Revised Bristol/Cardiff airspace/SIDs/STARs
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Welcome the SID's, but for us A321's descent from the east for R/W27 the dive is now even more of a struggle. I was thinking that it was my ineptitude but talking to the other pilots they are of the same opinion. We are certainly achieving CDA's but thats with the speedbrake out and then having to slow right down (200kts) to get at least half of the flap out..so we can least having a minor chance of hitting the G/S from below (and that with a headwind). We still seem to be handed over from London high although not as bad as the past. The next block and difficulty is being held at 5000, presumably because of new airspace procedure, this is where we have to slow right down to make the ILS.
So have pity when a 321 comes on to the screen, we are struggling and if the wind is calm or tail we are sweating!
So have pity when a 321 comes on to the screen, we are struggling and if the wind is calm or tail we are sweating!
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Hi "simride". Interesting comments indeed. That's the great thing about these posts - we learn from each other. Useful stuff for me. Have a look at a chart showing the new airspace (half-mil topo #32A will do or UK AIP Bristol CTR/CTA chart AD2-EGGD-4-1 which is a bit clearer) and you'll see the issue for us: we can only drop you to 500 feet above the declared base, because of what may be flying around under controlled airspace: hence you get descent to FL120 from LACC S23 after CPT (standing agreement), then we can drop you to FL80 15nm before POMAX, if we get you in time (base of L9 is FL75 after MALBY). We then have to ensure you stay out of the Lyneham CTA (top FL65) on the drop to 5000 feet towards Colerne, then 4000 over Bath and 2500 feet for the last bit before the ILS. Does the descent profile not work okay for a CDA mostly? We're also trying to give track miles to touchdown now to assist you and also to antcipate continuous descent profiles to keep you going down but staying within controlled airspace.
You have an option(s) of course: tell us you want more track miles and we'll do something creative, possibly a heading towards Filton and then a "proper" right base turn onto 27 from the north, dropping to 2500 feet. Otherwise, towards the BRI and through the centreline for a left hand cct. You're flying the aeroplane and are responsible for its safe operation, ultimately: We don't want to make it hard for you guys, believe me. Please don't keep schtumm on the RT but then whinge to each other on the flight-deck about **** ATC: Just let us know in as good time as you can. Hurried or potentially unstable approaches aren't what we want, any more than you do, 'cos it just increases the risk of a go-round (or worse). Might be worth getting some official feedback to us via KA if it's a regular prob.? As an aside, I remember having a similar conversation about "big,slippery aeroplanes which are hard to slow down" with an RAE Comet captain in 1977...then an MD80 capt. in 1987...things don't change.
You have an option(s) of course: tell us you want more track miles and we'll do something creative, possibly a heading towards Filton and then a "proper" right base turn onto 27 from the north, dropping to 2500 feet. Otherwise, towards the BRI and through the centreline for a left hand cct. You're flying the aeroplane and are responsible for its safe operation, ultimately: We don't want to make it hard for you guys, believe me. Please don't keep schtumm on the RT but then whinge to each other on the flight-deck about **** ATC: Just let us know in as good time as you can. Hurried or potentially unstable approaches aren't what we want, any more than you do, 'cos it just increases the risk of a go-round (or worse). Might be worth getting some official feedback to us via KA if it's a regular prob.? As an aside, I remember having a similar conversation about "big,slippery aeroplanes which are hard to slow down" with an RAE Comet captain in 1977...then an MD80 capt. in 1987...things don't change.
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Thanks ATCOJ30 for the response and general info, I am also finding this a very beneficial thread learning a lot. We can also achieve CDA's but its also a struggle at times, often high on profile struggling to get down.
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Cheers
The Analog Kid
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Bath Gap situation now? Great! No longer am I having to constantly scan the screen to see what's likely to conflict with you guys in the open FIR and (frequently) have the difficult choice of where to turn you for avoiding action to ensure the biggest "gap" (or just any gap) from other traffic. It's totally changed the way we operate and has increased my thinking-, speaking- and scanning capacity enormously. That said, we have made significant airspace sharing concessions to the gliding- and paragliding folk (amongst others) and have agreements in place which let them have access to the Bath Gap CTA up to 4500 feet and over the Mendips up to 5000 feet on good-gliding-weather days, non-radio. We've simulated it plenty but have yet to work it for real on a regular basis.
I'll have the Crib Sheet, that we ran past you guys this afternoon, on our website tomorrow and we'll be publicising it throughout the free flying community.
Cheers,
Rich.
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Well, I'm offering a new free service - Badim Tours. Yes folks, at no extra cost, you can fly all the way to Badim to see that wonderful, umm, err, reporting point, and you don't even need to tip the ATCO for the excellent level of service!
Seriously though, 23 want you on the south side of Y3 999 times out of 1000, so when you turn onto the easterly heading of the Badim Sid, it's easier to get you to fly that heading, it can (most of the time) reduce our workload and enable us to provide a better overall service to everyone.
wotans simride I'm glad you brought up the point regarding 321's getting straight in on 27 from the east. I took advice, long before the airspace change, from an old friend of mine who flies 321's and he told me it would be a problem flying a normal, stable approach unless the a/c was level at FL80 at Pomax and even then, it would be a bit of a struggle with a tailwind and the stepdowns due to new airspace base levels. This was passed on to several of our management and I have advocated the 'BRI-downwind left' route many times because of this. Unfortunately, some of our management all but told me I was talking through my ****, so it's nice to know that I and my mate were right. I should print this out and post it in the WM's office! Incidentally, if I'm going to put you toward the BRI and then downwind, I always let you know early so you can plan for it, and I have also got my current radar trainee into the same habit.
But here's one to throw back at you piloty people.......when you are coming in from the east, many of us will say "descend FL80, leave Pomax heading 250/240 etc" (this keeps you just inside CAS and puts you on a closing heading straight away), but I have noticed several times with 319's and E145's, that you miss Pomax by 3-4 miles to the south and go on to the heading which then takes you outside of CAS. Now to my question, is Pomax that hard for the compooter to find, or do you guys just hanker after the good old days of short notice avoiding action?
Seriously though, 23 want you on the south side of Y3 999 times out of 1000, so when you turn onto the easterly heading of the Badim Sid, it's easier to get you to fly that heading, it can (most of the time) reduce our workload and enable us to provide a better overall service to everyone.
wotans simride I'm glad you brought up the point regarding 321's getting straight in on 27 from the east. I took advice, long before the airspace change, from an old friend of mine who flies 321's and he told me it would be a problem flying a normal, stable approach unless the a/c was level at FL80 at Pomax and even then, it would be a bit of a struggle with a tailwind and the stepdowns due to new airspace base levels. This was passed on to several of our management and I have advocated the 'BRI-downwind left' route many times because of this. Unfortunately, some of our management all but told me I was talking through my ****, so it's nice to know that I and my mate were right. I should print this out and post it in the WM's office! Incidentally, if I'm going to put you toward the BRI and then downwind, I always let you know early so you can plan for it, and I have also got my current radar trainee into the same habit.
But here's one to throw back at you piloty people.......when you are coming in from the east, many of us will say "descend FL80, leave Pomax heading 250/240 etc" (this keeps you just inside CAS and puts you on a closing heading straight away), but I have noticed several times with 319's and E145's, that you miss Pomax by 3-4 miles to the south and go on to the heading which then takes you outside of CAS. Now to my question, is Pomax that hard for the compooter to find, or do you guys just hanker after the good old days of short notice avoiding action?
Last edited by Standard Noise; 9th Oct 2006 at 10:03. Reason: Edited to enable me to annoy more people with one post!!!
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when you are coming in from the east, many of us will say "descend FL80, leave Pomax heading 250/240 etc" (this keeps you just inside CAS and puts you on a closing heading straight away), but I have noticed several times with 319's and E145's, that you miss Pomax by 3-4 miles to the south and go on to the heading which then takes you outside of CAS. Now to my question, is Pomax that hard for the compooter to find, or do you guys just hanker after the good old days of short notice avoiding action?
Net result, the turn begins just before POMAX - because the FMC was planning to make a standard rate bank and roll out level 'direct BRI' on the opposite side of POMAX. Normal practice, I thought, for FMCs to cut corners, unless the turning RNAV waypoint is explicitly marked as 'overfly', instead of 'flyby' (in which case, it would cross directly overhead POMAX and then begin the turn).
I may well be utterly wrong and am not ashamed to accept that (because I don't fly 'buses, at least not in 'RL'), but perhaps an EZY or BACon pilot can elaborate? If it is this situation, then perhaps SOPs need to be reviewed, in light of the closeness of the edge of CAS here?
I can confirm your thoughts Rev Thrust, on the 145 the FMS does indeed turn the aircraft just before reaching Pomax and subsequently cuts the corner a little bit, max 2 miles I would say. Have to say that fingertrouble has caused earlier turns too...
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Thanks Rev Thrust, that prolly explains it. Machines eh, you just can't trust 'em!
The only thing I will do from now on then, is tell the pilot they are heading OCAS because they let the machine turn too early, and poke 'em back in the bag again. Oh, and we've been advised to offer only a FIS should an a/c stray outside our nice new shiny CTA if it's not of our making. That'll make them sit up and take notice.
The only thing I will do from now on then, is tell the pilot they are heading OCAS because they let the machine turn too early, and poke 'em back in the bag again. Oh, and we've been advised to offer only a FIS should an a/c stray outside our nice new shiny CTA if it's not of our making. That'll make them sit up and take notice.
StandupfortheUlstermen
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No more Mr Nice Guy, otherwise known as ' I have given the pilot a route, should he or his aircraft deviate from that route, I will not risk my licence to help out unless he utters the line 'oh, I'm just WX avoiding.'
I'm starting to feel NATS running through my veins and it's only been 11 months.
We've been given the airspace and must use it, taking a/c outside into the Twilight Zone is no longer acceptable. Should a pilot/aircraft stray outside of his/its own accord, we no longer feel obliged to utter the words ' leaving Controlled Airspace, Radar Advisory Service'.
I'm starting to feel NATS running through my veins and it's only been 11 months.
We've been given the airspace and must use it, taking a/c outside into the Twilight Zone is no longer acceptable. Should a pilot/aircraft stray outside of his/its own accord, we no longer feel obliged to utter the words ' leaving Controlled Airspace, Radar Advisory Service'.
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But here's one to throw back at you piloty people.......when you are coming in from the east, many of us will say "descend FL80, leave Pomax heading 250/240 etc" (this keeps you just inside CAS and puts you on a closing heading straight away), but I have noticed several times with 319's and E145's, that you miss Pomax by 3-4 miles to the south and go on to the heading which then takes you outside of CAS. Now to my question, is Pomax that hard for the compooter to find, or do you guys just hanker after the good old days of short notice avoiding action?
Firstly, they misheard (and in which case probably gave an incorrect readback) the instruction and took up the heading straight away. Unlikely, as you'd imagine the incorrect readback would be picked up, but possible.
Secondly, the co-ordinates of POMAX are wrong on the database. Also unlikely, but can be checked.
Airbus FMGS would not cut a corner like that if turning onto a heading, as usually you'll leave a discontinuity after POMAX to do that. And even if flying the route CPT-POMAX-CF27 (which 99% of the BRS crew have in the flight plan) there really isn't much of a corner to cut.
Cheers
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I've certainly never seen POMAX missed by that kinda margin in the given scenario.
Firstly, they misheard (and in which case probably gave an incorrect readback) the instruction and took up the heading straight away.
Secondly, the co-ordinates of POMAX are wrong on the database. Also unlikely, but can be checked.
Airbus FMGS would not cut a corner like that if turning onto a heading, as usually you'll leave a discontinuity after POMAX to do that. And even if flying the route CPT-POMAX-CF27 (which 99% of the BRS crew have in the flight plan) there really isn't much of a corner to cut.
Cheers
Firstly, they misheard (and in which case probably gave an incorrect readback) the instruction and took up the heading straight away.
Secondly, the co-ordinates of POMAX are wrong on the database. Also unlikely, but can be checked.
Airbus FMGS would not cut a corner like that if turning onto a heading, as usually you'll leave a discontinuity after POMAX to do that. And even if flying the route CPT-POMAX-CF27 (which 99% of the BRS crew have in the flight plan) there really isn't much of a corner to cut.
Cheers
On neither occasion was there an incorrect readback which got missed but maybe the pilots misunderstood the instruction rather than misheard it.
As for the POM coordinates being wrong on the database, I wouldn't know. But I agree that in most cases, it isn't much of a corner to cut, however, the corner in question is important in keeping folks inside CAS, which is exactly the point of the whole thing in the first place.
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Standard
The -145 always turns in early unless the waypoint is marked up as a 'flyover'. POMAX is not labelled as a F/O in the box so unless a pilot actually marks it as a f/o on the flight plan it will turn in early.
The reason for this is simple. the a/c follows the track line into a waypoint correctly. It wishes to leave the waypoint on the correct track line also. As it can't turn on a point, it leads the waypoint turn to avoid 'going through' the outgoing track line. More degrees of turn= earlier commencement of turn. 3 or 4 miles is entirely typical for any en route turn.
Suggestion. During the work on 'G' why not shut Foggy Bottom and let us all fly out of Bristols proper airport?
The -145 always turns in early unless the waypoint is marked up as a 'flyover'. POMAX is not labelled as a F/O in the box so unless a pilot actually marks it as a f/o on the flight plan it will turn in early.
The reason for this is simple. the a/c follows the track line into a waypoint correctly. It wishes to leave the waypoint on the correct track line also. As it can't turn on a point, it leads the waypoint turn to avoid 'going through' the outgoing track line. More degrees of turn= earlier commencement of turn. 3 or 4 miles is entirely typical for any en route turn.
Suggestion. During the work on 'G' why not shut Foggy Bottom and let us all fly out of Bristols proper airport?
StandupfortheUlstermen
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The fly-over/fly-by waypoint thing isn't new - it's been highighted within ATC circles for ages now. I just needed a kick to make me remember it as an issue and will NOT be giving 240/245 off POMAX so readily in future - maybe 260/265 and have a look. For us, it's this issue of you straying outside the CTA that's a worry, as my learned colleague (Standard Noise) so rightly points out, especially as Lyneham's airspace is directly south of POMAX, up to FL65. After all, we're supposed to ensure you stay at least 2nm inside the CAS boundary at all times.
When I get back on the 21st, I'll collate the useful pilot responses and put them out to our team. Thanks muchly, guys, for your input - it really does help the flow of info and will (hopefully) address some of the problems you've raised. Maybe you'll see the proof of this when we ask you some pertinent Qs about your (in)ability to get the height and speed off for 27 and making mention earlier of the routeing towards the BRI and left hand for 27. Like I said, we want stable approaches as much as you do. The power of PPRUNE eh? Wonderful.
Nice that BF still can't resist a pop at BRS though. And there was me thinking it was such a popular crew-base...
When I get back on the 21st, I'll collate the useful pilot responses and put them out to our team. Thanks muchly, guys, for your input - it really does help the flow of info and will (hopefully) address some of the problems you've raised. Maybe you'll see the proof of this when we ask you some pertinent Qs about your (in)ability to get the height and speed off for 27 and making mention earlier of the routeing towards the BRI and left hand for 27. Like I said, we want stable approaches as much as you do. The power of PPRUNE eh? Wonderful.
Nice that BF still can't resist a pop at BRS though. And there was me thinking it was such a popular crew-base...
StandupfortheUlstermen
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mmm, I think I might go one step further than J30 and cease using 'leave POM hdg....' unless a change occurs with this flyover/waypoint thingy and I'll just have to use vectors with certain a/c types. Shame, cos it would make it easier to use a heading off POM.