for her in Paris.
Crash time was 23h14 Rio, 04h14 Paris and 02h14UTC.
For a French crew (concerning fatigue), the primary reference time should still be Paris, even if they stayed few days in Brazil.
I agree with you that it is highly improbable that Pilot's wife was in the cockpit rather than resting/sleeping in the cabin. Recovering cockpit seats seems a basic investigation work. The fact that the third seat was not supposed recovered doesn't tell anything about its state nor that the fourth was occupied. The fact that pilot's seats were recovered doesn't tell anything about their occupants bodies, certainly not that they were recovered seated and used for subsequent DNA tests, and so on...
That's tabloid speculation.
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 16:42
  #1327 (permalink)  
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Additionally, "section 1.11.3" is mentioning that it is possible to mine further data from the on board computers that were retrieved, in regards to the sequence of speed calculations and rejection, around 2:10:xx as they have non-volatile storage that may still hold readable data. This is work and effort that is planned, so additional information will be available in a next report.
Yes, I thought I read that, so thank you for confirming it - my French is limited but I've been able to glean some information from the report.

I recall that the NTSB used this technique on the Cali AA B757 crash - they were able to read the processors from the CDUs, Control Display Units for the aircraft's FMC system to determine the last entries made, confirming why the turn was made towards the mountains during the descent.

This may help in determining the answer to HN39s original question about the two second delay between the AFS disengagement, and the loss of airspeed presentations on the left PFD and the ISIS.
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 16:58
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Hi PJ2,
Originally Posted by PJ2
This may help in determining the answer to HN39s original question about the two second delay between the AFS disengagement, and the loss of airspeed presentations on the left PFD and the ISIS.
I'm not sure at all that the speed curve called "Vitesse conventionnelle" is refering to ADR1 (left PFD). Vc should be the system airspeed consolidated from 3 ADRs outputs and ISIS source is also different from ADR3.

BEA is mentionning that they will reconstruct ADR2 outputs from system logic. that FMGC 1&2, FCDC 1&2 and ISIS non volatile memories would be recovered and analysed in priority. It is still work in progress.
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 17:18
  #1329 (permalink)  
 
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again s 114.

in the time between 2:12 and 2:13 the pitch in the report is between 8deg and -8deg so if you try to fly pitch and power this time was not so bad looking, but it helps nothing he was not flying in this time, he was stalling pitch and power....

if I look at the acceleration longitudenale of this time periode and later than it is very interesting that there is all the time a acceleration longitudenal between -0,05 and -0,15, IMO this mean that you all the time has the feeling that the acceleration press you back in the seat as if the speed is ingreasing

there are two possibilitis to have the feeling of such an acceleration longituenale, you can speed up to the front or you can sit with an backangle, the feeling is the same , this effekt is called one of the somaticgravic illusions (MIMPE and MICROBURST pointed out this earlier) and every flight simulator use this effekt for the simulation of longitudenal acceleratin.....[/FONT]
UC Berkeley Vision Science || Bank's Lab

2 h 11 min 41PF:I have the impression (that we have) the speed
2 h 12 min 07 PF: I have the impression that we have a very high speed,

so the feeling of the PF seems to be all the time he was speeding up.... and has to pull...........

and I am wondering why the acceleration is so constantly with this great changes in pitch? is the pictured pitch with -8deg plausible at 2:12:00 and 2:12:50 ???
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 17:44
  #1330 (permalink)  
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If, BOAC, PNF had arisen and opened the cockpit door for Captain duBois, that explains the possibility you broach re: #1 seat recovered sans Pilot.
It also would explain the seat's emptiness at discovery. Did PNF re-belt? We think Captain did not, so.....
 
Old 2nd Aug 2011, 17:47
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Transcript, NOTE and ACARS

Sorry for the long post, but here is the prior work on the transcript with the BEA NOTE and ACARS

2 h 10 min 05
Cavalry charge (Alarme de déconnexion du pilote automatique)
Cavalry charge (Autopilot disconnect alarm)
ACARS
2:10:10 WRN/WN0906010210 221002006AUTO FLT AP OFF
2:10:16 WRN/WN0906010210 226201006AUTO FLT REAC W/S DET FAULT
2:10:23 WRN/WN0906010210 279100506F/CTL ALTN LAW
2:10:29 WRN/WN0906010210 228300206FLAG ON CAPT PFD SPD LIMIT
2:10:34 0210/+2.98-30.59
2:10:41 WRN/WN0906010210 228301206FLAG ON F/O PFD SPD LIMIT
2:10:47 WRN/WN0906010210 223002506AUTO FLT A/THR OFF
2:10:54 WRN/WN0906010210 344300506NAV TCAS FAULT
2:11:00 WRN/WN0906010210 228300106FLAG ON CAPT PFD FD
2:11:15 WRN/WN0906010210 228301106FLAG ON F/O PFD FD
2:11:21 WRN/WN0906010210 272302006F/CTL RUD TRV LIM FAULT
2:11:27 WRN/WN0906010210 279045506MAINTENANCE STATUS EFCS 2 2:11:42 WRN/WN0906010210 279045006MAINTENANCE STATUS EFCS 1 2:11:49 FLR/FR0906010210 34111506EFCS2 1,EFCS1,AFS,,,,,PROBE-PITOT 1X2 / 2X3 / 1X3 (9DA),HARD
2:11:55 FLR/FR0906010210 27933406EFCS1 X2,EFCS2X,,,,,,FCPC2 (2CE2) /WRG:ADIRU1 BUS ADR1-2 TO FCPC2,HARD

BEA NOTE: From 2 h 10 min 05, the autopilot then auto-thrust disengaged and the PF said "I have the controls". The airplane began to roll to the right and the PF made a left nose-up input. The stall warning sounded twice in a row. The recorded parameters show a sharp fall from about 275 kt to 60 kt in the speed displayed on the left primary flight display (PFD), then a few moments later in the speed displayed on the integrated standby instrument system (ISIS).

2 h 10 min 06
PF: J’ai les commandes
I have control

2 h 10 min 09
PF: Ignition start
Ignition start

02 h 10 min 10.4 :
VS : « Stall, stall » (sans cricket)
VS: "Stall, stall" (without cricket)

2 h 10 min 11
PNF: Qu’est ce que c’est que ça ?
What's that ?

2 h 10 min 13
VS : « Stall, S »
VS: "Stall, S"

2 h 10 min 14
PF: On n’a pas une bonne… On n’a pas une bonne annonce de…
We don't have a good... we don't have a good indication of ...


2 h 10 min 16
BEA NOTE: At 2 h 10 min 16, the PNF said "so, we’ve lost the speeds" then "alternate law […]".The airplane’s pitch attitude increased progressively beyond 10 degrees and the plane started to climb. The PF made nose-down control inputs and alternately left and right roll inputs. The vertical speed, which had reached 7,000 ft/min, dropped to 700 ft/min and the roll varied between 12 degrees right and 10 degrees left. The speed displayed on the left side increased sharply to 215 kt (Mach 0.68). The airplane was then at an altitude of about 37,500 ft and the recorded angle of attack was around 4 degrees.

2 h 10 min 17
PNF: On a perdu les les les vitesses alors… engine thrust A T H R engine lever thrust
We've lost the the the speeds so ... engine thrust A T H R (off) engine lever thrust

2 h 10 min 18
PF: … de vitesse
... of speed

2 h 10 min 22
PNF: Alternate law protections
Alternate law protections

2 h 10 min 24
PNF: Attends on est en train de perdre…
Wait we're losing...

2 h 10 min 25
PNF: Wing anti-ice
Wing anti-ice

2 h 10 min 27 to 2 h 10 min 31
PNF: Fais attention à ta vitesse Fais attention à ta vitesse
Watch your speed Watch your speed

PF: Okay, okay okay je redescends
ok ok ok I'm going back down

PNF: Tu stabilises
stabilize (“stay there”)

PF: Ouais
Yeah

PNF: Tu redescends
You're going back down

2 h 10 min 33
PNF: Selon les trois tu montes donc tu redescends
According to the three you're going up, so you go back down (meaning the three vertical speed indicators... )

2 h 10 min 35
PF: D’accord
Agreed

2 h 10 min 36
PNF: T’es à ... Redescends
You're at ... go back down !

PF: C’est parti on (re)descend
On our way we're going (back) down

2 h 10 min 39 to 2 h 10 min 46
PNF: Je te mets en en A T T
I'm putting you in in A T T

2 h 10 min 42
PF: On est en ouais on est en climb
We're in yeah we're in climb

2 h 10 min 49
PNF: (…) il est où euh ?
Uh, where is he?

2 h 10 min 50
BEA NOTE: From 2 h 10 min 50, the PNF tried several times to call the Captain back.

2 h 10 min 51
VS : « Stall, stall » + cricket en continu
Stall alarm starts [continues until 2 h 11 min 45]

BEA NOTE: At 2 h 10 min 51, the stall warning was triggered again. The thrust levers were positioned in the TO/GA detent and the PF maintained nose-up inputs. The recorded angle of attack, of around 6 degrees at the triggering of the stall warning, continued to increase. The trimmable horizontal stabilizer (THS) passed from 3 to 13 degrees nose-up in about 1 minute and remained in the latter position until the end of the flight. Around fifteen seconds later, the speed displayed on the ISIS increased sharply towards 185 kt;it was then consistent with the other recorded speed. The PF continued to make nose-up inputs. The airplane’s altitude reached its maximum of about 38,000 ft, its pitch attitude and angle of attack being 16 degrees.

2 h 10 min 56
PF: (TOGA)
(TOGA)

2 h 11
PNF: Surtout essaie de toucher le moins possible les commandes en en latéral hein
Above all, try to touch the controls as little as possible in in lateral, hey ?!

ACARS
2:12:10 WRN/WN0906010211 341200106FLAG ON CAPT PFD FPV
2:12:16 WRN/WN0906010211 341201106FLAG ON F/O PFD FPV
Initial event messages in que, delayed transmission.

2 h 11 min 03
PF: Je suis en TOGA hein ?
I'm in TOGA, no ?

2 h 11 min 06
PNF: (…) il vient ou pas
Is he coming or not ?

2 h 11 min 21
PF: On a pourtant les moteurs qu’est-ce qui se passe (…) ?
We've got the engines yet (nothing is happening...),. what's going on (...)?

2 h 11 min 32
PF: (…) je n’ai plus le contrôle de l’avion là J’ai plus du tout le contrôle de l’avion
I no longer have control of the plane; I no longer have any control at all of the plane

2 h 11 min 38
PNF: Commande à gauche
Controls to the left

2 h 11 min 40
BEA NOTE: At around 2 h 11 min 40 , the Captain re-entered the cockpit. During the following seconds, all of the recorded speeds became invalid and the stall warning stopped. The altitude was then about 35,000 ft, the angle of attack exceeded 40 degrees and the vertical speed was about -10,000 ft/min. The airplane’s pitch attitude did not exceed 15 degrees and the engines’ N1’s were close to 100%. The airplane was subject to roll oscillations that sometimes reached 40 degrees. The PF made an input on the sidestick to the left and nose-up stops, which lasted about 30 seconds.

2 h 11 min 41
PF: J’ai l’impression (qu’on a de) la vitesse
I have the impression (that we have) some speed

2 h 11 min 43
[Bruit d’ouverture de la porte du cockpit]
[Sound of the cockpit door opening]

CAP: Eh qu’est-ce que vous (faites) ?
Hey what are you doing?

PNF: Qu’est-ce qui se passe ? Je ne sais pas je sais pas ce qui se passe
What's happening? I don't know I don't know what's happening

2 h 11 min 45
Fin de l’alarme « Stall, stall » + cricket
Stall alarm stops

2 h 11 min 52
CAP: Alors tiens prends prends ça
So here take take that

2 h 11 min 53
VS : « Stall, stall » + cricket incomplet
VS: "Stall, stall" + cricket, incomplete

2 h 11 min 55
VS : « Stall, stall » + cricket incomplet
VS: "Stall, stall" + cricket, incomplete

2 h 11 min 58
PF: J’ai un problème c’est que j’ai plus de vario là
I have a problem it's that I no longer have vertical speed
CAP: D’accord
OK

PF: J’ai plus aucune indication
I no longer have any indication

2 h 12 min 02
BEA NOTE: At 2 h 12 min 02, the PF said "I don’t have any more indications", and the PNF said "we have no valid indications". At that moment, the thrust levers were in the IDLE detent and the engines’ N1’s were at 55%. Around fifteen seconds later, the PF made pitch-down inputs. In the following moments, the angle of attack decreased, the speeds became valid again and the stall warning sounded again.

2 h 12 min 04 to 2 h 12 min 07
PF: J’ai l’impression qu’on a une vitesse de fou non qu’est-ce que vous en pensez ?
I have the impression that we have some crazy speed, don’t we ?.. what do you think ?

2 h 12 min 07
PNF: Non surtout ne ne (les) sors pas
No, in any case, don't don't extend them

VS : « Stall, stall »

2 h 12 min 10
VS : « Stall, stall » + cricket incomplet

2 h 12 min 13
PNF: Qu’est-ce que tu en penses qu’est-ce que tu en penses, qu’est-ce qu’il faut faire ?
What do you think ?what do you think ? what do we have to do?

2 h 12 min 15 to 2 h 12 min 19
CAP: Là je sais pas là ça descend
I don't know we're going down

2 h 12 min 17
VS : « Priority right »

2 h 12 min 19 to 2 h 12 min 45
PF: Là c’est bon là on serait revenu les ailes à plat, non il veut (pas)
there ! that's good ! we'd be back to wings level, no he (doesn't) wan't to

CAP: Les ailes à plat ... l’horizon l’horizon de secours
Wings level ... the horizon the backup horizon

PNF: L’horizon
The horizon

2 h 12 min 26
PNF: La vitesse ?
The speed?

2 h 12 min 27
PNF: Tu montes ...
You're going up ...

VS : « Stall, stall »

PNF: Tu descends descends descends descends
go down go down go down go down

2 h 12 min 30
PF: Je suis en train de descendre là ?
Am I going down?

PNF: Descend !
Go down

2 h 12 min 32
CAP: Non tu montes là
No you're going up, now

2 h 12 min 33
PF: Là je monte okay alors on descend
There I'm going up ok so let's go down

2 h 12 min 34
VS : « Stall, stall » + cricket incomplet

2 h 12 min 39
PF: Okay on est en TOGA
ok, we're in TOGA

2 h 12 min 40
VS : « Stall, stall » + cricket en continu
Stall alarm starts [continues until 2 h 12 min 46]

2 h 12 min 42
PF: En alti on a quoi là ?
In alti[tude] we're at what, here?

2 h 12 min 44
CAP: (…) C’est pas possible
It's not possible

2 h 12 min 45
PF: En alti on a quoi ?
In alti[tude] we're at what ?

ACARS
2:12:51 WRN/WN0906010212 341040006NAV ADR DISAGREE
Assumes 6 second transmission time, no other message in que.

[*** during the following 19 seconds of speech, the stall alarm stops for 3 seconds, and then restarts for another 8 seconds. The transcript does not indicate the exact times for the pilots' speech, or where these stops and starts occur in relation to the speech: ***]

2 h 12 min 46
Fin de l’alarme « Stall, stall » + cricket
Stall alarm stops

2 h 12 min 49
VS : « Stall, stall » + cricket en continu
Stall alarm starts

2 h 12 min 57
Fin de l’alarme « Stall, stall » + cricket
Stall alarm stops

[*** now here's the pilots' speech for that time interval: ***]

2 h 12 min 45 to 2 h 13 min 04
PNF: Comment ça en altitude ?
What do you mean in altitude?

PF: Ouais ouais ouais j’descends là non ?
yeah yeah yeah i'm going down now, no?

PNF: Là tu descends oui
You're going down now, yes

CAP: Hé tu ... tu es en… Mets mets les ailes horizontales
hey you ... you're in ... put put the wings level

PNF: Mets les ailes horizontales
Put the wings level

C’est ce que je cherche à faire
That's what I'm trying to do

CAP: Mets les ailes horizontales
Put the wings level

2 h 12 min 59
PF: Je suis à fond à… avec du gauchissement
I'm at the limit of the stick... to the left

CAP: Le palonnier
Rudder pedals

2 h 13 min 02
ACARS
2:13:08 FLR/FR0906010211 34220006ISIS 1,,,,,,,ISIS(22FN-10FC) SPEED OR MACH FUNCTION,HARD
2:13:14 FLR/FR0906010211 34123406IR2 1,EFCS1X,IR1,IR3,,,,ADIRU2 (1FP2),HARD
Assumes 6 second transmission with no other messages in que

2 h 13 min 23 :
VS : « Dual input »

2 h 13 min 25
PF: Qu’est-ce qu’y… comment ça se fait qu’on continue à descendre à fond là?
What is... how come we're continuing to descend so fast?

2 h 13 min 28
PNF: Essaye de trouver ce que tu peux faire avec tes commandes là-haut Les primaires et cetera
Try to see what you can do with your controls up there. The primaries etc

2 h 13 min 32
PF: au niveau cent
At level 100

BEA NOTE: At 2 h 13 min 32, the PF said "we’re going to arrive at level one hundred". About fifteen seconds later, simultaneous inputs by both pilots on the sidesticks were recorded and the PF said "go ahead you have the controls".

2 h 13 min 36
PF: Neuf mille pieds
9000 feet

2 h 13 min 38
CAP: Doucement avec le palonnier là
Easy with the rudder

2 h 13 min 39
PNF: Remonte remonte remonte remonte
Climb climb climb climb (literally, "remonte" is "climb back up")

[*** another sequence where the transcript does not splice the VS and the pilots' speech together: ***]

2 h 13 min 41 :
VS : « Dual input »

ACARS
2:13:45 WRN/WN0906010213 279002506F/CTL PRIM 1 FAULT
2:13:51 WRN/WN0906010213 279004006F/CTL SEC 1 FAULT
Assumes 6 second transmission, no other messages in que
Also 2:13:16 ~ 2:13:41 Possible "Loss of Signal" with satellite

2 h 13 min 43 :
VS : « Dual input »

2 h 13 min 45 :
VS : « Dual input »

2 h 13 min 47 :
VS : « Dual input »

2 h 13 min 40
PF: Mais je suis à fond à cabrer depuis tout à l’heure
But I've been pulling to the back stop for a good while

CAP: Non non non ne remonte pas
No no no don't climb back up

PNF: Alors descend
Go down, then

2 h 13 min 45
PNF: Alors donne-moi les commandes à moi les commandes
So give the me controls. I have control

PF: Vas-y tu as les commandes on est en TOGA toujours hein
Go on, you have control. We're still in TOGA, right ?

2 h 13 min 55
VS : « Stall, stall » + cricket en continu
Stall alarm starts

2 h 14 min 03
Fin de l’alarme « Stall, stall » + cricket
Stall alarm stops

2 h 14 min 05
CAP: Attention tu cabres là
Watch it, you're pitching up

PNF: Je cabre ?
I'm pitching up?

PF: Ben il faudrait on est à quatre mille pieds
Well, we should, we're at 4000 feet

2 h 14 min 08
ACARS
2:14:14 WRN/WN0906010214 341036006MAINTENANCE STATUS ADR 2
2:14:20 FLR/FR0906010213 22833406AFS 1 FMGEC1(1CA1),INTERMITTENT
2:14:26 WRN/WN0906010214 213100206ADVISORY CABIN VERTICAL SPEED
Assumes 6 second transmission, no other messages in que
2 h 14 min 17
VS : « Sink rate »
VS : « Pull up » (3x)

2 h 14 min 18
CAP: Allez tire
Go on, pull

PF: Allez on tire on tire on tire on tire
Go on, we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling we're pulling !

2 h 14 min 21 to end
VS : « Pull up » (4x)

2 h 14 min 26 to end
CAP: (Dix) degrés d’assiette
(Ten) degrees of trim

2 h 14 min 28.4
[Fin des enregistrements]
[End of data]
BEA NOTE: The recordings stopped at 2 h 14 min 28. The last recorded values were a vertical speed of -10,912 ft/min, a ground speed of 107 kt, pitch attitude of 16.2 degrees nose-up, roll angle of 5.3 degrees left and a magnetic heading of 270 degrees.
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 18:10
  #1332 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bearfoil
If, BOAC, PNF had arisen and opened the cockpit door for Captain duBois, that explains the possibility you broach re: #1 seat recovered sans Pilot.
It also would explain the seat's emptiness at discovery. Did PNF re-belt? We think Captain did not, so.....
What would explain what is based on few facts:
1.12.4.2.1 3 Les sièges du cockpit
Sur le siège situé en place gauche, les ceintures ventrales étaient attachées, la ceinture de l’entrejambe et les harnais d’épaules ne l’étaient pas.
Sur le siège situé en place droite aucune ceinture n’était attachée.

At impact, PF wasn't belted, PNF was.

Vers 2 h 11 min 42, le commandant de bord rentre dans le poste de pilotage, très peu de temps avant que l’alarme de décrochage s’arrête.
CVR: 2 h 11 min 43: Bruit d’ouverture de la porte du cockpit
No pilot is reported to have opened the cockpit door - sound of door's opening is recorded: captain is back while pilots are doing their task. Nor anywhere is it reported that the captain was ever seated.
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 18:48
  #1333 (permalink)  
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Hi takata. good morning.

I have been reading at least six people whose posts I admire greatly. They are not convinced of the seating, so I am definitely not persuaded!

Look, the last thing I do in crash drill is unbelt, a sign to me that we are arrivee. A buckled belt is proof of belt connection, a lack thereof could be anything. If I am going to drown, (I care not what the instruments say, I can swim!), the belts come off, so the cockpit is not well known.

The conversation is.

At 2;11:40, the PF input NOSE UP, and Left ROLL to the stops.

Sound familiar? A similar input at A/P loss is recorded, n'est-ce pas?

So PF has input these two recorded parameters. He is constantly yammering about his controls, and comments several times to indicate his PITCH command is wack.

There was something "wrong" with this Aircraft...........


takata:

I admit, regretfully, that I oversold the VS damage. If it has soured anyone on even casually addressing airframe damage, I am profoundly sorry.......
 
Old 2nd Aug 2011, 18:49
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takata, I agree with your summary.

But the summary presumes that the captain is able to re-enter the cockpit by himself. If he cannot, would you not think that the BEA would note that the PNF had to leave his seat to open the door for him at a most critical time in the flight?
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 18:54
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bearfoil
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SATURNV

Mega respects, kind Sir. The BEA have presumed nothing. Neither has their report. I will offer, having been involved in these teams, (NOT BEA), that parsed and spooned rhetoric can be completely innocent, and taken in very dark ways.

In damage control, we say "FIRST RULE, do not CREATE MORE".
 
Old 2nd Aug 2011, 19:04
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Hi SaturnV
Originally Posted by SaturnV
But the summary presumes that the captain is able to re-enter the cockpit by himself.
Why would one think that he wasn't able to enter? Why would one think that there is a discussion about CVRs "sounds" -including the fact that the door was left open at one point, then closed when the captain left for resting - and nothing about captain's knocking at the door at 2:13:42.7, then someone standing for opening to him?

@Bearfoil,
There is absolutely no discussion about who was seated where: neither who was doing what; facts: PF (PIC) was seated in the right hand seat; PNF was seated in the left hand seat. Who discussed those facts in your fertile imagination? We had previous discussion about whilch of the two pilots was PF or PNF, until the report. Now it is closed.
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 19:15
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SaturnV wrote "But the summary presumes that the captain is able to re-enter the cockpit by himself. If he cannot, would you not think that the BEA would note that the PNF had to leave his seat to open the door for him at a most critical time in the flight? "

With the importance of the words and actions of PF & PNF it seems inconceivable that the BEA would not note PNF arising from his seat and allowing the Captain to enter the flight deck.

Any such action would impact upon the focus PNF would have (I assume it would be he) on the developing situation.

Unless there was a third party on the flight deck able to do open the door or the Captain had a way to enter that did not require the intervention of PF/PNF?

Someone occupying seat four on the flightdeck?

The BEA should have addressed this issue in the report - stating just who was on the flight deck - for the avoidance of doubt and speculation. Their raising of seat four from the crash site has indicated some issue that needed to be investigated.

It would not be out of place for them to address this matter now.
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 19:23
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bearfoil
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There are other definitions for seat that you may be missing. Other than geographical.
 
Old 2nd Aug 2011, 19:31
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takata, if they left the cockpit door unlocked while the captain took his rest, I believe that would be a security violation.

I assume Air France policy and procedures require the cockpit door to be locked, and that once locked, the door can only be unlocked from the inside. If that is true, and only the PF and PNF are in the cockpit, then the PNF would need to leave his seat to unlock the door and let the captain return, and the PNF would then again take his seat, fasten his belt, and see what had happened in the __ seconds it took him to let the captain in.
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 19:42
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bearfoil
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takata,

Have you trained UAS in the sim? The one where conditions are unbelievably bad, and three separate pilots are trying to fly the a/c?

And if you fail, a bullet to the brain?

Each seat has its own "gestalt". Authority can occupy any, but only one at a time.

NEVER, EVER, TWO. It is not a goddam democracy.
 

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