QANTAS A380 Uncontained failure.
I wouldn´t be too sure that within the "Brotherhood of PPRuners" there are not some members that have the right answers at hand.
As I understand the ongoing discussion. Primary goal is safety. As an - important - side effect, we all want to hear from the "officials" what the root cause of that QF 32 desaster was. Well, we can wait.
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Thats' why we have a "Continued Airworthiness" process and the ability for the public to submit meaningful comments to this level of regulation.
So far from what I've read on this board none of the comments submitted so far would overturn this regulatory action.
What design changes RR or its regulators chose to make furthur down the road are theirs to make without public comment.
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Turbine D
Link below to video. The answer to the 150 hour test can be found at the 3.41 mark. Took me 8 seconds on google to find it. (Perhaps it was all done in a sound stage and it's just another conspiracy). I'm still waiting for you to prove that the FAA wasn't happy with the Trent certification as you claimed yesterday. Posting decades old certification requirements
(PART 33—AIRWORTHINESS STANDARDS: AIRCRAFT ENGINES)
doesn't meet the standard of proof to support your claim made in the prior post.
YouTube - Rolls Royce Trent Certification
Link below to video. The answer to the 150 hour test can be found at the 3.41 mark. Took me 8 seconds on google to find it. (Perhaps it was all done in a sound stage and it's just another conspiracy). I'm still waiting for you to prove that the FAA wasn't happy with the Trent certification as you claimed yesterday. Posting decades old certification requirements
(PART 33—AIRWORTHINESS STANDARDS: AIRCRAFT ENGINES)
doesn't meet the standard of proof to support your claim made in the prior post.
It is a unhappy day to have spent $1M or $2M on an engine test to only learn it didn't meet the certification criteria in the FAA's eyes
Last edited by Trent 972; 31st Jan 2011 at 04:40. Reason: Remove clip and leave just the link
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There has been little band width wasted in this thread so far. I am sure the website proprietor is very happy with the numbers of visits this thread has attracted. There are a few of us who have persistently sought answers in this thread with reference to known information. If the Qantas accident had resulted in fatalities I would not be posting here.
Readers will notice this particular group does not discuss airframe and control problems that the Qantas accident involved. The goal here is to educated ourselves. Knowledge is power, as they say.
The A380 and the T900 series engines are very much in the public domain and as the MBAs would say "we are all stakeholders in this enterprise". Some of us in the EUR paid taxes that set up the EADS company. Those like me, in the UK, pay taxes that are redistributed to RR for research and development.
There could well be members of this forum who have personal pecuniary interests in RR....a pension from them or shares in the company. Others might be motivated by pride and are in denial about what happened in this case.
Readers will notice this particular group does not discuss airframe and control problems that the Qantas accident involved. The goal here is to educated ourselves. Knowledge is power, as they say.
The A380 and the T900 series engines are very much in the public domain and as the MBAs would say "we are all stakeholders in this enterprise". Some of us in the EUR paid taxes that set up the EADS company. Those like me, in the UK, pay taxes that are redistributed to RR for research and development.
There could well be members of this forum who have personal pecuniary interests in RR....a pension from them or shares in the company. Others might be motivated by pride and are in denial about what happened in this case.
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In response to Trent 972
Yes that video is informative. The Trent is a series of different engines and this example shown here is not the T900 series.
The argument some of us have is that the Trent 900, in the process of certification, used existing data from the test bed from previous Trent series engines.
As the FAA advisory states: if existing data exists then use it. The problem is that the DATA for the T900 is UNIQUE.
We want ALL the data from the T900 series made public so it can be be examined by the engineering community. WE, the concerned members of the public, want the data from that T972 which exploded.
I have no doubt at all that Rolls Royce has taken steps to make the engines in service safe. In so far as risk to the public is concerned, I believe that it has been minimised as far as possible.
Rolls Royce have a duty of care to the public and I believe they have acted since this accident.
Now as far the suggestion that has been made that RR and the regulating bodies can do as they please, that their business is private, strikes me as somewhat disturbing.
The argument some of us have is that the Trent 900, in the process of certification, used existing data from the test bed from previous Trent series engines.
As the FAA advisory states: if existing data exists then use it. The problem is that the DATA for the T900 is UNIQUE.
We want ALL the data from the T900 series made public so it can be be examined by the engineering community. WE, the concerned members of the public, want the data from that T972 which exploded.
I have no doubt at all that Rolls Royce has taken steps to make the engines in service safe. In so far as risk to the public is concerned, I believe that it has been minimised as far as possible.
Rolls Royce have a duty of care to the public and I believe they have acted since this accident.
Now as far the suggestion that has been made that RR and the regulating bodies can do as they please, that their business is private, strikes me as somewhat disturbing.
Last edited by DERG; 31st Jan 2011 at 07:36. Reason: spellings
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lomapaseo
Well Sir, good job !! Excellent bashing!! But, excuse me, what is the difference of such an entry compared to the cited opinion of "Joe at the street corner" ??
And if you have a problem with my use of the word we in my post, I agree we wipe it and replace that word with an I.
Yes, I take advantage of the "blessings of an outside observer" but yet I am as concerned about safety and the sequence of actions - or non actions - after this frightening engine failure as you seem to be.
It´s the doubts I have in that by you cited "Continued Airworthiness" process and the speed and vigour of necessary corrections to that engine.
Yes, Qantas is flying the A 380 again across the Pacific and - as was stated - using full power. But as far as I am informed that "disgusting" AD about the spline wear is still in force. That must be considered as a hint to the fact that the root cause of the engine problems isn´t resolved.
I agree in what DERG wrote, RR for sure has taken measures to make those operations allowed under the valid AD´s as safe as possible. But future will show wether or not that is enough. I have my doubts.
And if you have a problem with my use of the word we in my post, I agree we wipe it and replace that word with an I.
Yes, I take advantage of the "blessings of an outside observer" but yet I am as concerned about safety and the sequence of actions - or non actions - after this frightening engine failure as you seem to be.
It´s the doubts I have in that by you cited "Continued Airworthiness" process and the speed and vigour of necessary corrections to that engine.
Yes, Qantas is flying the A 380 again across the Pacific and - as was stated - using full power. But as far as I am informed that "disgusting" AD about the spline wear is still in force. That must be considered as a hint to the fact that the root cause of the engine problems isn´t resolved.
I agree in what DERG wrote, RR for sure has taken measures to make those operations allowed under the valid AD´s as safe as possible. But future will show wether or not that is enough. I have my doubts.
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Annex 14
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You have to realise that lomapaseo has a completely different philosophy than the general public. I can see English is not your first language. This poster is no fool as we can see in his post #306. So what motivates this poster to make a statement like:
"So far from what I've read on this board none of the comments submitted so far would overturn this regulatory action." ?
Well I would suggest that this poster is absolutely confident that the FAA and EASA has no power whatsoever in protecting the public from danger.
That the existing cosy relationship between manufacturer and regulator will NOT and MUST NOT be challenged.
Now this very much reminds me of a command economy and if anything has scared me even more than the "novel event" when the T972 exploded.
You will know these attribute well from the pre 1989 days in Europe. Now some might say that is an extreme anology, but others will recognise the political implications, where the State can no longer protect is people from the few.
The few being those "inside" the club. Those outside the "club" are often described by insiders as "self loading freight". Now sooner or later the SLFs get wise to those who have a genuine interest in serving the public and those who are there to abuse the trust given to them by the politicians.
Not unlike the Roman Empire.
You have to realise that lomapaseo has a completely different philosophy than the general public. I can see English is not your first language. This poster is no fool as we can see in his post #306. So what motivates this poster to make a statement like:
"So far from what I've read on this board none of the comments submitted so far would overturn this regulatory action." ?
Well I would suggest that this poster is absolutely confident that the FAA and EASA has no power whatsoever in protecting the public from danger.
That the existing cosy relationship between manufacturer and regulator will NOT and MUST NOT be challenged.
Now this very much reminds me of a command economy and if anything has scared me even more than the "novel event" when the T972 exploded.
You will know these attribute well from the pre 1989 days in Europe. Now some might say that is an extreme anology, but others will recognise the political implications, where the State can no longer protect is people from the few.
The few being those "inside" the club. Those outside the "club" are often described by insiders as "self loading freight". Now sooner or later the SLFs get wise to those who have a genuine interest in serving the public and those who are there to abuse the trust given to them by the politicians.
Not unlike the Roman Empire.
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response
Derg
Thanks for clarifying. You guessed correct, there is a "mother tongue barrier" and even all these years in ATC haven´t overcome some shortcomings.
As far as my answer to lomapaseo is concerned I feel that "one gets what he gives" and I can stand that for my part of the story.
Trent 972
With greatest respect to your experts opinion, your confidence is impressive. May I cite old Mr. Lenin that once stated : Confidence is fine but Control is better!
Not that I want to question your inside view of events, but I am sure you are aware that the "spline eating cause" in those engines you use still needs to be removed. Or is there silently, without information of the public, a "D mod" engine in use ??
Please, don´t feel offended, no hard feelings!! I keep my fingers crossed for you and all of those relying on that technology.
Thanks for clarifying. You guessed correct, there is a "mother tongue barrier" and even all these years in ATC haven´t overcome some shortcomings.
As far as my answer to lomapaseo is concerned I feel that "one gets what he gives" and I can stand that for my part of the story.
Trent 972
With greatest respect to your experts opinion, your confidence is impressive. May I cite old Mr. Lenin that once stated : Confidence is fine but Control is better!
Not that I want to question your inside view of events, but I am sure you are aware that the "spline eating cause" in those engines you use still needs to be removed. Or is there silently, without information of the public, a "D mod" engine in use ??
Please, don´t feel offended, no hard feelings!! I keep my fingers crossed for you and all of those relying on that technology.
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Trent 972
I think you misunderstood what this comment meant, it wasn't a claim the FAA was unhappy. It was a statement in general to explain why the FAA guidance circulars exist in addition to the certification requirements. It is to prevent misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the certification process for certain elements of testing. Should this happen, a significant amount of money could be wasted because of a required "do over". These regulations not only apply to RR, P&WA and GE, who are very familiar with certification requirements, but other engine producers that may not be so familiar. The comment was not directed at the Trent 900 certification as you suggested.
Sorry if I confused you...
I'm still waiting for you to prove that the FAA wasn't happy with the Trent certification as you claimed yesterday.
The circular implies "Here is a way to accomplish vibration testing that is acceptable to us, but there are other way that may be acceptable as well." It is a unhappy day to have spent $1M or $2M on an engine test to only learn it didn't meet the certification criteria in the FAA's eyes.
Sorry if I confused you...
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Federal Leverage
I tell you what Turbine D..if that engine had spewed out over NYC the FBI and NSA would have had that data within 12 hours of the event. I am damn sure the FAA is very happy the Qantas A388 enters and exits over the Pacific Ocean. When it comes to NSA stuff it doesn't matter what admin is in 1600 Penn..they all tow the line.
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...if that engine had spewed out over NYC
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I think, imho, that posting, reposting, and arguing about RR communications people and the relative political aspects of NTSB/ATSB isn't particularly helpful. All of the Public Agencies are political by nature, they rely on the experts for Data and compliance. The PR at RR have a disincentive to divulge proprietary Data to anyone, and if they aren't even aware of this sensitive data, what is the point?
I think the essence of this discussion has to do with Thechnical considerations. To that extent, I relish the give and take here, friend or "foe"; it is a novel and elegant way to gain knowledge without the burden of Semester Tuitions.
I think the essence of this discussion has to do with Thechnical considerations. To that extent, I relish the give and take here, friend or "foe"; it is a novel and elegant way to gain knowledge without the burden of Semester Tuitions.
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Oh Damn Bear
I was going to have a head long fling into the people behind this accident. Who does what in the company etc. If the major directors who perhaps had other interests that might conflict with the interests of RR and the EASA. The politics of international aerospace business. Aims and Objectives..that kind of stuff.
I am particularly interested in the decommissioning of the UK Ministry of Defence and how the people who worked there will take to the new job of saving people rather than killing them. That sort of stuff.
I am particularly interested in the decommissioning of the UK Ministry of Defence and how the people who worked there will take to the new job of saving people rather than killing them. That sort of stuff.
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Turbine D
Ref. your question in post 388 about rollerbearings and sensivity to oilviscosity probably the added link may be of help ?? Not sure, but looked around and found this.
Speeds and vibration - SKF.com / Products / Interactive Engineering Catalogue/Rolling bearings
Speeds and vibration - SKF.com / Products / Interactive Engineering Catalogue/Rolling bearings
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Right Guys a EUREKA moment
Please open up this
http://www.eng.ox.ac.uk/thermofluids...88,11,Existing Seals – current solutions
Now this will take a little time and unless you are a really dedicated
which I have to say I am, then skip the hard bits! The colours and design of this presentation is WONDERFUL so take the time. I must thank David Gillespie and Budimir Rosic from Oxford Uni Dept of Eng Sc.
It starts where is says THE BIG PICTURE
Go to THE SEALING CHALLENGE part
See the three cross sections of the shaft...with you mouse click on them...you see how the shape changes..that is why we have the spline wear and are losing the oil.
OK So how to fix!
See EXISTING SEALS
Now see THE NEXT GENERATION OF SEALS
EUREKA! That is the fix RR has done to the T900s..latest seal design.
WHOOPEEE!
All we have to do now is solve the excessive spline wear!
This is the patent detail of this seal:
Leaf seal, in particular for a gas turbine
http://www.eng.ox.ac.uk/thermofluids...88,11,Existing Seals – current solutions
Now this will take a little time and unless you are a really dedicated
which I have to say I am, then skip the hard bits! The colours and design of this presentation is WONDERFUL so take the time. I must thank David Gillespie and Budimir Rosic from Oxford Uni Dept of Eng Sc. It starts where is says THE BIG PICTURE
Go to THE SEALING CHALLENGE part
See the three cross sections of the shaft...with you mouse click on them...you see how the shape changes..that is why we have the spline wear and are losing the oil.
OK So how to fix!
See EXISTING SEALS
Now see THE NEXT GENERATION OF SEALS
EUREKA! That is the fix RR has done to the T900s..latest seal design.
WHOOPEEE!
All we have to do now is solve the excessive spline wear!
This is the patent detail of this seal:
Leaf seal, in particular for a gas turbine
Last edited by DERG; 1st Feb 2011 at 10:34. Reason: link to patent document
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Bearing Suppliers
From this we know that SKF, wunnerful bearings by the way, do NOT make the baearings for the 900.
SKF to supply main bearings for the new Trent 1000 engine from Rolls-Royce - SKF.com/Welcome to the news & events portal/News archive
this is unusual. It means the bearings are specials. The hunt goes on.
SKF to supply main bearings for the new Trent 1000 engine from Rolls-Royce - SKF.com/Welcome to the news & events portal/News archive
this is unusual. It means the bearings are specials. The hunt goes on.
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Who makes 'em
FAG supplies all engine bearing supports and numerous components for the Rolls Royce “Trent 900” engines for the world’s largest passenger aircraft."
http://www.schaeffler.com/content.sc...se_3343488.pdf
"It is testament to FAG’s expertise and
experience within the aerospace industry
that we were chosen over other
manufacturers to supply all of the main
shaft bearings and components for this
prestigious aircraft’s engine."
In this document there is also a VERY interesting report on fake bearings. We all need to read this.
http://www.schaeffler.com/remotemedi...5_03_gb_gb.pdf
http://www.schaeffler.com/content.sc...se_3343488.pdf
"It is testament to FAG’s expertise and
experience within the aerospace industry
that we were chosen over other
manufacturers to supply all of the main
shaft bearings and components for this
prestigious aircraft’s engine."
In this document there is also a VERY interesting report on fake bearings. We all need to read this.
http://www.schaeffler.com/remotemedi...5_03_gb_gb.pdf
Last edited by DERG; 1st Feb 2011 at 11:20. Reason: additional