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London city airport

Old 19th Jun 2001, 11:55
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swashplate
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Question London city airport

Just wondering: Short runway, steep approach...

Seems to be mostly turboprops/BAe 146s there.
However, I once saw a Fokker 100 there.

Can any other aircraft use it?

737-500?? A319??

Discuss......


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Old 19th Jun 2001, 15:12
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RNAV
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Cool

From the limited knowledge that I have of that AD, I think it's not only the aircraft characteristics that limit it. The fact that it is right in the middle of a densley populated area might have something to do with it (NIMBY's and noise levels, saftey considerations etc).

Of course, the steep approach factor that you mentioned is also important as they will only allow a/c cleared for approch path angles of 5.5 deg or greater. Which rules out most shorthaul type jets that are best operated on a 3 deg basis (due SOPs or FM data).
 
Old 20th Jun 2001, 02:50
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Raw Data
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Swashplate- I doubt you saw a Fokker 100 there, although one operator used a Fokker 70 for a while. AFAIK, only the 146 and F70 are certified for LCY (apart from exec jets). Not such a problem for turboprops. No way you'd get any Boeing or Airbus in there (runway is 1200x30m).
 
Old 20th Jun 2001, 16:22
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swashplate
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Unhappy

Hmmmmmmmm...........

.....thinking about it, it could have been a Fokker 70. It was a while ago!

Maybe runway Length is an arguement for whirlybirds!!

But what about the A318/regional jets??

[This message has been edited by swashplate (edited 20 June 2001).]
 
Old 21st Jun 2001, 01:20
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NorthernSky
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The problem is parking. The stands won't take anthing A318/737-500 size, though the runway is not as limiting as you might think. There are obstacle problems, too, significantly the warehouse just south of the 28 climb-out.

Beautiful, fun, little airport though - I miss it!!

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'Brighten my Northern Sky' Nick Drake R.I.P.
 
Old 21st Jun 2001, 02:05
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Raw Data
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It isn't so much a TODA/LDA problem, it's the approach that prevents A318/737s from landing there... no way either of them will make the 5.5 degree glideslope- they can't slow down adequately on the approach. Prove me wrong, somebody...

 
Old 21st Jun 2001, 23:44
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gordonroxburgh
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LCY is one of the world's "intersting" approaches.....Especially with a hefty wind blowing as it does in East London.

Another regular visiter is the Dornier 328. it is regularly flown into LCY by Scot Airways and also the De Havilland Dash 7/8
 
Old 22nd Jun 2001, 00:23
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Red Spitfire Driver
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Also F27, Saab 340/2000
 
Old 22nd Jun 2001, 04:03
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Raw Data
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Nope, sorry. No F27's use LCY (and never have done- not enough SE climb performance).

Question: What looks like an F27, but really isn't...???

There hasn't been a Dash 7 in there in many years, nor a Saab 340...

Anybody remember London City Airways?

These days, it's 146/RJ, Saab 2000, Dornier 328, ATR42, Dash 8, Fokker 50. Until recently, Jetstream 41. Coming soon, Q400, RJX. Possible the 328Jet if Dornier do the airframe mods (not looking likely at the moment). Some have mooted the ERJ145, but that is unlikely too due to performance and structural problems.

[This message has been edited by Raw Data (edited 22 June 2001).]
 
Old 22nd Jun 2001, 14:19
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Flap Sup
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Raw Data,

I doubt that the RWY is the limiting factor for 737 operations, as I know that DM uses B735 for the faroe Islands (RWY 1250m, but used to be 1150m)

I know that the 146 is certified for LCY, does that include ARJ (it ought to be, as the performance is pretty much better)

rgds FS
 
Old 22nd Jun 2001, 14:53
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Tcas climb
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Raw Data

Could that be a Fokker 50??

That does not have a impressive single engine performance either.
 
Old 22nd Jun 2001, 21:02
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fly4fud
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Flap Sup, if you observe the tarmac at LCY during peak time(s), all LX 146s you will see are from the RJ family, either -85, -100, or 100 MkII.

For all the readers, one interesting thing about operating the ARJ, is max performance take-off out of LCY is done using full flaps, e.g. flaps 33
It must be the only A/C to take off with full flaps for MTOM or are they any other?

One other future aircraft that might be coming into LCY soon (alright, not before about 2 years) is the ERJ170. LX has ordered 30 of those (+another 30 of the 190-200 type) and those have been ordered on the promise they could operate into LCY. From what I heard, flaps alone will not permit to maintain the slope during the approach. They will have speedbrakes (spoilers) on the top of the wing, but, as with similarly equipped airplanes cannot be used when the flaps are down. So. It seems Embraer is looking at a under belly speed brake, similar in concept to the one used on some fighter aircraft!
Wait and see

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Old 22nd Jun 2001, 23:08
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http://www.londoncityairways.co.uk/

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Old 23rd Jun 2001, 03:05
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Raw Data
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Ah now that takes me back...

Flap Sup- Like I said, not the runway, the 5.5 degree glideslope. No way you can slow down any Boeing or Airbus on that slope. Having said that, even if you could use a 3 degree glideslope, I doubt the 737 could lift more than a half load and virtually no fuel on a warm, calm day. Especially considering the engine-out climb requirements. Maybe a 737 driver could provide some figures?

Besides, the 737 couldn't land there without reversers, I fancy (reversers not allowed for noise reasons).
 
Old 25th Jun 2001, 21:18
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Pointer
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Raw Data;

Indeed we opperate the F27 daily into LCY. And yes its a F27-mk50 or in other words Fokker 50. and it just looks like a friendship. As for the jet ops why do you guy's think the 328 jet has not been to LCY yet? according to my sources it's the speed thing, they just can't loos it. as for a 146 they go "much" faster on level flight but nothing beats a turboprop on app. 220 till 8 miles and flight idle makes for a smooth approach that seems to please even the pax. Why then do they allways put us behind those oversized gupy's. where we end up minimum app speed on 20 miles????? Planning is everything controlers (especialy thems)

I gues they can't make good for the descend profile well enough on most jets and where are we going to put them ( dash8 need two stands to park in one other wise they risk loosing theyre nose gear!!!!) Fokker is dead long live Fokker.

Pointer
 
Old 26th Jun 2001, 03:25
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Raw Data
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Well maybe this is semantics; however, my info is that the F50 is not in any way, shape or form officially an F27. The two are quite different; diferent fuselage, different engines, different wing, different landing gear, no pneumatics on the F50, new flight deck, etc...

Regarding approaches, much as I hate to rain on you parade, you seem to have it backwards. It is usually the F50 slowing us down (in the 146). You see, we maintain 250 kts to about 7 miles, then just go flight idle and open the airbrake. By 4 miles we are at 120 kts, configured for landing and stable. If one is feeling particularly heroic, you can keep 250 kts to 5 miles, but that means not being stable at 120 kts or so until about 2 miles. Sorry, but thems the facts!

Mostly, the reason you get minimum safe approach speed at 20 miles is the same as we do; somebody backtracking for departure. A real pain, until that is it is your turn to backtrack for departure!

One thing is for sure, Fokker made some great aircraft- I used to love flying the F27...
 
Old 26th Jun 2001, 22:05
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Pointer
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Raw Data,

On some parts you are correct it has no pneumatics and different ldg gear and also the engines are of a different bread. but for the rest it is an F27 (so says the type: F27-mk50) except for the windows they seem to keep us at slow speed. the fuselage is defenetly the same (plus or minus a plug) and for the wings they are also the same as the F27 ( again except for the Fokker invention of the winglets called foklets).

The inside is somewhat more modern, quiet and amazing clean setup.

I wonder who you fly for?????? because yes it is offcourse generalised to say they are all slow, i'm ammazed to hear what you can do with that british technological "wonder" and no offence intended. but some 146 drivers........lets call it :need the blockhours!

I'm trying to leave my fokker and go on to something else.....maybe a 146 is not a bad place to be?

See ya in LCY?

Pointer

[This message has been edited by Pointer (edited 26 June 2001).]
 
Old 28th Jun 2001, 16:43
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Raw Data
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Pointer,

OK, didn't know about the designation. The reasons I said the fuselage is different are:

Different windows
Different door type and location
No cargo area at the front

Plus of course the British CAA require a separate type rating for it, as they feel it is too different to the F27 to be covered by a "differences" course.

Yes, many 146 drivers do fly very slowly around LCY. Perhaps it comes down to company policy. Our original brief for LCY called for slowing down to 140 kts a long way out, but that simply isn't very practical. Of course, sometimes everybody is being slowed dowm for congestion- I have been slowed to 220 kts while still 70 miles out, then brought back to 160 kts when 40 miles out due traffic. We usually end up getting slowed down by Dornier 328s when there isn't much other traffic.

We don't always maintain high speeds to finals, we are normally back a bit from that. However, we can keep the speed up if asked to. Some pilots are more comfortable with it than others, too.

Also, some pilots only fly there occasionally, and they (quite rightly) tend to be very cautious. I do it every day, so I know exactly what I can achieve there. I guess my favourite LCY experience is a visual approach on 10. We call that the Buckingham Palace 1A approach.

The 146 is definitely fun, I'll guarantee you that!

Who do I work for? Well, who uses most of the stands at busy times??

See you in LCY!
 
Old 28th Jun 2001, 19:43
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fly4fud
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RD, ooohhh, then we must working for the same company, uh?



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... cut my wings and I'll die ...
 
Old 29th Jun 2001, 01:59
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Raw Data
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Nah... don't they teach you guys to count in Switzerland...???

 

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