Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log
Reload this Page >

First Officer Limitations

Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

First Officer Limitations

Old 6th Dec 2009, 18:36
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: EGSS
Posts: 53
Question First Officer Limitations

Dear All,

I have been looking for this info on PPRuNe and managed to scrape a few
facts together, although I have not found a hell of a lot. However, I would
be interested in some more extensive information on F/O operating limitations
in various airlines.

As a First Officer in your airline (feel free to state the airline) what are the
limitations on;

- operating as Pilot Flying in Low Vis conditions (take-off/approach/landing)?

- calling for and executing a Rejected Take-off?

- landing/take-off in adverse weather conditions, eg. x-wind/contaminated
runways/wind shear/etc?

- challenging/demanding approaches like circling approaches/Cat C airfields?

- taxiing the aircraft?

- signing the Tech log?

This thread is purely meant out of interest to hear about different policies at
different airlines. I not trying to provoke a discussion about what is right and
what is wrong and which policy is the best.

Thanks people.

The Doc.
Dr Esteban is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2009, 19:07
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,131
As a First Officer in your airline (feel free to state the airline) what are the
limitations on;

- operating as Pilot Flying in Low Vis conditions (take-off/approach/landing)?

OK Cat I; Capt all Cat II/III.


- calling for and executing a Rejected Take-off?

Call light/irregularity only; Captain decides/executes.


- landing/take-off in adverse weather conditions, eg. x-wind/contaminated
runways/wind shear/etc?

No additional limitations.


- challenging/demanding approaches like circling approaches/Cat C airfields?

No circling.


- taxiing the aircraft?

Yes


- signing the Tech log?

No
Intruder is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2009, 21:37
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,575
Lets see....

Low vis...allowed, even CATII/III.

Rejected takeoff...Captain ONLY.

Landing on contaminated runways/windshear...Captain normally allows, no company restrictions.

Circling (we are category D), yes, the First Officers do it all the time where we fly. Standard ops.

Taxiing?
No, no tiller on their side.

Signing the tech log?
Nope, not allowed. Captain ONLY.
411A is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2009, 21:54
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: away from home
Age: 59
Posts: 710
- operating as Pilot Flying in Low Vis conditions (take-off/approach/landing)?
CAPT is PF in Low vis.

- calling for and executing a Rejected Take-off?
CAPT decision and execution

- landing/take-off in adverse weather conditions, eg. x-wind/contaminated
runways/wind shear/etc?
CAPT decision

- challenging/demanding approaches like circling approaches/Cat C airfields?
C-Airport landings CAPT only, otherwise CAPT decision

- taxiing the aircraft?
CAPT (no tiller r/h side anyway)

- signing the Tech log?
CAPT.
oceancrosser is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2009, 23:24
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 3,979
- operating as Pilot Flying in Low Vis conditions (take-off/approach/landing)?

CPT for landing, take off down to 400m RVR permissible for both, below that CPT only.

- calling for and executing a Rejected Take-off?

CPT, FO calls conditions

- landing/take-off in adverse weather conditions, eg. x-wind/contaminated
runways/wind shear/etc?

No limits, however the PIC allway can decide to take it for himself.

- challenging/demanding approaches like circling approaches/Cat C airfields?

Depends, quite a lot more airfields are CPT only than in my previous airline (which was a subsidiary but had more experienced FOs). However no global ban on Cat C airfields, circlings are normal procedure and both can do it.

- taxiing the aircraft?

CPT, no tiller on the right side.

- signing the Tech log?

CPT only.
Denti is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2009, 09:22
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: sh!# hole
Posts: 175
EK Ops:

F/O take off:
20kts X/W,
RVR 500M
No operations on contaminated R/W
Reject, Capt only

F/O landing:
CAT I minimas
20kts X/W
No operations on contaminated R/W

F/O can taxi the A/C and park provided no paralex (LHS) alignment
Windshear conditions: YES

Tech Log: Capt
Circling: YES

Capt only at B* airports.

Regards,

Oz
oz in dxb is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2009, 10:59
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: AMS
Posts: 18
At my company (B747) the following rules for f/o's:

-Rejecting the t/o due to specific failures/warnings is allowed
-No Cat II/III approaches
-After first type conversion 15kts max x-wind during the first year.

(Other types have different rules, B777 f/o's are not allowed to reject the t/o, but are allowed cat II/III approaches, IIRC).
Mac74 is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2009, 22:15
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Here, there, everywhere
Posts: 251
As a First Officer in your airline (feel free to state the airline) what are the
limitations on;

- operating as Pilot Flying in Low Vis conditions (take-off/approach/landing)?

As an FO I can fly down to CAT I minima, and take-off with 400m RVR. Capt only landing for CAT II/III, and take-off down to 125m RVR.

- calling for and executing a Rejected Take-off?
As handling pilot, I can call AND action the stop for anything up to 80kts, after 80kts, only major malfunctions or 'red' warnings - anything else and I have to query the capt for a decision. The stopping action is still mine. Once <60kts, control goes to the capt to turn us into wind.

landing/take-off in adverse weather conditions, eg. x-wind/contaminated
runways/wind shear/etc?

As a new FO on type (first six months) we operate with 'half limits', head, tail and x-wind. After this restriction is lifted we operate to aircraft limits, as do the capt's. Contaminated runways are capt only (and best avoided!). Windshear is a compulsory go around, for either pilot.

- challenging/demanding approaches like circling approaches/Cat C airfields?
Circling approaches are not terribly demanding. We tend to select PF for the leg based on which side of the flight deck you need to fly the 'visual' finals from.
CAT C, or especially demanding approaches are captain only landings - however, we have provisions for a monitored approach in the SOP's and this tends to be the norm for these so; FO flies the approach, Capt takes control for landing OR decides on a go-around which is then flown by FO.

- taxiing the aircraft?
Capt only with my airline, we only have a single tiller on the capt side.

- signing the Tech log?
Capt only, although can be completed by FO.
Love_joy is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2009, 10:05
  #9 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: EGSS
Posts: 53
Thanks for all the replies!

Interesting to see the differences in policy with the various airlines.

@ Love_joy: When referring to windshear I meant take-off/landing at an
airport where windshear is reported not an actual windshear warning in
the flightdeck, that must be a compulsory go-around at most airlines.

Looking at the above examples do you guys and gals think a flightdeck
should be operated man-boy or should it be more equal nowadays?
Dr Esteban is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2009, 10:31
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: any town as retired.
Posts: 2,154
Left or right seat

Which company has policy of FO handling from left seat, and if so under what conditions.

In regard to Man / Boy / Dog... this is a totally different can of worms...

glf
Gulfstreamaviator is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2009, 16:00
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 1,921
I am amazed by the restrictive development opportunities for First Officers as indicated above.
From my experience with one operator, First Officer participation was permitted in all operations at the Captain’s discretion. This recognised both the range of differing abilities of the First Officers and those of the Captains in performing ‘instructional’ duties short of formal training. I add that it was a small operation where knowledge of crew’s ability was known and tracked.

Our industry allows and depends on in-service training. The formal or more extreme situations are usually trained with an instructor (no pax) or in a simulator, but the extensive range of ‘normal’ operations that all pilots should be exposed to in order to develop their expertise and skills (to become a Captain) must come from everyday operations, e.g. crosswinds, low visibility, circling, difficult airports.
If we don’t allow First Officers to experience this wide range of situations and the multitude of decision options and skills required within them, then how can the industry expect improve expertise and professionalism.
Perhaps we are already seeing the effects of this policy where crews depend on automation or have difficulty in managing the unusual or in some cases not so unusual situations.

There is an interesting view of operations (which I support) in ‘Eliminating "cockpit-caused" accidents’.
Perhaps the industry should consider these aspects so that we don’t run out of suitably experienced Captains.
If not, then either we have to understand how experience may the gained / taught without being exposed to situations, or perhaps the industry needs to change the premises of a two crew operation, interaction with automation, and a First Officer’s capability for intervention / recovery in extreme situations.
safetypee is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2009, 16:25
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,691
As a First Officer in your airline (feel free to state the airline) what are the
limitations on;

- operating as Pilot Flying in Low Vis conditions (take-off/approach/landing)?

FO to Cat 1 limits only.

- calling for and executing a Rejected Take-off?

FO may call and and execute for specified conditions/failures.

- landing/take-off in adverse weather conditions, eg. x-wind/contaminated
runways/wind shear/etc?


FO's limited to two third of aircraft x-wind limits, but no further restrictions.


- challenging/demanding approaches like circling approaches/Cat C airfields?

Captains landings only at Cat C airfields, no restrictions on circling.

FOs can taxi the aircraft but only captains may sign the Tech Log.
Carnage Matey! is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2009, 18:43
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Here, there, everywhere
Posts: 251
@ Love_joy: When referring to windshear I meant take-off/landing at an
airport where windshear is reported not an actual windshear warning in
the flightdeck, that must be a compulsory go-around at most airlines.
Why depart at all if Wind Shear is being reported??

Interestingly, my current type does not have an automated windshear alerting system. The previous did.

FO permitted to fly the approach, even if WS being reported.
Love_joy is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2009, 07:23
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: in limbo
Age: 36
Posts: 10
As a First Officer in your airline (feel free to state the airline) what are the
limitations on;

- operating as Pilot Flying in Low Vis conditions (take-off/approach/landing)?

Capt Only for cat II/III

- calling for and executing a Rejected Take-off?

Either can call, f/o can initiate (cancel power, select reverse) but Capt MUST take control.

- landing/take-off in adverse weather conditions, eg. x-wind/contaminated
runways/wind shear/etc?


FO's limited to 10 knots xwind component, capt only for windshear and contaminated runways and for any destinations nominated capt only in ops manual)


- challenging/demanding approaches like circling approaches/Cat C airfields?

F/os can circle, and do so quite well!

no tiller on P2 side, but Capt only as policy
Capt signs techlog and all other legal docs.
mrwebs is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2009, 11:52
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Europe
Posts: 82
- operating as Pilot Flying in Low Vis conditions (take-off/approach/landing)?
Cat I and Nonprecision: F/O flying and landing, could be also a monitored approach where F/O flies and Capt lands
Cat II: F/O flying, Capt lands if conditiones are met at minimum, otherwise if Capt is NOT calling my controls, the F/O executes the Goaround
Cat III: Capt only (Aircraft is equipped with HUGS on left side only, Cat III APPR are handflown with HUGS, no autoland)

- calling for and executing a Rejected Take-off?
Takeoff is always performed by PF but thrust-levers handled only by the Capt. F/O shall call out any abnormal situation, Capt decision. If the takeoff has to be aborted, this is an automated handoff to the Capt

- landing/take-off in adverse weather conditions, eg. x-wind/contaminated
runways/wind shear/etc?
F/O may fly the whole envelope of the A/C limitation, no restrictions, however Capt decision as always.
(As lowtime and young F/O I flew sometimes with great Captains who liked to hand over the A/C to me and let me fly something a bit more challenging approaches, helping out if needed or giving positive verbal inputs. Thats the way to become Capt later on and it's the same what I liked to do with younger F/O's to get them the most out of every flight. The best boost of convidence for any young F/O was the day I left the cockpit for a short trip to the restroom. Always big grin when I came back....)

- challenging/demanding approaches like circling approaches/Cat C airfields?
Some airports restricted to be flown by Capt. Otherwise many F/O's fly circlings just perfect and anybody else will get better by doing it.

- taxiing the aircraft?
Tiller only on Capt side only, however as the A/C can be steered to a certain angle by the pedals, the F/O CAN technically taxi on a somehow straight taxiway (not an official procedure but as well not forbidden....)

- signing the Tech log?
PF for the next leg does the walk around, checks the logs, makes entries but must be signed by Capt.
Takeoff53 is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2009, 12:01
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Up front
Posts: 144
Below 500 feet ceiling and 2000m vis as well as all non procedural approaches a monitored approach is carried out ie: co-pilot fly`s the a/c heads down whilst the boss is looking for the runway - once runway in sight boss takes over and lands.

Low visibilty take-offs Capts only.

No crosswind limits, taxi leg for leg.

Challenging Airports..Leg for leg.

1st Officers and 2nd Officers sign for gas, Boss signs loadsheet flight reports and for beer....sometimes.
groundfloor is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2009, 13:23
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Dimension X
Posts: 364
At my airline it's a joke. Talking on the radio is about all F/Os can do. And this is a large South American airline.
varigflier is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2009, 15:17
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: "como todo buen piloto... mujeriego y borracho"
Posts: 2,005
As a First Officer at Gulf Air the limitations on;

- operating as Pilot Flying in Low Vis conditions (take-off/approach/landing)?
Unless the Captain is incapacitated or is a TRI or TRE, any takeoff or landing with a cloud base below 500' AGL and/or Vis less than 1500m is Captain only takeoff/landing.

- calling for and executing a Rejected Take-off?
Captain only.

- landing/take-off in adverse weather conditions, eg. x-wind/contaminated
runways/wind shear/etc?
Unless the Captain is incapacitated or is a TRI or TRE, surface Cross-wind component shall not exceed 15 knots. Runway shall not be contaminated. There is no published restriction on FO's conducting approaches where windshear has been reported.

- challenging/demanding approaches like circling approaches/Cat C airfields?
Our previous edition of the Operations Manual had a restriction on FO's conducting takeoffs and landings at Cat C airfields. This verbage is now absent, with the exception of one airfield briefing (Kathmandu) where the Captain must conduct the takeoff or landing (unless, incapacitated, of course). Having said that I expect that most Captains still apply the previous interpretation.

- taxiing the aircraft?
No, unless Captain is incapacitated.

- signing the Tech log?
Not the Tech Log, but the First Officer signs the Aircraft Cabin Log.
Panama Jack is offline  
Old 11th Dec 2009, 16:40
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Europe
Posts: 82
@Varigflier

Your post
At my airline it's a joke. Talking on the radio is about all F/Os can do. And this is a large South American airline
is not showing great confidence into the F/O's. But this is mostly not a problem produced by the F/O's, it's just poor training and a airline philosophy from the ice age. However, I assume you have been checked for the whole program in the sim?
How shall the F/O take care of the ship if the old guy gets incapacitated? This is one of the tasks an F/O has positively to perfom during line intro, otherwise no line check (company standart, not only my opinion)
(I remember a F/O during line intro, who immediately took the mike to declare an emergency after I explained him, that we will now simulate my incapacitation and he has to bring the a/c back home alone. A split second after my first little shock I realised, that he had just before silently switched the radio to a blind freq. LOL together and he did a brilliant job during the rest of the game)
Takeoff53 is offline  
Old 12th Dec 2009, 21:50
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: taking up the hold
Age: 49
Posts: 782
UK A320 operator

- operating as Pilot Flying in Low Vis conditions (take-off/approach/landing)?

Take-off:
only captains have been sim trained to carry out take-offs in 125m RVR so SFO minima = applicable minima or 150m whichever greater, FOs = double that

Landing:
Only Captains complete Autoland training as PF. SFO = applicable minima. FOs should not fly the approach when close to minima but how close not specified.


- calling for and executing a Rejected Take-off?

Captain holds Thrust Levers on all take-offs & makes all decisions to stop.


- landing/take-off in adverse weather conditions, eg. x-wind/contaminated
runways/wind shear/etc?

SFO AFM limits
FO 2/3 X AFM limit


- challenging/demanding approaches like circling approaches/Cat C airfields?

Where weather is a factor Captains & SFOs only.


- taxiing the aircraft?

FOs & SFOs can taxi but Captain must park the aircraft.


- signing the Tech log?

FO/SFOs can sign for fuel, oil & hydraulic levels as well aspre-flight inspection.
Not surprisingly the captain must sign the captains acceptance & post flight certification.
Tail-take-off is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.