London city airport
Pukka PPRuNer!!
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Bloody hell chaps, this thread has grown way bigger than I anticipated!! 
Keep those postcards coming in.......
If y'all want to organise a do at LCY sometime, I would be more than happy to turn up....
Keep those postcards coming in.......
If y'all want to organise a do at LCY sometime, I would be more than happy to turn up....
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flexmode... 1658 and counting... 
Downanwelded, sure do. I remember how long the runway used to be, and how much I wanted the job I was offered with London City Airways... sadly, they bit the dust before I could join. The Dash 7 must have been fun to fly...
Downanwelded, sure do. I remember how long the runway used to be, and how much I wanted the job I was offered with London City Airways... sadly, they bit the dust before I could join. The Dash 7 must have been fun to fly...
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Hello guy's.......
I'm done looking for shell's, another few days to get rested from this short holliday and of we go to LCY. And to my supprise this keeps going. Quite interesting though and YES i'm all in for a gettogether at LCY!!!!!
I have to agree with RD that it is hardly fair to say it's difficult to land at LCY with the Little stuka. But i think they are impressively equipt with avionics considdering the size of the cockpit?
And with regard to the most frequent flyer At LCY;There are two kind of lies, ordinary lies and....statistics!
nuf said good Night
I'm done looking for shell's, another few days to get rested from this short holliday and of we go to LCY. And to my supprise this keeps going. Quite interesting though and YES i'm all in for a gettogether at LCY!!!!!
I have to agree with RD that it is hardly fair to say it's difficult to land at LCY with the Little stuka. But i think they are impressively equipt with avionics considdering the size of the cockpit?
And with regard to the most frequent flyer At LCY;There are two kind of lies, ordinary lies and....statistics!
nuf said good Night
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Hello fly4fud,
Looks like we are working for the same company.When the conditions are good I let sometimes my copilots land the aircraft at LCY, even if the books say.....as long as they do it the way we discuss it in the briefing (conservative speeds and so on).
The second point is, no need to add, a good training for me since the departure is very demanding.
See you in one of our cockpits soon, regards
Looks like we are working for the same company.When the conditions are good I let sometimes my copilots land the aircraft at LCY, even if the books say.....as long as they do it the way we discuss it in the briefing (conservative speeds and so on).
The second point is, no need to add, a good training for me since the departure is very demanding.
See you in one of our cockpits soon, regards
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Hi Greg Boyington!
Then you are one of a kind (ok, there might be a few other left seater allowing the F/O to land at LCY).
I agree that the departure can be quite demanding. Using the proper flaps retraction schedule (from say 33), selecting the right power, switching eng ant-ice, lights, releasing cabin and navigating at the same time can be a challenge.
See ya
P.S.
Yeah, we do work for the same company, I'have seen your handle on the CCP forum already more than once...
Then you are one of a kind (ok, there might be a few other left seater allowing the F/O to land at LCY).
I agree that the departure can be quite demanding. Using the proper flaps retraction schedule (from say 33), selecting the right power, switching eng ant-ice, lights, releasing cabin and navigating at the same time can be a challenge.
See ya
P.S.
Yeah, we do work for the same company, I'have seen your handle on the CCP forum already more than once...
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A technical point chaps. (ATC here)
If LCY is landing Easterly and LL is landing Westerly the approaches are NOT separated! Be ready for the base leg turn because if you miss it you will end up under the ILS for 27L/R at about 10 miles out, at 2.0A . At that point Heathrow are dropping to 2.5A. There has already been an airmiss and several occasions of compromised separation!
If LCY is landing Easterly and LL is landing Westerly the approaches are NOT separated! Be ready for the base leg turn because if you miss it you will end up under the ILS for 27L/R at about 10 miles out, at 2.0A . At that point Heathrow are dropping to 2.5A. There has already been an airmiss and several occasions of compromised separation!
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A technical point chaps. (pilot here)
Why do ATC seem completely unable to judge speed and radius of turn, and give you turns to the localiser that leave you a mile the other side? Maybe you expect us all to be doing 120 kts... fat chance...
By the way, I usually let the AP do it unless we are on a visual, so you can't blame the driver! Try anticipating the turn on... especially when we are obviously keeping the speed up (to help you out, of course... )
We love you guys really...
Why do ATC seem completely unable to judge speed and radius of turn, and give you turns to the localiser that leave you a mile the other side? Maybe you expect us all to be doing 120 kts... fat chance...
By the way, I usually let the AP do it unless we are on a visual, so you can't blame the driver! Try anticipating the turn on... especially when we are obviously keeping the speed up (to help you out, of course...
)We love you guys really...
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Hi Raw Data
All I can say is I'm a Heathrow man not LCY. We dictate exact speeds and so the radius of turn shouldn't be a problem. Having said that, it is quite a legitimate tactic to deliberately turn base leg early and go through the centrline from one side so that you can also turn the guy from the otherside onto base without pointing them at each other. If that is the case you should be warned that you will be going through or at least that you will be going right up to the centrline before you get the turn in. A point of professionalism I guess. Maybe the LCY boys aren't doing that.
Some aircrft, most notably the A320 do seem to be slow in the turn if the auto pilot does it. We have queried this before and found that the auto pilot was only doing a rate half turn. It is quite a common practice at Heathrow to ask traffic turning downwind off BIG to do a manual turn.
Hope that helps.
All I can say is I'm a Heathrow man not LCY. We dictate exact speeds and so the radius of turn shouldn't be a problem. Having said that, it is quite a legitimate tactic to deliberately turn base leg early and go through the centrline from one side so that you can also turn the guy from the otherside onto base without pointing them at each other. If that is the case you should be warned that you will be going through or at least that you will be going right up to the centrline before you get the turn in. A point of professionalism I guess. Maybe the LCY boys aren't doing that.
Some aircrft, most notably the A320 do seem to be slow in the turn if the auto pilot does it. We have queried this before and found that the auto pilot was only doing a rate half turn. It is quite a common practice at Heathrow to ask traffic turning downwind off BIG to do a manual turn.
Hope that helps.
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Methinks the main problem happen when 10 is in use. Final will be a whole 3 NM long
When 28 is in use, we never had any problem, "leave Detling HDG so and so to establish on the LOC28". But sometimes we also shot thru the LOC 10, coming into base with a stiff southerly wind.
"please state reason for your G/A"
"well, not really established..."
When 28 is in use, we never had any problem, "leave Detling HDG so and so to establish on the LOC28". But sometimes we also shot thru the LOC 10, coming into base with a stiff southerly wind.
"please state reason for your G/A"
"well, not really established..."
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I wish the 10 final was 3nm long, then at least it would be separated from Heathrow on Westerlies. Currently, traffic on the two approaches can get to just over a mile apart, 500' vertically and they are deemed separated. Anywhere else that would be an airprox!
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Yes, 09L, that what makes the place so much fun!!! 
On a nice day, doing a visual onto 10 (otherwise known as the Buck Palace 2B), we always smile to ourselves when the Thames controller says something like "Er... just confirm you will be turning base shortly..." which of course really means "PLEASE turn base now..."
[ 31 July 2001: Message edited by: Raw Data ]
On a nice day, doing a visual onto 10 (otherwise known as the Buck Palace 2B), we always smile to ourselves when the Thames controller says something like "Er... just confirm you will be turning base shortly..." which of course really means "PLEASE turn base now..."
[ 31 July 2001: Message edited by: Raw Data ]
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09L, what do you think we feel like, no not talking about your (more or less ) controlled traffic at Heathrow, but about the continuous TA and sometimes RAs we get. The uncontrolled VFR being direclty below, vertical separation is in the order of 500'
This what I call controlled airprox...
And most don't even sqwak C, they must know why
) controlled traffic at Heathrow, but about the continuous TA and sometimes RAs we get. The uncontrolled VFR being direclty below, vertical separation is in the order of 500' This what I call controlled airprox...
And most don't even sqwak C, they must know why
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... not to mention light aircraft doing scenics down the Thames, news/traffic/police/medevac helicopters buzzing around, and the odd stray balloon... ... and then there is the Biggin traffic...
Going north, we often get worried about Luton, especially if (as often seems to happen) the London controller has forgotten that we are still at 3000 feet, heading straight for the LLA ILS. Just as the hands start getting moist, you get the call... "Ah, JY768 climb immediately to 6000 feet with your best rate!! Expedite!!!"
Either that, or we are higher but one of the Easy 737s has screwed up the SID and hasn't levelled off...
Finally, it always worries me that we get sent to Lambourne (ie Stapleford), which almost guarantees a TA or two; or, whilst getting the scenic tour of Kent and Essex, we get sent directly overhead Rochester (another guaranteed TA), or sometimes Southend- sorry, Sarf-en'- which ATC call SPEAR just to confuse us. Mind you, still haven't managed to get to the mythical ALKIN...
On the plus side, speed control is usually pretty good. However, I don't think the London controllers appreciate how flexible the 146/RJ is. A typical conversation goes something like this:
"JY768, slow to minimum safe approach... what will that be?"
We can give you 120kts"
"Oh! Right... great! Ah well, in that case, turn right, close from the right call established!!"
Don't suppose any of you ATCOs can explain why it is we get put on a heading at, say, 2000 feet seconds after departure, and not released on "own nav" until somewhere north of the Pole??? Don't you trust us???
I LOVE the City approach, still amongst the best fun you can have in UK airspace...
... and then there is the Biggin traffic...Going north, we often get worried about Luton, especially if (as often seems to happen) the London controller has forgotten that we are still at 3000 feet, heading straight for the LLA ILS. Just as the hands start getting moist, you get the call... "Ah, JY768 climb immediately to 6000 feet with your best rate!! Expedite!!!"
Either that, or we are higher but one of the Easy 737s has screwed up the SID and hasn't levelled off...
Finally, it always worries me that we get sent to Lambourne (ie Stapleford), which almost guarantees a TA or two; or, whilst getting the scenic tour of Kent and Essex, we get sent directly overhead Rochester (another guaranteed TA), or sometimes Southend- sorry, Sarf-en'- which ATC call SPEAR just to confuse us. Mind you, still haven't managed to get to the mythical ALKIN...
On the plus side, speed control is usually pretty good. However, I don't think the London controllers appreciate how flexible the 146/RJ is. A typical conversation goes something like this:
"JY768, slow to minimum safe approach... what will that be?"
We can give you 120kts"
"Oh! Right... great! Ah well, in that case, turn right, close from the right call established!!"
Don't suppose any of you ATCOs can explain why it is we get put on a heading at, say, 2000 feet seconds after departure, and not released on "own nav" until somewhere north of the Pole??? Don't you trust us???
I LOVE the City approach, still amongst the best fun you can have in UK airspace...
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Hello again RD & F4F,
Yes indeed the 10 (LCY)will give our profesional colleagues on thames now and then a less then proffesional appearance when vectoring us! especially when IMC it is hard to tell if we'll need another lineup or are able to pull a descent landing out off this dive bomber excercise. Never had a problem on the 28 either.
On more than one occasion we had to remind ATC that it was not in our intentions to x the channel at 3000' mostly getting a reply like..."Ah yes eh...climb level..eh...120 and contact london on ***,** bye"
Sometimes it looks that they(london 120,17/52) are so buissy looking at those "fast" 737 and bigger that they won't dare releas us in to the higher airspace.
I sugested an extra revenue activity to management; fish spotting off DVR! whilst enroute!
Yes indeed the 10 (LCY)will give our profesional colleagues on thames now and then a less then proffesional appearance when vectoring us! especially when IMC it is hard to tell if we'll need another lineup or are able to pull a descent landing out off this dive bomber excercise. Never had a problem on the 28 either.
On more than one occasion we had to remind ATC that it was not in our intentions to x the channel at 3000' mostly getting a reply like..."Ah yes eh...climb level..eh...120 and contact london on ***,** bye"
Sometimes it looks that they(london 120,17/52) are so buissy looking at those "fast" 737 and bigger that they won't dare releas us in to the higher airspace.
I sugested an extra revenue activity to management; fish spotting off DVR! whilst enroute!
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Hi F4F & RD
Yep... I sit watching 'em happen, with our conflict alert (which I don't believe your Thames and City boys have) going beserk! But as RD says, obviously you all find it such fun that you keep going back for more!!
AS far as own NAV (chuckle) before the (chuckle chuckle) Pole!! (chuckle, chuckle, chuckle) is concerned (ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,) when did you last visit TC?? (Anybody got a clothes brush, I seem to have fallen over). Come and 'ave a gander and you won't need to ask. As a Heathrow man a cannot give you a definative answer but I do sit close to the boys 'clinging on' in TMA NE and NW. It has to be seen to be believed, particularly early morning or tea time. How shall I put this? ...everything is on a heading and every heading is avoiding action!
Seriously, just for a moment: The TMA works by each track being carefully positioned on the correct side of an airway or clear of another departure track or around the XXX hold etc. It is no longer an 'own NAV' environment until you are reasonably high. For instance, you would think that BB and CC are sufficiently far from LC not to affect you too much? If you are northbound out of LC you are a direct conflict to most of it and you have to be vecored against it.
Hope that helps.
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: ZeroNine Left ]
Yep... I sit watching 'em happen, with our conflict alert (which I don't believe your Thames and City boys have) going beserk! But as RD says, obviously you all find it such fun that you keep going back for more!!
AS far as own NAV (chuckle) before the (chuckle chuckle) Pole!! (chuckle, chuckle, chuckle) is concerned (ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,) when did you last visit TC?? (Anybody got a clothes brush, I seem to have fallen over). Come and 'ave a gander and you won't need to ask. As a Heathrow man a cannot give you a definative answer but I do sit close to the boys 'clinging on' in TMA NE and NW. It has to be seen to be believed, particularly early morning or tea time. How shall I put this? ...everything is on a heading and every heading is avoiding action!
Seriously, just for a moment: The TMA works by each track being carefully positioned on the correct side of an airway or clear of another departure track or around the XXX hold etc. It is no longer an 'own NAV' environment until you are reasonably high. For instance, you would think that BB and CC are sufficiently far from LC not to affect you too much? If you are northbound out of LC you are a direct conflict to most of it and you have to be vecored against it.
Hope that helps.
[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: ZeroNine Left ]
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09L: Nope, doesn't help at all, but at least we know more now!!!
Of course, I know what you are saying; whenever we transit London airspace higher up (as we do when returning from Corsica, usually going DET-BPK) we are seldom bothered with vectors.
So does the lower-level congestion explain the often harrassed-sounding controllers then?
BTW could you let you colleagues know that we are getting sick of being slowed to 210 kts to acommodate the Dash 8 in front of us. Just vector the Dash out of the way and let us through!!
(Puts on asbestos underwear as the tempers of all Dash drivers go white-hot).
Oh, and another thing for the LCY folk here: when is the ground power on stand 3 going to be fixed...???
Of course, I know what you are saying; whenever we transit London airspace higher up (as we do when returning from Corsica, usually going DET-BPK) we are seldom bothered with vectors.
So does the lower-level congestion explain the often harrassed-sounding controllers then?
BTW could you let you colleagues know that we are getting sick of being slowed to 210 kts to acommodate the Dash 8 in front of us. Just vector the Dash out of the way and let us through!!
(Puts on asbestos underwear as the tempers of all Dash drivers go white-hot).
Oh, and another thing for the LCY folk here: when is the ground power on stand 3 going to be fixed...???
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Don't know but comming on to stand 5 they put on a mobile straight away. so stand five has had it too?
Bye the way RD yesterday i heard an colleague of yours on the freq. he was being called buy a she-pilot on a sead-bird. and apparantly he put the wrong name to the right gall and was so flabergasted :o :o that he used the four letter word normaly meaning 'excreta' on the radio. quite an amusing radio show! Flight 481???
Im resting now after my 6
sector day yesterday.
I'll be back in LCY on Thursday morning and Friday morning.anyone there for coffee??
[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: Pointer ]
Bye the way RD yesterday i heard an colleague of yours on the freq. he was being called buy a she-pilot on a sead-bird. and apparantly he put the wrong name to the right gall and was so flabergasted :o :o that he used the four letter word normaly meaning 'excreta' on the radio. quite an amusing radio show!
Flight 481???Im resting now after my 6
sector day yesterday. I'll be back in LCY on Thursday morning and Friday morning.anyone there for coffee??
[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: Pointer ]