QANTAS A380 Uncontained failure.
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Flapping Madly
I think they probably do. Anybody in public business today is interested in what is being said, right or wrong about what they do or make. Years ago my wife had a TV VCR home taping business where she would get requests to tape news shows on 7 different TV stations we received. In times of crisis (like the 900) a business would send a courier to the house at midnight to pick up the tapes from the 11 PM newscasts so the tapes could be taken to the local biz-jet airport to be flown to the business involved for review. Today, if you "Google" almost anything pertaining to the 900, you will run across a PPRuNE post or two. It's the age of instant "IT".
Do the guys at RR and Airbus read it do you think?
Last edited by Turbine D; 20th Feb 2011 at 00:50. Reason: Add Addressee
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Or. Was the Trent 900 that disintegrated just a rogue engine and while other copies may have problems and need close attention they are generally behaving themselves. And as time goes by and operating experience increases this incidence will assume its correct importance in the scheme of things.
By the way, except for the current flying pilots, first officers and flight attendants, we are all SLF!
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The Net allows for instant everything, and choice is the name of the game. It is most important for eliminating the "Puffery" of salesmanship, but also allows nitwits and proctozens to have a say. On the whole, the fact that there is no place to hide any longer for those who would endanger the Public, the venue is a plus. Google has several thousand of arguably the smartest humans on the Planet keeping their engines in Tune. "Imagine That, Fuel that doesn't follow the Rules", etc. "Golly, Friedrich effed up, he needs a stern talking to." The games are over. No longer a quick official guess (Lie), followed by sufficient time to allow the masses to move on. The chip has an eternal memory, and its contents are available in nano seconds. No more Corporate deference to the bottom line, the Bottom is now on the line.
One thing still rings true, and most likely always will. Bury the Dead, Tell the Truth, and Fix the Problem. Those who at one time made a living fooling the Public are now in the soup line. There is a God.
One thing still rings true, and most likely always will. Bury the Dead, Tell the Truth, and Fix the Problem. Those who at one time made a living fooling the Public are now in the soup line. There is a God.
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Sorry, I misunderstood your meaning. This latest incident of the T9 reports the Captain and F/O noticing a trend of Oil loss, and spooling down to (Flight) Idle. A Captain's commanded loss of an engine's power due loss of Oil sounds like a Boeing StratoCruiser, or Connie. An Airbus??
What will they think of next.
Without putting too fine a point on QF32, the outcome was to pull the EEC on engine Drop, and immediately change software. Are you understanding me when I say that the Software was not and is not the Problem?? The Engine has a current service life of six months. The software doesn't extend that, it (hopefully) allows for an auto shutdown in time to save an a/c. It is a Patch on a Hemorrhage. (imo).
What will they think of next.
Without putting too fine a point on QF32, the outcome was to pull the EEC on engine Drop, and immediately change software. Are you understanding me when I say that the Software was not and is not the Problem?? The Engine has a current service life of six months. The software doesn't extend that, it (hopefully) allows for an auto shutdown in time to save an a/c. It is a Patch on a Hemorrhage. (imo).
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The most recent incident, now in "Spotters Corner" wasn't my concern.
All I was trying to say was, that on a 3 or 4, with all engines set up to do the same thing, it is most likely that the EEC data from each will respond with similar trends. So as well as the EEC monitoring each engine, a comparison of trends will provide the first indication that any one data point is moving at a faster rate than the average of the same data points from the remaining engines.
Its not the absolute values we should be interested in, but the rate of change and direction of deviation from the mean - that's the first indication of "trouble up at mill".
All I was trying to say was, that on a 3 or 4, with all engines set up to do the same thing, it is most likely that the EEC data from each will respond with similar trends. So as well as the EEC monitoring each engine, a comparison of trends will provide the first indication that any one data point is moving at a faster rate than the average of the same data points from the remaining engines.
Its not the absolute values we should be interested in, but the rate of change and direction of deviation from the mean - that's the first indication of "trouble up at mill".
Last edited by Jetdriver; 20th Feb 2011 at 16:16.
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BEAR....
"I brought this up on the BA038 thread, relative to fluids Stall at TOGA chat. I also injected it early on in this thread, (Actually the original). The FOHE is a candidate for failure both in cooling/heating capabilities due its position on the Fan Case. Here, the unidentified (though known) Harmonic wreaks its damage in a trail of Wear to all parts in the Core."
Thanks for bringing this back into the thread. This aspect is important, explains the high oil temps. Introduces another set of variables we really could do without.
Time for some R and R. Think you might will like this called the "Nth Degree" and sort of mimics the nature of global aerospace business.
YouTube - Morningwood - Nth Degree
"I brought this up on the BA038 thread, relative to fluids Stall at TOGA chat. I also injected it early on in this thread, (Actually the original). The FOHE is a candidate for failure both in cooling/heating capabilities due its position on the Fan Case. Here, the unidentified (though known) Harmonic wreaks its damage in a trail of Wear to all parts in the Core."
Thanks for bringing this back into the thread. This aspect is important, explains the high oil temps. Introduces another set of variables we really could do without.
Time for some R and R. Think you might will like this called the "Nth Degree" and sort of mimics the nature of global aerospace business.
YouTube - Morningwood - Nth Degree
Last edited by DERG; 20th Feb 2011 at 06:18.
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T1000 is bleedless for a start, which is no problem on the 787 it was designed for, but will clearly be an issue plumbing it into a 380 that is expecting bleed air.
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Having followed this thread religiously ever since the incident, I sometimes wonder whether the RR engineers involved in the investigation/redesign(?) feel the urge to respond to some of the assumptions and assertions posted on Pprune. Are they bound by a vow of silence, or are some of them PM-ing the more qualified members on the forum, and feeding them titbits of information? The absence of public statements from RR regarding the full extent of the problem, and the progress of its resolution, only results in more speculation regarding the future of the Trent and the Company. They, engineers and management, must know this.
Whatever the outcome of the matter, I have learned and understood a great deal about the finer points of gas turbine engine design from some of the more qualified contributors, but I have also detected an increasing tendency by some, to take delight in flagging up the dire potential consequences to RR of a failure to resolve the issues. There are some posts which add nothing to the debate, but serve only to bolster the self-regarding egos of the conspiracy theorists.
My hope is that our fears are unfounded, for the sake of passengers, operators, employees, and the reputation of one of the last remaining UK world-class engineering companies.
Whatever the outcome of the matter, I have learned and understood a great deal about the finer points of gas turbine engine design from some of the more qualified contributors, but I have also detected an increasing tendency by some, to take delight in flagging up the dire potential consequences to RR of a failure to resolve the issues. There are some posts which add nothing to the debate, but serve only to bolster the self-regarding egos of the conspiracy theorists.
My hope is that our fears are unfounded, for the sake of passengers, operators, employees, and the reputation of one of the last remaining UK world-class engineering companies.
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There are some posts which ...... serve only to bolster the self-regarding egos of the conspiracy theorists.
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Hiya FORGET on the nose..hahaha
"My hope is that our fears are unfounded, for the sake of passengers, operators, employees, and the reputation of one of the last remaining UK world-class engineering companies."
Your fears are unfounded. The aircraft and the public is safe. From a commercial view point RR has a bursting order book. This is just a minor technical hitch that was unforseen.
My rant is why it happened. As it turns out the technology we thought we had we actually did not. You can forget the conspiracy stuff. If you want cedibility the only technically qualified contributor here is Turbine D. The rest of us are mainly retired onlookers. So if you read all the posts made by Turbine D and disregard the rest you can be assured of a good understanding.
We were lucky that this event happened as it did with no loss of life. God was with us.
NOTE WELL
I have to add that the logic recorded in the Bayesian paper was more akin to central Europe 1935. This is exactly what happened then. No way will I let that pass.
"My hope is that our fears are unfounded, for the sake of passengers, operators, employees, and the reputation of one of the last remaining UK world-class engineering companies."
Your fears are unfounded. The aircraft and the public is safe. From a commercial view point RR has a bursting order book. This is just a minor technical hitch that was unforseen.
My rant is why it happened. As it turns out the technology we thought we had we actually did not. You can forget the conspiracy stuff. If you want cedibility the only technically qualified contributor here is Turbine D. The rest of us are mainly retired onlookers. So if you read all the posts made by Turbine D and disregard the rest you can be assured of a good understanding.
We were lucky that this event happened as it did with no loss of life. God was with us.
NOTE WELL
I have to add that the logic recorded in the Bayesian paper was more akin to central Europe 1935. This is exactly what happened then. No way will I let that pass.
WETHERKEW
No worries
Nothing is gained by RR responding in any way including feeding info to good or bad shills.
The public generally trusts their regulators and depends on the better press to keep track of major events or rumours in this regard.
Interest pretty much goes with what plays in the press rather than unknown posters on a discussion board. Could be because most of us for good or bad hide our identity
For real concerns there is always a phone call or E-mail to be heard or attended to. The industry does have a way of listening to the right people.
Having followed this thread religiously ever since the incident, I sometimes wonder whether the RR engineers involved in the investigation/redesign(?) feel the urge to respond to some of the assumptions and assertions posted on PPRuNe. Are they bound by a vow of silence, or are some of them PM-ing the more qualified members on the forum, and feeding them titbits of information? The absence of public statements from RR regarding the full extent of the problem, and the progress of its resolution, only results in more speculation regarding the future of the Trent and the Company. They, engineers and management, must know this.
Whatever the outcome of the matter, I have learned and understood a great deal about the finer points of gas turbine engine design from some of the more qualified contributors, but I have also detected an increasing tendency by some, to take delight in flagging up the dire potential consequences to RR of a failure to resolve the issues. There are some posts which add nothing to the debate, but serve only to bolster the self-regarding egos of the conspiracy theorists.
My hope is that our fears are unfounded, for the sake of passengers, operators, employees, and the reputation of one of the last remaining UK world-class engineering companies.
Whatever the outcome of the matter, I have learned and understood a great deal about the finer points of gas turbine engine design from some of the more qualified contributors, but I have also detected an increasing tendency by some, to take delight in flagging up the dire potential consequences to RR of a failure to resolve the issues. There are some posts which add nothing to the debate, but serve only to bolster the self-regarding egos of the conspiracy theorists.
My hope is that our fears are unfounded, for the sake of passengers, operators, employees, and the reputation of one of the last remaining UK world-class engineering companies.
Nothing is gained by RR responding in any way including feeding info to good or bad shills.
The public generally trusts their regulators and depends on the better press to keep track of major events or rumours in this regard.
Interest pretty much goes with what plays in the press rather than unknown posters on a discussion board. Could be because most of us for good or bad hide our identity
For real concerns there is always a phone call or E-mail to be heard or attended to. The industry does have a way of listening to the right people.
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"I suggest cutting down on the sugar."
No longer can we just sit down and have a cup of tea secure in the knowledge that we will get the business anyway. If anything will loose the UKs best engineers it will be the "old boy" network. That much is clear.
No longer can we just sit down and have a cup of tea secure in the knowledge that we will get the business anyway. If anything will loose the UKs best engineers it will be the "old boy" network. That much is clear.
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Whatever.
The sugar comment was a reference to you being all over the place like a 6 year old who have eaten too much sugar, posting nonsensical comments on just about any subject.
A friendly advice if credibility and reputation are of any importance to you, if you will.
The sugar comment was a reference to you being all over the place like a 6 year old who have eaten too much sugar, posting nonsensical comments on just about any subject.
A friendly advice if credibility and reputation are of any importance to you, if you will.
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Extraneosity
I think the editorial comments are best left to the moderators. What a bunch of scolds!!
Factless Scolds, at that. Sounding like an amateurish send up of Parliament.
"Hear hear!!" "Harrumph", "Bad Form!!" etc. Those who can, do. those who cannot, criticize.
Factless Scolds, at that. Sounding like an amateurish send up of Parliament.
"Hear hear!!" "Harrumph", "Bad Form!!" etc. Those who can, do. those who cannot, criticize.
I think the editorial comments are best left to the moderators
Moderators, moderate the politeness of interactions and suitability of topics, but not necessarily the content until/unless it violates forum rules or seriously takes the subject off track.
The opinions, accuracy and relativeness of what one posts are free for dispute and/or discussion, just as you may disagree with what I post now.
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So we are now completely off thread, and for the pursuance of empty rhetoric accusing one another of Various forms of chemical imbalances, and ignorance of the topic. For one, I see from you 10% of what you can contribute to help further the discussion. You are obviously expert, yet you prefer to withold your knowledge and instead complain about the lack of knowledge evident here. When you yourself are on topic, people read, and learn. When you scold, you waste your talents in pursuit of.....???
None of this should be personal, yet look now at me!! If one's prose offends or annoys, move on!! Why waste the time trying to enforce a personal point of view relative to what presents here, warts and all??
None of this should be personal, yet look now at me!! If one's prose offends or annoys, move on!! Why waste the time trying to enforce a personal point of view relative to what presents here, warts and all??
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Isaac Newton
Isaac Newton will wave his invisible hand in the not too distant future, this thread is not done yet. His hand is every bit as good a Adam Smith's. At the moment I am reading all about the business school at INSEAD. This is where a lot of these RR managers get trained. Certain people in a certain condition as Adam said..Smith.
However, the issues raised in the last few posts about the safety of the public need clarifying. Should the A388 encounter an engine problem... here is the performance capability of the machine at the various weights. It is clear from this information that it is a VERY capable machine running on three engines only. My thanks to Trent 972 over on the Oz site.
Derg,
Basic figures @ ISA conditions
@500 Tonnes - 3 Eng max FL300+
@430 Tonnes - 3 Eng max FL350+
@400 Tonnes - 3 Eng max FL360+
@370 Tonnes - 3 Eng max FL380+
The 380 is always comfortable with terrain clearance on 3 engines, even over the Himalayas, no risk bro.
this was posted on Feb 20 2011.
However, the issues raised in the last few posts about the safety of the public need clarifying. Should the A388 encounter an engine problem... here is the performance capability of the machine at the various weights. It is clear from this information that it is a VERY capable machine running on three engines only. My thanks to Trent 972 over on the Oz site.
Derg,
Basic figures @ ISA conditions
@500 Tonnes - 3 Eng max FL300+
@430 Tonnes - 3 Eng max FL350+
@400 Tonnes - 3 Eng max FL360+
@370 Tonnes - 3 Eng max FL380+
The 380 is always comfortable with terrain clearance on 3 engines, even over the Himalayas, no risk bro.
this was posted on Feb 20 2011.
Last edited by DERG; 22nd Feb 2011 at 07:42. Reason: additional