Training of low hour pilots in airlines
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Global
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Training of low hour pilots in airlines
A question for all Line and Training Captains with regard to low time and cadet type pilots.
I am now a training captain myself operating in a multi crew transport category aircraft.
Previously all the ‘training’ I had done was with experienced crews ie: FO’s upgrading to command or new hires that were experienced (thousand hour plus).
Now I (we) find ourselves flying with cadets with fresh licences, how fresh you ask? Lets say sub 300 hours.
Myself and other line captains have found our own jobs have become exponentially more difficult in having to fly and watch the fng like a hawk. Essentially we are now flying in some circumstance Single Pilot IFR in transport category aircraft.
I know that this goes back to the economic decisions of the company and the basic standards or level of competency required to achieve line clearance.
The question is this.
For those skippers that have faced the newbie/cadet level of experience, do you revert to SP IFR skills, and how do you increase your own vigilance when you are pre-occupied with training these crewmembers new to the profession.
IHD
I am now a training captain myself operating in a multi crew transport category aircraft.
Previously all the ‘training’ I had done was with experienced crews ie: FO’s upgrading to command or new hires that were experienced (thousand hour plus).
Now I (we) find ourselves flying with cadets with fresh licences, how fresh you ask? Lets say sub 300 hours.
Myself and other line captains have found our own jobs have become exponentially more difficult in having to fly and watch the fng like a hawk. Essentially we are now flying in some circumstance Single Pilot IFR in transport category aircraft.
I know that this goes back to the economic decisions of the company and the basic standards or level of competency required to achieve line clearance.
The question is this.
For those skippers that have faced the newbie/cadet level of experience, do you revert to SP IFR skills, and how do you increase your own vigilance when you are pre-occupied with training these crewmembers new to the profession.
IHD
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IHD,
Did exactly that for a lotta years (280 hour guys, give or take), and it certainly helps to have a Flight Engineer in attendance, as he can provide assurance that at least the machine is behaving normally...never mind the junior guy in the right seat.
All I can say is....be patient.
The big smile on the new First Officer when it all comes together (and it nearly always does) is certainly worth the effort.
Did exactly that for a lotta years (280 hour guys, give or take), and it certainly helps to have a Flight Engineer in attendance, as he can provide assurance that at least the machine is behaving normally...never mind the junior guy in the right seat.
All I can say is....be patient.
The big smile on the new First Officer when it all comes together (and it nearly always does) is certainly worth the effort.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a low-hours pilot about to do a jet conversion, I'm genuinely curious about the kind of mistakes that you are seeing in line training with low-hours guys when compared to say the guys who have 1000hrs or more on turbo-props, instructing or air-taxi - if you could elaborate or give an example, I'd find it really interesting.
Perhaps your company is selecting FOs for 'who they know' rather than demonstrated ability in simulators during selection ala BA, Britannia, CTC etc...?
Perhaps your company is selecting FOs for 'who they know' rather than demonstrated ability in simulators during selection ala BA, Britannia, CTC etc...?
Last edited by buttline; 10th Oct 2003 at 01:06.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IHG
............trouble is, it's even harder than that in many ways 'cos you've got someone distracting you at the same time!
And yes, I agree, the job does become exponentially more difficult.
I've always found you've just got to be 100% aware of the potential for a huge f*%$ - up, and training must always take second place to the overall operation. At the same time, don't be pressured into rushing 'cos the guy is slow - if you're late off stand, so be it.
Very easy for descent planning to go very wrong for example, with the obvious potential for hot and high approaches.
Very low time guys/gals with no jet experience will almost invariably be shy of the ground in the last couple of hundred feet, with a tendency for always reducing the rate of descent and landing deep.
Patience and vigilance definitely the key - and don't assume anything. Had a guy tried to wipe us all out one night - nice ILS in gusty conditions, then totally out of the blue chopped the thrust at about 100' and pushed forward on the stick.
Afterwards he said he was scared of floating.
I told him I was scared of dying
Anyway, as 411A says, it's a great buzz when you see them starting to gain confidence, skill and consistency.
Good luck.
Essentially we are now flying in some circumstance Single Pilot IFR in transport category aircraft.
And yes, I agree, the job does become exponentially more difficult.
I've always found you've just got to be 100% aware of the potential for a huge f*%$ - up, and training must always take second place to the overall operation. At the same time, don't be pressured into rushing 'cos the guy is slow - if you're late off stand, so be it.
Very easy for descent planning to go very wrong for example, with the obvious potential for hot and high approaches.
Very low time guys/gals with no jet experience will almost invariably be shy of the ground in the last couple of hundred feet, with a tendency for always reducing the rate of descent and landing deep.
Patience and vigilance definitely the key - and don't assume anything. Had a guy tried to wipe us all out one night - nice ILS in gusty conditions, then totally out of the blue chopped the thrust at about 100' and pushed forward on the stick.
Afterwards he said he was scared of floating. I told him I was scared of dying Anyway, as 411A says, it's a great buzz when you see them starting to gain confidence, skill and consistency.
Good luck.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: sunny country
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello international hog driver,
First, you must have a training plan. It’s very important that the trainee is provided with a clear idea of the training process, giving him guidance on his priorities in learning and explaining how it will operate and, in the first place, make use of the safety co-pilot. PNF duties during early stages is a good beginning to give him more opportunities to improve his basic skills with ATC terminology and communication, documentation, panel scan flows, and etc, and therefore he can progressively organize his workload. The qualified F/O must be carried until when you’re confident in the trainee’s ability to land safely the airplane, operate the radio… at least.
Well, I used this plan during many years teaching very low-hour pilots on 737 and IMHO worked very well... and I never flew SP.
Bkmk
First, you must have a training plan. It’s very important that the trainee is provided with a clear idea of the training process, giving him guidance on his priorities in learning and explaining how it will operate and, in the first place, make use of the safety co-pilot. PNF duties during early stages is a good beginning to give him more opportunities to improve his basic skills with ATC terminology and communication, documentation, panel scan flows, and etc, and therefore he can progressively organize his workload. The qualified F/O must be carried until when you’re confident in the trainee’s ability to land safely the airplane, operate the radio… at least.
Well, I used this plan during many years teaching very low-hour pilots on 737 and IMHO worked very well... and I never flew SP.
Bkmk
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 870
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Forgive my ignorance, but if an experienced and competent training captain can't teach low hours trainees to fly multi-crew jets, who can? If these 1000+hrs guys are coming to him/her with multi-crew jet time, then who taught them when they were obviously newbies? And if they are coming form a single crew, single engine environment (as most probably are in the UK), then how much difference does it really make when neither the newbie or the 1000+hr trainee has any multi-crew experience?
As the obvious spawn of the devil, I'm just curious.
As the obvious spawn of the devil, I'm just curious.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Switzerland
Age: 55
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To start making your life simpler, just look at the problem from another point of view: what do these low-hour, stream-lined cadets bring that your experienced direct-entry FO does not? Most of the time the answer is that the cadets are much more "streamlined" in terms of company procedures, call-outs, SOP and so on... They never did anything different, and don't have to "forget" another way of flying.
So I guess I'm trying to say: reduce your work-load by demanding absolute perfection on such matters as mentioned above (they have had time to learn it, and should be motivated enough to have crammed the book), and leaving you capacity to concentrate on the basics, such as descent planning, scanning, flare and landing....
I was such a 1-year-wonder cadet not very long ago, and had a LOT to learn when starting on the MD80 with 250 hours total... But the big help was that during my whole sponsorship program, SOPs, briefings, and scanning systematics were consistent with an airliner. So my training captains did NOT tolerate any deficiencies in wording, call-outs and such, and instead could concentrate with me on the "flying"...
Still, it's a HUGE step for a cadet to do in a very short time, and I would not want to do it the same way again...
So I guess I'm trying to say: reduce your work-load by demanding absolute perfection on such matters as mentioned above (they have had time to learn it, and should be motivated enough to have crammed the book), and leaving you capacity to concentrate on the basics, such as descent planning, scanning, flare and landing....
I was such a 1-year-wonder cadet not very long ago, and had a LOT to learn when starting on the MD80 with 250 hours total... But the big help was that during my whole sponsorship program, SOPs, briefings, and scanning systematics were consistent with an airliner. So my training captains did NOT tolerate any deficiencies in wording, call-outs and such, and instead could concentrate with me on the "flying"...
Still, it's a HUGE step for a cadet to do in a very short time, and I would not want to do it the same way again...
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FlyMD,
good post - sums it up nicely from the trainee's point of view.
witchdoctor,
sure, if you're talking about low-time cadets going straight onto a jet transport, then yes, of course, someone has to train them.
But, they're making a big step, and this is what presents some unique training challenges.
good post - sums it up nicely from the trainee's point of view.
witchdoctor,
sure, if you're talking about low-time cadets going straight onto a jet transport, then yes, of course, someone has to train them.
But, they're making a big step, and this is what presents some unique training challenges.
Last edited by Maximum; 10th Oct 2003 at 23:14.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South East UK
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Low hour pilots
Listen,
Don't start making it even more difficult for us to find work. For godness sake, we all (even you) had to start somewhere!!!!!!!
After all the money, blood, sweat and time we have all put in to get our FATPL's we don't need someone complaining about companies empoying low hour pilots.
Don't start making it even more difficult for us to find work. For godness sake, we all (even you) had to start somewhere!!!!!!!
After all the money, blood, sweat and time we have all put in to get our FATPL's we don't need someone complaining about companies empoying low hour pilots.
Moderator
Having been involved in training ab initio cadets with varying 200-hour backgrounds onto the 737, I have for better or worse, formed the opinion that a lot more than "standard" simulator endorsement programs can go a long way to reducing the problems you see in early line training.
A truncated quickie endorsement might be acceptable for a current and experienced jet pilot (or a cadet if the emphasis principally is on button pressing) but the cadet expected to demonstrate any level of manipulative or planning competence generally doesn't start to get it together until around 15-20 sessions. A sensible LOFT program of sim sessions can put a bit of procedural and manipulative polish into the equation ... not much depth, of course ... but, at least, the training captain doesn't have to start from scratch on the line.
Cheap insurance I would suggest .... but, sadly, the almighty dollar appears to win the day in most cases it appears ...
A truncated quickie endorsement might be acceptable for a current and experienced jet pilot (or a cadet if the emphasis principally is on button pressing) but the cadet expected to demonstrate any level of manipulative or planning competence generally doesn't start to get it together until around 15-20 sessions. A sensible LOFT program of sim sessions can put a bit of procedural and manipulative polish into the equation ... not much depth, of course ... but, at least, the training captain doesn't have to start from scratch on the line.
Cheap insurance I would suggest .... but, sadly, the almighty dollar appears to win the day in most cases it appears ...
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
have to agree JT. The more enlightened airlines I've worked for have added three or four extra sim sessions, usually simple loft with structured non-normal management built in. Of course this is really a bare minimum, but as you say, it does help when line training starts.
Guest
Posts: n/a
the truth is that not all 'low-houred' pilots need watching 'like a hawk'! The failure comes from the poor selection process in some airlines. OK, you may have passed your ATPL groundschool without failing an exam, but that does not make you a good pilot.
I was low houred, but thanks to the confidence building of the training captains in my company, I was allowed to grow. Allowed to push myself to the limits. Worked for me.
Good luck to you though!
I was low houred, but thanks to the confidence building of the training captains in my company, I was allowed to grow. Allowed to push myself to the limits. Worked for me.
Good luck to you though!
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Zanzi's Bar
Age: 59
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Low-hours trainees
IHD,
I don't know where you fly, but if it is in the "turd" world U must be ready to do The One Man Show Act any time.
I did some training on F-27 more than 10 years ago with a decent company with proper Training Dept with all the good factors thrown in - a lot of these Low-hours trainees r flyin now wide-bodies on d LHS.
Let me give you some examples from my "pathetic" HVN experience:
While still F/o I had to pamper and do d above act with Ansett trained Vietnamese Captains (who only flew wit Ansett instructors in d RHS).
When I got my Command, I flew wit 2 ex-mil dat had a total of 800 h and about 90 years between dem. HVN never bothered to send dem to a Jep course. Dey could not read the charts!!!!!!!
Another guy, I had to fly with had done 3 ground courses on B767 in Seattle before actually dey put him in d hot-seat. His commie Dad wanted his poor son to become a pilot!!!!!!!
All of this because HVN was playing Ansett, Royal Brunei and Region Air against each other. All 3 companies had to train totally inex/unsuitable pilots to retain d contract with HVN.
My Boss at one time had actually to bring in Boeing people, to do base training to prove d unsuitability of some Vietnamese trainees. We had to do their base train - while d Boeing people assigned dem on d average 150 observer legs!!!!!
I don't know where you fly, but if it is in the "turd" world U must be ready to do The One Man Show Act any time.
I did some training on F-27 more than 10 years ago with a decent company with proper Training Dept with all the good factors thrown in - a lot of these Low-hours trainees r flyin now wide-bodies on d LHS.
Let me give you some examples from my "pathetic" HVN experience:
While still F/o I had to pamper and do d above act with Ansett trained Vietnamese Captains (who only flew wit Ansett instructors in d RHS).
When I got my Command, I flew wit 2 ex-mil dat had a total of 800 h and about 90 years between dem. HVN never bothered to send dem to a Jep course. Dey could not read the charts!!!!!!!
Another guy, I had to fly with had done 3 ground courses on B767 in Seattle before actually dey put him in d hot-seat. His commie Dad wanted his poor son to become a pilot!!!!!!!
All of this because HVN was playing Ansett, Royal Brunei and Region Air against each other. All 3 companies had to train totally inex/unsuitable pilots to retain d contract with HVN.
My Boss at one time had actually to bring in Boeing people, to do base training to prove d unsuitability of some Vietnamese trainees. We had to do their base train - while d Boeing people assigned dem on d average 150 observer legs!!!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Global
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, I’ve been away for a week long trip and having read the responses it has shed some light on what my colleagues and I are facing.
To clarify some of the grey areas, yes we are in a lesser developed part of the world, yes some of these guys are more “political” appointees rather than keen aviators and yes some are good others are not.
The replies have only emphasized the deficiencies that we (the trainers) have indicated to the company. We do not have the luxury of a ‘safety pilot’, it was suggested and they offered to place two of the trainees in the cockpit.
The local captains have refused to fly the ‘training routine’ for several reasons.
If anything goes wrong (& it does) they will lose face.
They are scared of repercussions if they tread on the toes of some of the well connected cadets.
Some realize their own limitations (others do not).
This is in no way a reflection on cadets themselves, myself I was never in that position. Self improver to low capacity multi-crew environment, and onwards, so my introduction was slightly different. We used the same procedures in the small stuff as the bigger stuff and hence the step up was more a handling type of experience than a procedural change.
We were not part of the initial training processes and the new crews were all trained by locals designated by the company. We were simply given a new bunch of pilots and told to go fly, with the new guys apparently competent to local standards.
Now before anyone jumps up and down and says that “you have to start somewhere” or “we cant be expected to pass the highest lever” here is an example.
Several of the cadets have been trained in external countries, and their quality is generally much better. One was trained in the UK under in a structured environment before he returned to his home country. Without ever flying locally he was employed by the opposition where a friend of mine trained him in ‘western ways’ (thanks Nugget – you did good). He was subsequently employed by our group and he came to me to ask why Capt X does this and Y & Z do that. He is simply more competent than the rest.
It simply goes down to standards.
Now for some of the low timers who may not understand me clearly. Personally, when I have to pax or my nearest and dearest have to travel, I want a competent crew, where the Skipper is not having to do everything while ‘training’ a pilot of below average skills. I am sure that one day when you are in the LHS you will know what we mean.
When you are flying an aircraft that has been dispatched within the extreme limits of the MEL. In a non-radar busy procedural environment. Where English is not the first language of crews or controllers. In mountainous terrain. With turbulence, CB’s, diversions and a wx radar that’s favourite colour is magenta, all the time trying to show a newbie the ropes.
Safe flying crew
IHD
To clarify some of the grey areas, yes we are in a lesser developed part of the world, yes some of these guys are more “political” appointees rather than keen aviators and yes some are good others are not.
The replies have only emphasized the deficiencies that we (the trainers) have indicated to the company. We do not have the luxury of a ‘safety pilot’, it was suggested and they offered to place two of the trainees in the cockpit.
The local captains have refused to fly the ‘training routine’ for several reasons.
If anything goes wrong (& it does) they will lose face.
They are scared of repercussions if they tread on the toes of some of the well connected cadets.
Some realize their own limitations (others do not).
This is in no way a reflection on cadets themselves, myself I was never in that position. Self improver to low capacity multi-crew environment, and onwards, so my introduction was slightly different. We used the same procedures in the small stuff as the bigger stuff and hence the step up was more a handling type of experience than a procedural change.
We were not part of the initial training processes and the new crews were all trained by locals designated by the company. We were simply given a new bunch of pilots and told to go fly, with the new guys apparently competent to local standards.
Now before anyone jumps up and down and says that “you have to start somewhere” or “we cant be expected to pass the highest lever” here is an example.
Several of the cadets have been trained in external countries, and their quality is generally much better. One was trained in the UK under in a structured environment before he returned to his home country. Without ever flying locally he was employed by the opposition where a friend of mine trained him in ‘western ways’ (thanks Nugget – you did good). He was subsequently employed by our group and he came to me to ask why Capt X does this and Y & Z do that. He is simply more competent than the rest.
It simply goes down to standards.
Now for some of the low timers who may not understand me clearly. Personally, when I have to pax or my nearest and dearest have to travel, I want a competent crew, where the Skipper is not having to do everything while ‘training’ a pilot of below average skills. I am sure that one day when you are in the LHS you will know what we mean.
When you are flying an aircraft that has been dispatched within the extreme limits of the MEL. In a non-radar busy procedural environment. Where English is not the first language of crews or controllers. In mountainous terrain. With turbulence, CB’s, diversions and a wx radar that’s favourite colour is magenta, all the time trying to show a newbie the ropes.
Safe flying crew
IHD
I know its won't be popular with the ab initio crowd, but give me a high time guy. The progression to the right seat of a large jet in the US in via the military or through regionals. Either way, by the time they make it to the right seat, they have been Captains on a complex turbine aircraft. Thinking like a Captain is something that can only happen with experience. The monkey skills of IFR are easily learned, thinking like a PIC is not.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AS has been said earlier, there is no problem with putting a low houred pilot into the RHS of a complex jet provided he is of the right calibre. It has been done for many years in europe with the major flag carriers and others.
The facts of the matter is that not everyone is capable of being a low houred FO in a jet. Proper airline selection procedures should see to this.
In the same way that not every military pilot is good enough to be a fast jet pilot. And not every fast jet pilot is streamed into single seat stuff either.
The facts of the matter is that not everyone is capable of being a low houred FO in a jet. Proper airline selection procedures should see to this.
In the same way that not every military pilot is good enough to be a fast jet pilot. And not every fast jet pilot is streamed into single seat stuff either.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: alaska
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Edited
wilco77, if you repeat personal attacks on people here for asking questions I will ban you from the Forum. That also goes for anyone else who thinks this is a "flame" forum. As I have stated on several occasions, this forum is extremely valuable in allowing people to ask others (possibly seniors) questions that haven't been answered or cannot be answered elsewhere in their lives/careers. I am not prepared to permit the trigger-happy few to inhibit questions being asked.
wilco77, if you repeat personal attacks on people here for asking questions I will ban you from the Forum. That also goes for anyone else who thinks this is a "flame" forum. As I have stated on several occasions, this forum is extremely valuable in allowing people to ask others (possibly seniors) questions that haven't been answered or cannot be answered elsewhere in their lives/careers. I am not prepared to permit the trigger-happy few to inhibit questions being asked.
Last edited by Captain Stable; 16th Oct 2003 at 16:02.