QANTAS A380 Uncontained failure.
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DozyWannabe
Although a fan blade broke on this engine, it was actually the stage 1 LP compressor blade that was the problem:
Analysis of the engine from the crash determined that the fan blades (LP Stage 1 compressor) of the uprated CFM56 engine used on the 737-400 were subject to abnormal amounts of vibration when operating at high power settings above 25,000 feet (7,600 m). As it was an upgrade to an existing engine, in-flight testing was not mandatory, and the engine had only been tested in the laboratory. Upon this discovery all 99 Boeing 737-400s (since G-OBME had crashed) were grounded and the engines modified. Following the crash, it is now mandatory to test all newly designed and significantly redesigned turbofan engines under representative flight conditions.
This unnoticed vibration created excessive metal fatigue in the fan blades, and on G-OBME this caused one of the fan blades to break off. This damaged the engine terminally and also upset its delicate balance, causing a reduction in power and an increase in vibration. The autothrottle attempted to compensate for this by increasing the fuel flow to the engine, however the damaged engine was unable to burn all the additional fuel, with much of it igniting in the exhaust flow, creating a large trail of flame behind the engine.
Although a fan blade broke on this engine, it was actually the stage 1 LP compressor blade that was the problem:
Analysis of the engine from the crash determined that the fan blades (LP Stage 1 compressor) of the uprated CFM56 engine used on the 737-400 were subject to abnormal amounts of vibration when operating at high power settings above 25,000 feet (7,600 m). As it was an upgrade to an existing engine, in-flight testing was not mandatory, and the engine had only been tested in the laboratory. Upon this discovery all 99 Boeing 737-400s (since G-OBME had crashed) were grounded and the engines modified. Following the crash, it is now mandatory to test all newly designed and significantly redesigned turbofan engines under representative flight conditions.
This unnoticed vibration created excessive metal fatigue in the fan blades, and on G-OBME this caused one of the fan blades to break off. This damaged the engine terminally and also upset its delicate balance, causing a reduction in power and an increase in vibration. The autothrottle attempted to compensate for this by increasing the fuel flow to the engine, however the damaged engine was unable to burn all the additional fuel, with much of it igniting in the exhaust flow, creating a large trail of flame behind the engine.
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For Qantas to abide by Rolls-Royce's derated take-off thrust guidelines, A380 flights LAX would carry only 80 passengers due to payload restrictions.
Ok flights are full i.e. 60 t payload. All engines are "C" build and flights will be twice a day in the near future as it was prior to the incident
If you look at the date of print, mid December. It was an eternity ago in this saga as I don’t think many staff involved in the T900 project had any leave over Christmas. There has been much correspondence between the 2 companies (RR & QF ) since.
RR has blessed a list of QF engines capable to do the flights at thrust ratings required.
If the 75 cycles rule with 2 LAX departures a day is applied to QF with a fleet of 9 it would need to re-engine in a little over 330 days. With the current availability of 5 LAX approved aircraft a re-engine would be required in 190 days. 20 engines after 190 days flying ??
. RR cannot make engines or modules quick enough to cope with this demand.
Some pruners mention the IP coupling. Yes it is inspected for wear every 100 cycles.
Has anyone changed an engine yet due to coupling wear? Probably not ,due to the new engine builds being compulsory fitted but RR now has dozens of engines to draw data from regarding the wear. I guess we shall see which part RR redesign first?
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Hiya. Actually there was an engine change due Spline wear, but the Brass at RR call it an oil fire, not specifically Spline Smoothies. #2. QF32.
Given what's known, and your perspective, it is at least a good guess that RR have mitigated the cause of Spline damage by acceding to Inspections, as to my way of thinking, they are eating canal mud on LAX SYD.
No, not really. They have mitigated the focus on the actual problem by eating a swap/strip/rebuild at an agreed interval. This interval is Qantas' schedule, and EASA/ATSB mandates, with input by RR. Most expensive, but the alternative is a re-design to eliminate Resonance discovered in 972 test, but ignored because it was a "family tradition" to mimic previous test and banked approvals via certificates in the dusty files.
Who throws in the towel first?? I think RR will keep eating. They cannot retool and recertify, and "Continued Airworthiness" via a Permanent AD is too, what, Public??
There is precedent for engine swaps, Bolty, dozens of them. The Firm dog chewed a relaxed inspection interval by convincing EASA that the Splines would be "just as well" investigated with "averaged" crest wear at abutments instead of a mandated strip search at "worst case wear" involving but one Spline per Coupling set. This is in the Public AD divulgences, and speaks volumes.
Oil is hot because the engine is light, floppy, and viscous deficient with time in case of approved oils. The FOHE also does a crap job of cooling the oil when Fuel is Warm, just after launch, just as it does a crap job of heating Fuel when the engine is cold soaked, and the Oil is cold soaked, (At Altitude, or long CDA) or missing, due bypass to Air cooled Route in the Oil Path. It's all in there, and the Splines are complicit, but only as the canaries, just as the Bearings, Oil Tubes, and Oil system are likewise.
Given what's known, and your perspective, it is at least a good guess that RR have mitigated the cause of Spline damage by acceding to Inspections, as to my way of thinking, they are eating canal mud on LAX SYD.
No, not really. They have mitigated the focus on the actual problem by eating a swap/strip/rebuild at an agreed interval. This interval is Qantas' schedule, and EASA/ATSB mandates, with input by RR. Most expensive, but the alternative is a re-design to eliminate Resonance discovered in 972 test, but ignored because it was a "family tradition" to mimic previous test and banked approvals via certificates in the dusty files.
Who throws in the towel first?? I think RR will keep eating. They cannot retool and recertify, and "Continued Airworthiness" via a Permanent AD is too, what, Public??
There is precedent for engine swaps, Bolty, dozens of them. The Firm dog chewed a relaxed inspection interval by convincing EASA that the Splines would be "just as well" investigated with "averaged" crest wear at abutments instead of a mandated strip search at "worst case wear" involving but one Spline per Coupling set. This is in the Public AD divulgences, and speaks volumes.
Oil is hot because the engine is light, floppy, and viscous deficient with time in case of approved oils. The FOHE also does a crap job of cooling the oil when Fuel is Warm, just after launch, just as it does a crap job of heating Fuel when the engine is cold soaked, and the Oil is cold soaked, (At Altitude, or long CDA) or missing, due bypass to Air cooled Route in the Oil Path. It's all in there, and the Splines are complicit, but only as the canaries, just as the Bearings, Oil Tubes, and Oil system are likewise.
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That is a very interesting set of comments. I've been intending to put up some information about splines, spline design matters, and my thoughts on vibration related to splines. I just wanted to find an example that backed up those thoughts, and I found it a couple of days ago. It was a 7th harmonic vibration in the particular example. A high harmonic is what I was thinking. As hard for me to find such a report as it was for them to find the 7th harmonic.
Looks like you have decoded the recent reports on Qantas actions and comments. I read a set of several over on Flight Global this afternoon. Apparently we both now believe that every 75 take-offs from LAX four engines are going to be scrapped (or very substantially rebuilt?). So this will have to take place back at the real factory, not at the two special RR-900 qualified shops out in the field, no?
Looks like you have decoded the recent reports on Qantas actions and comments. I read a set of several over on Flight Global this afternoon. Apparently we both now believe that every 75 take-offs from LAX four engines are going to be scrapped (or very substantially rebuilt?). So this will have to take place back at the real factory, not at the two special RR-900 qualified shops out in the field, no?
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Eureka. EASA cannot allow averaged wear format any longer, and must revert to single case (5mm crest) strip. No one strips an engine and then does not replace parts on reassembly. The Parts? Every Spline has a sister, and that means both stub Shafts of IP and LP modules. If there is an upgrade in any thing pertinent to the AD, the FAA will get a smell, and that means everyone will know. Let's get further into the strip and r/r. All rotating mass will be affected by the resonant's dirty work, so who calls the replacement relative to time in service, wear gross clearances, and risk/benefit verse Capital outlay?? His is a very pivotal role. Bearings, Splines, Labyrinthines, Carbon residue in the FOHE, vent pipes, clean? replace? Will the Magnetic chip sensors tell a tale? Oil Pump (both) plus scavenge pumps, filters?? To get the eight modules apart, and then not rebuild sufficiently means doing it again with off wing and replace with new engine or park the Whale? How long? The numbers quoted as costs to Rolls are ridiculously low. Qantas will not pursue their suit (and give up those nuts in the vise??) Haste makes waste. IMO
Disclosure and honesty are the shortcut to healing all mistakes. The other way is exhaustive, expensive, and potentially lethal. Collective Pride.
Disclosure and honesty are the shortcut to healing all mistakes. The other way is exhaustive, expensive, and potentially lethal. Collective Pride.
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Swarf in the oil
I have seen a report where one of the Qantas T972s had metal chips on the magnet trap SEE BELOW Glad OE has posted!
This is the type of metal trap we are talking about
Vibro-Meter Magnetic Chip Detectors and Chip Collectors
In fact the 900 series is the first to have a chip detector that sends messages back to base. It is detailed, along with the other sensors on the engine here..
http://www.ingenia.org.uk/ingenia/is...e39/Waters.pdf
and moreover
Ingenia Articles
Qantas A380 engine had problems before explosion
6.12.2010 (Sydney Morning Herald)
It's been revealed that the engine that disintegrated on a Qantas Airbus A380 near Singapore last month had earlier been taken off the aircraft to fix another problem.
The Australian newspaper says investigators have revealed that the engine was only refitted in February.
An Australian Transport Safety Bureau report released last week shows the No 2 engine was originally fitted as the aircraft's No 4 engine but was removed last year after metal was found in a chip detector.
Chip detectors are often a permanent magnet used to gather metal fragments, usually from lubrication oil.
The relatively new engine had performed just 3419 flight hours and 416 landing and take-off cycles at the time.
The engine was sent to a Singapore workshop certified to maintain and repair Rolls-Royce engines in September last year.
Engineers found spalling in a low-pressure compressor bearing and replaced the bearing assembly. Spalling occurs when flakes break off from a larger component and is usually associated in mechanical systems with high-stress points.
The low-pressure compressor is a different part of the engine than the one that failed in the dramatic Singapore incident.
The repair was completed in December last year. The engine was fitted to the aircraft on February 24 and had completed a further 2895 flights.
This is the type of metal trap we are talking about
Vibro-Meter Magnetic Chip Detectors and Chip Collectors
In fact the 900 series is the first to have a chip detector that sends messages back to base. It is detailed, along with the other sensors on the engine here..
http://www.ingenia.org.uk/ingenia/is...e39/Waters.pdf
and moreover
Ingenia Articles
Qantas A380 engine had problems before explosion
6.12.2010 (Sydney Morning Herald)
It's been revealed that the engine that disintegrated on a Qantas Airbus A380 near Singapore last month had earlier been taken off the aircraft to fix another problem.
The Australian newspaper says investigators have revealed that the engine was only refitted in February.
An Australian Transport Safety Bureau report released last week shows the No 2 engine was originally fitted as the aircraft's No 4 engine but was removed last year after metal was found in a chip detector.
Chip detectors are often a permanent magnet used to gather metal fragments, usually from lubrication oil.
The relatively new engine had performed just 3419 flight hours and 416 landing and take-off cycles at the time.
The engine was sent to a Singapore workshop certified to maintain and repair Rolls-Royce engines in September last year.
Engineers found spalling in a low-pressure compressor bearing and replaced the bearing assembly. Spalling occurs when flakes break off from a larger component and is usually associated in mechanical systems with high-stress points.
The low-pressure compressor is a different part of the engine than the one that failed in the dramatic Singapore incident.
The repair was completed in December last year. The engine was fitted to the aircraft on February 24 and had completed a further 2895 flights.
Last edited by DERG; 18th Feb 2011 at 05:45.
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There is a Vickers Electric Master Chip Detector, which is installed at the combined scavenge return inlets (At the entrance to the Scavenge Filter), and nine Muirhead Vatric screw in Detectors at the inlet of each of:
Front Bearing Housing
Internal Gearbox (HP Rotor)
Internal Gearbox (Rear)
HP Turbine Bearing Chamber
IP Turbine Bearing Chamber
LP Turbine Bearing Chamber
Intermediate and Lower Bevel Gearboxes
External Gearbox
Centrifugal Breather
Ferrous metal is entrapped and conducts electricity across two poles in the detector.
If chips are in the Master, a specific screw in can be checked to ID the type of metal and from whence it came from the nine locations from the scavenge. Bits in Oil are of course, not good.
DERG
Are you referring to an ACARS prompt? Or a Total Care Alert at Derby?? Because the Vickers Electric Master Chip Detector sends a message to the cockpit, but ten minutes after landing. Metal in the master is what alerts the install of magnet probes by Mx to install smaller detectors (The Muirheads) in the nine scavenge ports before next flight, since normal operation of this engine (T9), has the Vickers only installed. Each smaller unit allows for narrowing down the location of the disintegrating part.
Front Bearing Housing
Internal Gearbox (HP Rotor)
Internal Gearbox (Rear)
HP Turbine Bearing Chamber
IP Turbine Bearing Chamber
LP Turbine Bearing Chamber
Intermediate and Lower Bevel Gearboxes
External Gearbox
Centrifugal Breather
Ferrous metal is entrapped and conducts electricity across two poles in the detector.
If chips are in the Master, a specific screw in can be checked to ID the type of metal and from whence it came from the nine locations from the scavenge. Bits in Oil are of course, not good.
DERG
Are you referring to an ACARS prompt? Or a Total Care Alert at Derby?? Because the Vickers Electric Master Chip Detector sends a message to the cockpit, but ten minutes after landing. Metal in the master is what alerts the install of magnet probes by Mx to install smaller detectors (The Muirheads) in the nine scavenge ports before next flight, since normal operation of this engine (T9), has the Vickers only installed. Each smaller unit allows for narrowing down the location of the disintegrating part.
Last edited by bearfoil; 18th Feb 2011 at 05:21.
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I'm using the Engine Manual. (TRENT 900) The manual is specific as to manufacturer of the Oil Debris sensing kit. Specifically, the Master Chip Detector is Electric, it uses a current of electricity to find ferrous bits in the detector (It is not a permanent magnet). The Vickers 'Electric' Master Chip Detector. The Muirhead Vatric Screw in Chip detectors are permanent magnet type units.
The replacement of the Bearing in the LP Compressor was discussed by Old Engineer some time back. I think it was determined that replacing the bearing was a good thing, but did not (rather obviously) solve the main problem, the Harmonic, which caused the bearing to fail in the first place. RR is back into replacing parts rather than admit the true problem and have to either scrap or redesign and re-certificate the 900.
The replacement of the Bearing in the LP Compressor was discussed by Old Engineer some time back. I think it was determined that replacing the bearing was a good thing, but did not (rather obviously) solve the main problem, the Harmonic, which caused the bearing to fail in the first place. RR is back into replacing parts rather than admit the true problem and have to either scrap or redesign and re-certificate the 900.
Last edited by bearfoil; 18th Feb 2011 at 05:40.
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In the ATSB prelim report there are pics of the graph plots of engine parameters. One of them is labelled "Oil Chemistry". If that includes a value for solid debris I do not know. Does anyone know please?
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Indeed
Agreed Bear. But after this event anything is possible!
THE MORAL ISSUE
The fact that people on the ground know more about the engines than the crew on the aircraft is UNBELIEVABLE.
The fact that this aircraft was designed for long distance oceanic and transcontinental routes inherently means that any communication system that relies on standard HF and VHF communications is flawed.
The Bayesians have been used to provide Rolls Royce with a cost monitoring tool with no regard to life and limb at the critical time.
This is the issue here. All the documents are focussed on $$$$ reduction.
Not safety.
What part did Sir John Rose play in this?
He saw exactly what was happening and decided he wanted no part of it.
It is one thing to use statistical methods for cost prediction but quite another to play the deity with the public. He left the company.
Good for him.
THE MORAL ISSUE
The fact that people on the ground know more about the engines than the crew on the aircraft is UNBELIEVABLE.
The fact that this aircraft was designed for long distance oceanic and transcontinental routes inherently means that any communication system that relies on standard HF and VHF communications is flawed.
The Bayesians have been used to provide Rolls Royce with a cost monitoring tool with no regard to life and limb at the critical time.
This is the issue here. All the documents are focussed on $$$$ reduction.
Not safety.
What part did Sir John Rose play in this?
He saw exactly what was happening and decided he wanted no part of it.
It is one thing to use statistical methods for cost prediction but quite another to play the deity with the public. He left the company.
Good for him.
Last edited by DERG; 18th Feb 2011 at 09:33. Reason: additional
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Here is the history of the #2 engine prior to failure from the ASTB report:
Take a look at the engine parameter chart again, you may want to print it out to see it better. The bottom graph is title "oil quantity", not "oil chemistry".
IMO, I think it more important for the ground mechanics to know that metal has been detected in the oil after each flight, or not, as is the setup on the A-380's. Chip detectors are there to signal the existance of wear in one or more of the bearings and it is up to the ground personnel to investigate and locate the source, not the flight deck crew. Think about it.
he No 2 engine was originally fitted to the aircraft in the No 4 engine position during aircraft manufacture, and was removed from the aircraft on 12 August 2009 due to metal being found on one of the engine’s chip detectors.16 That removal took place after 3,419 flight hours and 416 cycles.
In September 2009, the engine was sent to a workshop in Singapore for examination and repair. That workshop was certified to maintain and repair Rolls-Royce plc engines. Spalling of the top raceway of the low pressure compressor location bearing was identified and the bearing assembly was replaced. The repair was completed in December 2009.
The engine remained in storage until it was refitted to the aircraft as the No 2 engine on 24 February 2010. The engine had completed 2,895 flight hours and 261 cycles since that re-installation.
On 24 June 2010, Rolls-Royce plc Service Bulletin RB211-72-AG329: IP Shaft Rigid Coupling - borescope inspection of the coupling splines was carried out on the engine. That inspection was mandated by EASA AD 2010-0008 dated 15 January 2010, which was subsequently revised by EASA as AD 2010-0008R1 on 4 August 2010.
In September 2009, the engine was sent to a workshop in Singapore for examination and repair. That workshop was certified to maintain and repair Rolls-Royce plc engines. Spalling of the top raceway of the low pressure compressor location bearing was identified and the bearing assembly was replaced. The repair was completed in December 2009.
The engine remained in storage until it was refitted to the aircraft as the No 2 engine on 24 February 2010. The engine had completed 2,895 flight hours and 261 cycles since that re-installation.
On 24 June 2010, Rolls-Royce plc Service Bulletin RB211-72-AG329: IP Shaft Rigid Coupling - borescope inspection of the coupling splines was carried out on the engine. That inspection was mandated by EASA AD 2010-0008 dated 15 January 2010, which was subsequently revised by EASA as AD 2010-0008R1 on 4 August 2010.
IMO, I think it more important for the ground mechanics to know that metal has been detected in the oil after each flight, or not, as is the setup on the A-380's. Chip detectors are there to signal the existance of wear in one or more of the bearings and it is up to the ground personnel to investigate and locate the source, not the flight deck crew. Think about it.
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DERG
The Executive executes, he/she implements, enforces, and Leads. The Leadership may be Blessed, or not, and 'one monkey don't stop no Circus'.
Politics has as its main objective to distract, to Puff, to Bamboozle. Corporate Politics are no different. There is more Cachet than Cash, Eh? Personnel are interchangeable at the highest levels. The Board is the secret to navigation of troubled waters, and firing or resigning are popular arrows in the group's quiver.
Stock Price, Brochures, and Numbers. Engineering has become a supporting player.
Now that "Q" has passed, Rolls is at the mercy of Three Piece jackals who understand more about Money and Illusion than Oil and its Perfusion.
Turbine D
Thanks, very much, Sir. Cockpit alert for metal bits is as you say, "Huh"??
ACARS is the venue for maintenance, and even Total Care takes a minute to find out the good/bad news. If the ECAM shows metal in the Vickers, (Ten Minutes after wheels on), the mechanics start to decowl and place the Muirhead Vatric Magnets in Place, to narrow down the Trail. The a/c takes off again, next landing Sherlock and Watson get to work. Each magnet plug has a check valve so as to not spill oil in removal, the plot was well thought out in the first place. It is not so desperate as it sounds.
Correction?? I think there was a September amendment which allowed Rolls to average wear of the Splines as a Coupling UNIT instead of Strip if ONE Spline was found with minimum Crest Metal. The "Crest" had 2.65 mm of showing metal at its crest on assembly, and EASA and Rolls determined .5 mm was bad enough to warrant an off wing strip and "replacement". Later (September) Rolls was excused from the "hardship" of strip in favor of a more lax regimen wherein all Splines were measured, and strip was commanded if the "average" wear was .5 mm. Then comes November 4th, 2010, etc. etc.
just sayin'
The Executive executes, he/she implements, enforces, and Leads. The Leadership may be Blessed, or not, and 'one monkey don't stop no Circus'.
Politics has as its main objective to distract, to Puff, to Bamboozle. Corporate Politics are no different. There is more Cachet than Cash, Eh? Personnel are interchangeable at the highest levels. The Board is the secret to navigation of troubled waters, and firing or resigning are popular arrows in the group's quiver.
Stock Price, Brochures, and Numbers. Engineering has become a supporting player.
Now that "Q" has passed, Rolls is at the mercy of Three Piece jackals who understand more about Money and Illusion than Oil and its Perfusion.
Turbine D
Thanks, very much, Sir. Cockpit alert for metal bits is as you say, "Huh"??
ACARS is the venue for maintenance, and even Total Care takes a minute to find out the good/bad news. If the ECAM shows metal in the Vickers, (Ten Minutes after wheels on), the mechanics start to decowl and place the Muirhead Vatric Magnets in Place, to narrow down the Trail. The a/c takes off again, next landing Sherlock and Watson get to work. Each magnet plug has a check valve so as to not spill oil in removal, the plot was well thought out in the first place. It is not so desperate as it sounds.
Correction?? I think there was a September amendment which allowed Rolls to average wear of the Splines as a Coupling UNIT instead of Strip if ONE Spline was found with minimum Crest Metal. The "Crest" had 2.65 mm of showing metal at its crest on assembly, and EASA and Rolls determined .5 mm was bad enough to warrant an off wing strip and "replacement". Later (September) Rolls was excused from the "hardship" of strip in favor of a more lax regimen wherein all Splines were measured, and strip was commanded if the "average" wear was .5 mm. Then comes November 4th, 2010, etc. etc.
just sayin'
Last edited by bearfoil; 18th Feb 2011 at 14:31.
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Turnbine D Yes thanks I see now, my eyes have seen better days.
Bear That does not stop us seeking the truth though.
Heads up..here we go again: another oil loss and anther loose oil coupling.
NEW ENGINE EVENT IN FLIGHT ON FEB 15 2011
Investigation: AO-2011-026 - Partial power loss - Airbus, VH-OQC, near New Delhi International Airport, 15 February 2011
and
Qantas A380 finishes London flight on three engines – Plane Talking
"According to Qantas the issue that affected the engine has also been found on a Rolls-Royce powered A380 flown by another airline (meaning either with Singapore Airlines or Lufthansa) and it is one which has been raised with the engine maker and is neither the same nor as serious as the issue which saw the disintegration of an engine on QF32 shortly after leaving Singapore on November 4."
Quote from ATSB "During the cruise the crew observed a gradual decrease in the oil quantity for the number 4 engine. As a precaution the engine was reduced to idle for the remainder of the flight.
A subsequent engineering inspection found that the fitting of the external HP/IP oil line had less than the required torque. The investigation is continuing."
My thanks to a colleague on Australian Thread on this site poster"TBM-Legend"
Bear That does not stop us seeking the truth though.
Heads up..here we go again: another oil loss and anther loose oil coupling.
NEW ENGINE EVENT IN FLIGHT ON FEB 15 2011
Investigation: AO-2011-026 - Partial power loss - Airbus, VH-OQC, near New Delhi International Airport, 15 February 2011
and
Qantas A380 finishes London flight on three engines – Plane Talking
"According to Qantas the issue that affected the engine has also been found on a Rolls-Royce powered A380 flown by another airline (meaning either with Singapore Airlines or Lufthansa) and it is one which has been raised with the engine maker and is neither the same nor as serious as the issue which saw the disintegration of an engine on QF32 shortly after leaving Singapore on November 4."
Quote from ATSB "During the cruise the crew observed a gradual decrease in the oil quantity for the number 4 engine. As a precaution the engine was reduced to idle for the remainder of the flight.
A subsequent engineering inspection found that the fitting of the external HP/IP oil line had less than the required torque. The investigation is continuing."
My thanks to a colleague on Australian Thread on this site poster"TBM-Legend"
Last edited by DERG; 18th Feb 2011 at 15:35. Reason: news
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All I am is SLF. That's all. (That's all ?!?!? Well I'm damned important to me and my family !!)
So I don't know much about all this. Except it worries me quite a bit. When I board a plane I think I am entitled to expect the engines will stay in one piece. Usually they do. Maybe this Qantas debacle is a total oddity. But some of the stuff being unearthed by the incredibly clever people on here gives cause for concern. The more I read the worse it gets.
I would like to think that when something as immensely important as an airliner engine is designed and built everyone involved is issued with a list of "bear these firmly in mind in this order" reminders.
Reliability
Robustness
Dependability
Serviceability
Inspectability
Dismantleability
Repairability
Monitorability
Controlability
Transportability
blah blah blah and ending with
Minimum fuel burn
Minimum weight
Minimum cost.
Having built the engine pop it on the scales to see what it weighs, screw it to a wing and see if it works and how much it drinks. And those numbers get written on the box lid. Bobs your uncle.
Perhaps with the 900 they had the list upside down and built a flimsy under-strength flexible wobbler that wore out too quickly and shook itself to bits. Shortly they'll be inspecting the things so often they'll never take off.
And my unhappiness with only two engines over oceans instead of four has gone up a ratchet or four.
Don't SHOUT at me I'm only SLF. I'm entitled to my worries.
So I don't know much about all this. Except it worries me quite a bit. When I board a plane I think I am entitled to expect the engines will stay in one piece. Usually they do. Maybe this Qantas debacle is a total oddity. But some of the stuff being unearthed by the incredibly clever people on here gives cause for concern. The more I read the worse it gets.
I would like to think that when something as immensely important as an airliner engine is designed and built everyone involved is issued with a list of "bear these firmly in mind in this order" reminders.
Reliability
Robustness
Dependability
Serviceability
Inspectability
Dismantleability
Repairability
Monitorability
Controlability
Transportability
blah blah blah and ending with
Minimum fuel burn
Minimum weight
Minimum cost.
Having built the engine pop it on the scales to see what it weighs, screw it to a wing and see if it works and how much it drinks. And those numbers get written on the box lid. Bobs your uncle.
Perhaps with the 900 they had the list upside down and built a flimsy under-strength flexible wobbler that wore out too quickly and shook itself to bits. Shortly they'll be inspecting the things so often they'll never take off.
And my unhappiness with only two engines over oceans instead of four has gone up a ratchet or four.
Don't SHOUT at me I'm only SLF. I'm entitled to my worries.
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Hell YES Flapping Madly your views are welcome and valid. What you posted in the vernacular is what most of us are thinking.
TURBINE D
Can you think of the last time a licensed engineer did not tighten up an oil joint properly?
You think his mobile 'phone went off and distracted him? I am REALLY struggling with this excuse.
Seriously...an oil coupling on a unit that already has a history of oil pipe issues?
Look at this flight level...
At 38k feet with one on idle? Light load? Other three on 97% throttle?
TURBINE D
Can you think of the last time a licensed engineer did not tighten up an oil joint properly?
You think his mobile 'phone went off and distracted him? I am REALLY struggling with this excuse.
Seriously...an oil coupling on a unit that already has a history of oil pipe issues?
Look at this flight level...
A Qantas Airbus A380-800, registration VH-OQC performing flight QF-31 from Singapore (Singapore) to London Heathrow,EN (UK), was enroute near Delhi (India) when the crew noticed that the oil quantity of engine #4 (Trent 972, outboard right hand) gradually decreased. The crew continued to London crossing the European Airspace until 125nm eastnortheast of London at FL380 and landed safely on London's runway 09R.
The airplane subsequently remained on the ground in London, the return flight QF-32 was performed by VH-OQG instead. VH-OQC was able to depart for its next flight QF-10 about 18 hours after arrival in London.
The Australian Transportation Safety Board (ATSB) reported that following the landing an engineering inspection revealed "that the fitting of the external HP/IP oil line had less than the required torque". The engine power was reduced to idle at some stage of the cruise for the remainder of the flight.
Radar data show the aircraft passed Moscow (Russia) at FL381 (11600 meters) about 3 hours prior to landing, descended to FL380 upon reaching Latvia and continued until a point 125nm eastnortheast of London at FL380 before beginning the descent into London.
Source: Aviation Herald
Source: Aviation Herald
"The engine power was reduced to idle at some stage of the cruise for the remainder of the flight."
At 38k feet with one on idle? Light load? Other three on 97% throttle?
Last edited by DERG; 18th Feb 2011 at 19:20. Reason: additional
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Insufficient Torque. Fancy that. A 972 with loose bits about. The very same Stub Pipe, then. Someone in Derby is in serious Denial, or worse. Nothing to see here, move along. Please put the KoolAde down. Does any one continue to doubt this powerplant shakes itself to the Danger Zone?
It is a big engine, and carries twenty eight quarts of OIL. Total, per engine.
Time.
The needle and the digital indicator are normally GREEN. When the EEC senses FOUR QUARTS LEFT, the signal on ECAM PULSES.
The largest Three engine Airliner in the world, ever. Sorry 411A. TRITOPS??
It is a big engine, and carries twenty eight quarts of OIL. Total, per engine.
Time.
The needle and the digital indicator are normally GREEN. When the EEC senses FOUR QUARTS LEFT, the signal on ECAM PULSES.
The largest Three engine Airliner in the world, ever. Sorry 411A. TRITOPS??
Last edited by bearfoil; 18th Feb 2011 at 20:41.
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Bear When this hassle began, and Qantas punted the A388 out of Europe toward the Far East, it often returned back to London with some issue or other. They decided to continue to London in this case too.. At first I thought the Aussies were xenophobic, but I just read a comment over on another website that adds up. You know there are not a lot of airports that can handle this size of aircraft. Then what do you do with 470 passengers say in Dnyepetrovsk when the hotels only hold 200?
Then of course there is the $50k plus hotel bill!
Rock On!
Then of course there is the $50k plus hotel bill!
Rock On!
Last edited by DERG; 19th Feb 2011 at 01:33.
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Question
If an engine has a vibration problem, and it is found that
does it necessarily follow that
Just wondering.
"... the fitting of the external HP/IP oil line had less than the required torque ..."
"... a licensed engineer did not tighten up an oil joint properly ..."