Why so few girls ?
Guest
Posts: n/a
I am surprised that a tone of bitchiness is rearing it's ugly head. That is NOT meant to suggest that it is coming only from the ladies either. Some of whom I know personally, and know to be sensible and knowledgeable of aviation.
So...perhaps it might be as well to steady the tone and keep an interesting thread alive.
From a personal point of view I have watched with interest over very many years the number of girls entering aviation, both civil and military, and I am delighted that this has happened. I flew with one of the first, Jean Cazalet, Marion Booth and others. There are some fine women pilots in many of the airlines now too, and in the military, one of whom I have enormous respect for as a Captain of a C130. Now, there is a lady who is in command of a RAF helicopter Squadron. There is also one of our wannabe Astraeus cadets who has just completed her line training and is now a fully fledged FO on the B737. We also have McD, one of our moderators, who has demonstrated that not only can she fly a B767, she can, and has, acquitted herself supremely well at the controls of and F16 fighter! What CAN you add to that?
Credit MUST be given to these females who have by and large had to put up with bigotry and bloody mindedness. In that regard I think that those who are guilty of such stupidity must question their own position and reasons. Women in aviation have as much right to be flying big and small jets as do the guys.
PPP
So...perhaps it might be as well to steady the tone and keep an interesting thread alive.
From a personal point of view I have watched with interest over very many years the number of girls entering aviation, both civil and military, and I am delighted that this has happened. I flew with one of the first, Jean Cazalet, Marion Booth and others. There are some fine women pilots in many of the airlines now too, and in the military, one of whom I have enormous respect for as a Captain of a C130. Now, there is a lady who is in command of a RAF helicopter Squadron. There is also one of our wannabe Astraeus cadets who has just completed her line training and is now a fully fledged FO on the B737. We also have McD, one of our moderators, who has demonstrated that not only can she fly a B767, she can, and has, acquitted herself supremely well at the controls of and F16 fighter! What CAN you add to that?
Credit MUST be given to these females who have by and large had to put up with bigotry and bloody mindedness. In that regard I think that those who are guilty of such stupidity must question their own position and reasons. Women in aviation have as much right to be flying big and small jets as do the guys.
PPP
Plastic PPRuNer
'Cmon now. Skip the prejudices, which undoubtedly still exist. In the end it's got nothing to do with brains or ability or will or dedication, but a lot to do with biology. Most women (and men) want to have children. However PC and supportive the partner is it is the woman who get pregnant, carries the baby, gives birth, lactates and is the most important for the first years. A baby's primary bond is to the mother, not the father.
I hate the hackneyed pilot/surgeon comparison, but the M:F proportions are nearly as skew with us as with you and for much the same reasons. Very long training, a lot of time away from home, endless exams, unsociable hours, on call and out at night and active surgery isn't the same as being a GP. Once you're on your way up the ladder it's hard to drop out for the minimum 2 years, regain proficiency and restart the climb and it's even harder to do twice or even three times.
I know several really top class women cutters, but most have chosen not to have have children and those who do have a husband with a quieter job and an extended family support system.
I hate the hackneyed pilot/surgeon comparison, but the M:F proportions are nearly as skew with us as with you and for much the same reasons. Very long training, a lot of time away from home, endless exams, unsociable hours, on call and out at night and active surgery isn't the same as being a GP. Once you're on your way up the ladder it's hard to drop out for the minimum 2 years, regain proficiency and restart the climb and it's even harder to do twice or even three times.
I know several really top class women cutters, but most have chosen not to have have children and those who do have a husband with a quieter job and an extended family support system.
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
flower,
I think we're in agreement as to the problem, just not about the solution. And agreeing to differ is fine with me - nice to meet someone on PPRuNe who doesn't turn every minor disagreement into a flame war.
I've followed numerous posts concerning women in aviation on PPRuNe over the years, on various topics, and they almost always follow this pattern:
1) Posts 1 - 10/20/30 ........The posts stay fairly on topic, whatever it is.
2) Mr Prejudice finds the thread, no matter where it's hiding, even on a forum he never normally reads. He posts something which is superficially on topic, but actually saying that women can't and shouldn't be pilots. This is probably irrelevant to the topic under discussion anyway.
3) Several women argue with Mr Prejudice, sometimes heatedly. They start to realise it's a waste of time, when...
4) Mr Windup finds the thread, and...er... winds everyone up.
5) Despite being urged to ignore Mr Windup, several people get wound up.
6) Ms Head-in-the-Sand pops up and says she's never encountered any prejudice in aviation. But she asks us nicely to shut up, in case we all annoy the guys - we've gotta play the game haven't we.
7) Mr Patronising tells us to be good little girls and shut up; there's been positive discrimination for the last 100 years; it's just that we're taking everything the wrong way and being stupid, but he'd expect that.
8) Mr Nice Guy finds the topic, and reminds everyone that women have been flying for a number of years, that some of them are Very Good, and that they EVEN become Captains on airliners and fly for the military!!!!! Mr Nice Guy would be appreciated, except for the fact that you can almost hear the "Wow, isn't that amazing, aren't they clever" in his post.
9) Mr Biology-is-Destiny decides to bring in genetics, families, kids, maternal instincts, and all that kinda stuff. PPRuNe gives a collective yawn. I always wonder why it never occurs to anyone, including the government, that kids are BOTH parents' responsibility.
10) By this point most female pilots have got bored or despairing of the human race, and probably gone flying. Aircraft do what they're asked to do, behave logically, and are unprejudiced. Some of us like them better than men. Need you ask why?
11) The thread degenerates, the original topic long gone, and the people it was relevant to doing something more important and interesting.
12) The moderator closes it.
I'm off on holiday tomorrow, so let's hope this particular thread will prove me wrong. I'm not sure I'll have Internet access, so I'm leaving it anyway.
I think we're in agreement as to the problem, just not about the solution. And agreeing to differ is fine with me - nice to meet someone on PPRuNe who doesn't turn every minor disagreement into a flame war.
I've followed numerous posts concerning women in aviation on PPRuNe over the years, on various topics, and they almost always follow this pattern:
1) Posts 1 - 10/20/30 ........The posts stay fairly on topic, whatever it is.
2) Mr Prejudice finds the thread, no matter where it's hiding, even on a forum he never normally reads. He posts something which is superficially on topic, but actually saying that women can't and shouldn't be pilots. This is probably irrelevant to the topic under discussion anyway.
3) Several women argue with Mr Prejudice, sometimes heatedly. They start to realise it's a waste of time, when...
4) Mr Windup finds the thread, and...er... winds everyone up.
5) Despite being urged to ignore Mr Windup, several people get wound up.
6) Ms Head-in-the-Sand pops up and says she's never encountered any prejudice in aviation. But she asks us nicely to shut up, in case we all annoy the guys - we've gotta play the game haven't we.
7) Mr Patronising tells us to be good little girls and shut up; there's been positive discrimination for the last 100 years; it's just that we're taking everything the wrong way and being stupid, but he'd expect that.
8) Mr Nice Guy finds the topic, and reminds everyone that women have been flying for a number of years, that some of them are Very Good, and that they EVEN become Captains on airliners and fly for the military!!!!! Mr Nice Guy would be appreciated, except for the fact that you can almost hear the "Wow, isn't that amazing, aren't they clever" in his post.
9) Mr Biology-is-Destiny decides to bring in genetics, families, kids, maternal instincts, and all that kinda stuff. PPRuNe gives a collective yawn. I always wonder why it never occurs to anyone, including the government, that kids are BOTH parents' responsibility.
10) By this point most female pilots have got bored or despairing of the human race, and probably gone flying. Aircraft do what they're asked to do, behave logically, and are unprejudiced. Some of us like them better than men. Need you ask why?
11) The thread degenerates, the original topic long gone, and the people it was relevant to doing something more important and interesting.
12) The moderator closes it.
I'm off on holiday tomorrow, so let's hope this particular thread will prove me wrong. I'm not sure I'll have Internet access, so I'm leaving it anyway.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: hoschton, GA, USA
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My experience with female airline pilots is that most of them are very good manipulators of the controls.
However, things change when they are in their late thirties and have their babies....In our airline they park themself on the widebodies, don't keep current, and most are adamant that they no longer want to be here but want to be home with their kids.
A couple of trips ago JFK is departing RW 31. There is a T-Procedure called "Track the centerline for 5 DME climb to 1500 feet turn left to Colts Neck VOR."
I tell my crew in the T/O briefing we are not going to comply with this. I see no reason to fly towards tall buildings when I can go over the water, dump fuel, and come back to land. And no way am I going to try to explain to the FAA why I passed a perfectly good airport (Newark) on the way to Colts Neck on one engine and didn't land.
The girl sez you must comply.
I say no, and explain why and how the obstacle clearance path is developed. In closing I say "You should read the Advisory Circular about this. It will answer a lot of your questions.
She replies, "I have two kids, and no time for this job."
(All of this was for naught, tho, talked to engineering and found out the T-Procedure was their to avoid a no fly zone after 9/11 which was no longer in effect....)
And don't even let me start with the pregnat F/0 who, when I asked for a step climb from FL 35 to FL 39 said "We can't climb to 390, MY BABY!"
I had a 777 bid last year and weasled my way out of it after recognising some of the names on the First Officer roster list.
I just cannot do it all by myself any more.
However, things change when they are in their late thirties and have their babies....In our airline they park themself on the widebodies, don't keep current, and most are adamant that they no longer want to be here but want to be home with their kids.
A couple of trips ago JFK is departing RW 31. There is a T-Procedure called "Track the centerline for 5 DME climb to 1500 feet turn left to Colts Neck VOR."
I tell my crew in the T/O briefing we are not going to comply with this. I see no reason to fly towards tall buildings when I can go over the water, dump fuel, and come back to land. And no way am I going to try to explain to the FAA why I passed a perfectly good airport (Newark) on the way to Colts Neck on one engine and didn't land.
The girl sez you must comply.
I say no, and explain why and how the obstacle clearance path is developed. In closing I say "You should read the Advisory Circular about this. It will answer a lot of your questions.
She replies, "I have two kids, and no time for this job."
(All of this was for naught, tho, talked to engineering and found out the T-Procedure was their to avoid a no fly zone after 9/11 which was no longer in effect....)
And don't even let me start with the pregnat F/0 who, when I asked for a step climb from FL 35 to FL 39 said "We can't climb to 390, MY BABY!"
I had a 777 bid last year and weasled my way out of it after recognising some of the names on the First Officer roster list.
I just cannot do it all by myself any more.
Moderator
In this place of many flying schools close together there are two of us lady CFIs and nine gent CFIs. I have never sensed any difference in the way myself and the other lady are treated compared to the guys by others or amongst ourselves. Nor are we expected to wash up the coffee cups after CFI meetings. The local independant ATO is a lady. There are a couple of ladies in the tower, and the airport manager is a lady. Maybe we're all too busy getting on with our jobs to notice prejudice and discrimination, or maybe there simply isn't any.
Perception of prejudice and discrimination can become a self fulfilling prophesy IMHO.
Sorry to the girls who don't agree with me.
Perception of prejudice and discrimination can become a self fulfilling prophesy IMHO.
Sorry to the girls who don't agree with me.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A-V-8R
This was the point I made afew days ago,1 or 2 bad apples we still all get the blame. So its up to us to try to get it right and convince our fellow ladies they have to take the heat.
Just as an aside I didn't think pregnant ladies were allowed to fly because of the dangers of radiation or does this only apply in the UK.
I am sorry you only seem to have encountered the "bad apples" I am sure most of you would agree they are becoming more and more rare and long may that continue.
Whirlybird hope you have a nice time in Russia, but I suspect this will run and run
:o
:o
This was the point I made afew days ago,1 or 2 bad apples we still all get the blame. So its up to us to try to get it right and convince our fellow ladies they have to take the heat.
Just as an aside I didn't think pregnant ladies were allowed to fly because of the dangers of radiation or does this only apply in the UK.
I am sorry you only seem to have encountered the "bad apples" I am sure most of you would agree they are becoming more and more rare and long may that continue.
Whirlybird hope you have a nice time in Russia, but I suspect this will run and run
:o
:o
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Charlie Foxtrot India,
I know a similar flying school in the UK. The owner/f/w CFI is female, as is the helicopter CFI and one of the other f/w instructors. It's the only UK flying school I've ever walked into where I've felt completely at home, and just been treated normally (in the US I found much less prejudice, as I've said before). That fact is proof, if I needed it, that I wasn't imagining the strange reactions I get in every other flying school. I daresay when an organisation gets to the point that women are not a minority, they become accepted. This particular flying school has a 50:50 male/female student ratio too. I could speculate as to why - do the women get recommended, no they not get put off when they come along, or what? I've no idea.
What do you mean: "Perception of prejudice and discrimination can become a self fulfilling prophecy"? That we're perceiving it when it's not there? That we should pretend it isn't there when it is? That we should keep quiet about it and be nice - the traditional female role when such things occur?
I think there have been enough personal experiences posted here - and enough prejudice! - for it to be clear that it's there. And as I think I've said, being the sort of person who says it as I find it, I can't see any reason to be different and keep quiet about this. Yes, I know that in itself may make me unpopular. The upfront aggressive bitch - who if she was male would be perceived as strong and masterful. I've heard it, and I don't care. Because if the price of acceptance is being a sweet acquiescent woman - no way, that's far too high a price to pay!!!!
I know a similar flying school in the UK. The owner/f/w CFI is female, as is the helicopter CFI and one of the other f/w instructors. It's the only UK flying school I've ever walked into where I've felt completely at home, and just been treated normally (in the US I found much less prejudice, as I've said before). That fact is proof, if I needed it, that I wasn't imagining the strange reactions I get in every other flying school. I daresay when an organisation gets to the point that women are not a minority, they become accepted. This particular flying school has a 50:50 male/female student ratio too. I could speculate as to why - do the women get recommended, no they not get put off when they come along, or what? I've no idea.
What do you mean: "Perception of prejudice and discrimination can become a self fulfilling prophecy"? That we're perceiving it when it's not there? That we should pretend it isn't there when it is? That we should keep quiet about it and be nice - the traditional female role when such things occur?
I think there have been enough personal experiences posted here - and enough prejudice! - for it to be clear that it's there. And as I think I've said, being the sort of person who says it as I find it, I can't see any reason to be different and keep quiet about this. Yes, I know that in itself may make me unpopular. The upfront aggressive bitch - who if she was male would be perceived as strong and masterful. I've heard it, and I don't care. Because if the price of acceptance is being a sweet acquiescent woman - no way, that's far too high a price to pay!!!!
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hollywood
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting debate.
At the risk of being shot down, it's the big companies that do no one (especially girls) any favours. In their obsession with being PC and making the numbers look good, they tinker with the system.
My company has different standards in the cadet apptitude tests for men and women. Note different, not easier! Something about recognising the different qualities of both. ie generally men do better in the hand eye stuff than women and vice versa for the communication element. What a load of rubbish. Either you pass a set standard, which spots the apptitude for airline flying, or you don't, man or woman. Unfortunately with the standards as they were, not enough women were getting through the door. OK we'll just "adjust" the results then.
This does the majority of females no favours, because you end up with people in the system who are not up to it. Cue, throw cash at the problem, and just give them all the training it takes. Training your average bloke probably wouldn't get. End result women have to end up "proving themselves" for another 20 years.
At the risk of being shot down, it's the big companies that do no one (especially girls) any favours. In their obsession with being PC and making the numbers look good, they tinker with the system.
My company has different standards in the cadet apptitude tests for men and women. Note different, not easier! Something about recognising the different qualities of both. ie generally men do better in the hand eye stuff than women and vice versa for the communication element. What a load of rubbish. Either you pass a set standard, which spots the apptitude for airline flying, or you don't, man or woman. Unfortunately with the standards as they were, not enough women were getting through the door. OK we'll just "adjust" the results then.
This does the majority of females no favours, because you end up with people in the system who are not up to it. Cue, throw cash at the problem, and just give them all the training it takes. Training your average bloke probably wouldn't get. End result women have to end up "proving themselves" for another 20 years.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: 38N
Posts: 356
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lightning rods up and grounded. Contact!
(disclaimer, sort of: - the following all derives from long wanderings through the woods of neurobiology while on a Faustian crusade to understand how one can make machines think.....)
It's all in the whizzer. That's right. The Whizzer. Never overlook the obvious.
From the earliest moments of animate existence, the body trains the mind. In the course of doing what they are evolved to do, limbs, muscles, surfaces and appendages communicate with the central nervous system in evolving multi-path feedback loops to develop the dialogues of control and command that allow for coordinated movement and, ultimately, ballet.
One of the first self-actualizing experiences of a newborn baby boy is writing his name in the general direction of the sky (ergo ad astra, per asperem?) with his gender-specific nozzle. His twin sister receives less validation for the same performance, for lack of equivalent flow dynamics. And so thus, if not earlier in the womb, they launch on divergent tracks in regard to further training their nascent conceptual faculties in greater and lesser degrees of spatial awareness.
By the age of four or 5, the little boys are busy decorating snowbanks, throwing spears and rocks, shooting arrows, slingshots, and imaginary cannons. They are climbing up and down and falling off things at an enourmous rate, developing the intuitive complex senses of spatial geometry, gravity, and physical cause and effect. At the same age the girls are more commonly pushed (by their mommies) into staying clean, playing with dolls, arranging things into neat and orderly sets and piles and groups of things, and doing rhythmic, repetitive, extrinsically bounded activities such as dance and 'play' acting.
The inherent physical proclivities toward divergence in spatial and physical cause-effect reasoning are accelerated by nurturing methods from the preceeding generation of females who raise - one might note - both genders, but who undoubtedly have more hope for the girls and more resignation that "boys will be boys". As the physio-intellectual seeds planted in early life grow into adulthood, the patterns thus embedded become increasingly difficult - but never impossible - to modify.
So, in the biological universe, the hardware determines how the software 'needs' to work. Habits follow, and personalities color in to make it all seem somehow consistent.
-o-
One can expect that Seriph's broad understanding of this topic comes from intense contemplation of his own......experience.
Last edited by arcniz; 12th Sep 2002 at 19:05.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm afraid Arcniz that the body / environment does not train the mind as you suggest. This has been well established for some time. In fact the male / female brains develop quite differently and that is a simple matter of fact. Not better or worse but differently, giving each strengths and weakness' in different areas.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One thing pilots find hard to understand is that someone could be absolutely not interested in flying an airplane. I realised that many regard at F/A as people who were not smart enough to fly and got into the airplane through the back door.
Not that I get bored in the cockpit, not even wanting to do the landing there, as someone said. I enjoy paying a visit there. Mostr of my friends are pilots. We talk "shop", and I never get bored about it.
But I NEVER ever wanted to fly an aircraft! What I like about flying, is not what pilots do. I personally know I would be bored to death. Like if you are a painter, you may like photograpy but still your thing is something else.
Not that I think that women who want to be pilots are not discriminated: they are, in some places and at various degrees. I also think that some may be influenced by the social pressure on them. Where I work there are many more than I was used to see in other companies, maybe because there is less discrimination (even if according to the unions there is still a lot of work to be done).
Not that I get bored in the cockpit, not even wanting to do the landing there, as someone said. I enjoy paying a visit there. Mostr of my friends are pilots. We talk "shop", and I never get bored about it.
But I NEVER ever wanted to fly an aircraft! What I like about flying, is not what pilots do. I personally know I would be bored to death. Like if you are a painter, you may like photograpy but still your thing is something else.
Not that I think that women who want to be pilots are not discriminated: they are, in some places and at various degrees. I also think that some may be influenced by the social pressure on them. Where I work there are many more than I was used to see in other companies, maybe because there is less discrimination (even if according to the unions there is still a lot of work to be done).
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: hoschton, GA, USA
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flower, I'm not sure if the rules regarding flying while pregnant are covered by the FAA or are my own carriers rules.
It used to be that the moment you were found pregant at this company you were grounded. Generally you used up your sick leave, then vacation, then no pay.
Then a New York based F/O filed for 55% medical disability pay during her pregnancy. She claimed pregnancy was a physical disability; here in this country you cannot discriminate in any way against disabilities. The Company then gave her a job teaching CLR to Flight Attendents. (Which in this case was like putting Dracula in charge of the Blood Bank.)
I'm not sure if she drew full pay or 55% pay for that, though I suspect full pay as they could use her for something and if they paid her 55% she would have stayed home.
I believe now the process is a grounding for the first trimester (To avoid fetus development problems) and a grounding during the last trimester.
Somewhere there is more information in the company website, when I return home I'll try to find it if you indicate you are interested in more.
It used to be that the moment you were found pregant at this company you were grounded. Generally you used up your sick leave, then vacation, then no pay.
Then a New York based F/O filed for 55% medical disability pay during her pregnancy. She claimed pregnancy was a physical disability; here in this country you cannot discriminate in any way against disabilities. The Company then gave her a job teaching CLR to Flight Attendents. (Which in this case was like putting Dracula in charge of the Blood Bank.)
I'm not sure if she drew full pay or 55% pay for that, though I suspect full pay as they could use her for something and if they paid her 55% she would have stayed home.
I believe now the process is a grounding for the first trimester (To avoid fetus development problems) and a grounding during the last trimester.
Somewhere there is more information in the company website, when I return home I'll try to find it if you indicate you are interested in more.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: 38N
Posts: 356
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm afraid Arcniz that the body / environment does not train the mind as you suggest. This has been well established for some time. In fact the male / female brains develop quite differently and that is a simple matter of fact. Not better or worse but differently, giving each strengths and weakness' in different areas.
Perhaps you can find a more recent translation of the Bible.
Rainbow Chaser
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: At home, mostly!
Posts: 608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fundamental reason I couldn't become a professional pilot is my eyesight fails to meet the required standard and... as I was growing up in the era of Hamble, and got the prospectus (before I figured out about my eyesight) I knew I wouldn't be able to get the scientific A-levels required for entry (unlike a v good air cadet friend of mine at the time who "did" Hamble and is now a BA captain)... it took me so long to get into the air privately 'cos I just didn't have the means!! Oddly enough, it was only when I started in banking in the mid '80s, after a couple of other "jobs", that I found I have no problem with maths (calculating bond yields etc) .. it was all a question of having it explained properly!!!
Anyway, I have always adored being airborne and always will - especially in pursuit of my circular rainbows (brockenspectres)
I also wish to thank the many "front seat of house" folks who, in the time when it was possible, let me join them in the best seat when I was flying as pax but asked to visit - I was often there for take off and nearly always for landings!!! BRILLIANT!!
Anyway, I have always adored being airborne and always will - especially in pursuit of my circular rainbows (brockenspectres)
I also wish to thank the many "front seat of house" folks who, in the time when it was possible, let me join them in the best seat when I was flying as pax but asked to visit - I was often there for take off and nearly always for landings!!! BRILLIANT!!
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm afraid it's you who needs to get up to date Arcniz. It is obvious to any who wish to objectively observe, that there are significant differences twixt the sexes, reflected in every society and culture on the globe. One only has to witness that 95% of women can't reverse or park a car, it's not their forte and most don't give a damn about it, only a few girlies on these pages and yourself it would seem get wound up.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: 38N
Posts: 356
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Carruthers, kin of Seriph are ye? Fresh off the moor?
This present discussion devolves from some moderately thought -out assertions I made in regard to neuro - biological ontogeny. So far, nobody has popped up who comes close to my actual expertise there - sadly.
Thank you for providing such a well-silhoutted target in regard to the recitation of your expectations for something more than half of all humanity. I wonder if your dog, Puck, agrees?
Point number one, vis-a-vis your heartfelt but less-than-visionary (or is that missionary?) position is:
Vive la difference!
Point number two: In 1902 , roughly 100 percent of men AND women 'could not reverse or park a car'. What you perceive as distaff incompetence might only be a signal of their lack of access to training and the necessary equipment in your tiny time frame of reference. Over the 100K years since your kin, and maybe mine, commenced their long weaning from bannanas, a hundred counts for nought. I rather like bannanas, though. Lots of potassium.
FWIW, I prefer to associate with the smartest, most creative and most skillful women I can find. It makes for more interesting relations, as may be appropriate, and improves the quality of the other 99.992 percent of life as well.
Have you, perhaps, been inclined to cut a leg off Puck because he might occasionally outrun you on the moor? Not likely. It's a shame to cripple a right dog. So why would you wish high performance from your four-legged pal, yet less than the max from your fronty ones having only two?
This present discussion devolves from some moderately thought -out assertions I made in regard to neuro - biological ontogeny. So far, nobody has popped up who comes close to my actual expertise there - sadly.
Thank you for providing such a well-silhoutted target in regard to the recitation of your expectations for something more than half of all humanity. I wonder if your dog, Puck, agrees?
Point number one, vis-a-vis your heartfelt but less-than-visionary (or is that missionary?) position is:
Vive la difference!
Point number two: In 1902 , roughly 100 percent of men AND women 'could not reverse or park a car'. What you perceive as distaff incompetence might only be a signal of their lack of access to training and the necessary equipment in your tiny time frame of reference. Over the 100K years since your kin, and maybe mine, commenced their long weaning from bannanas, a hundred counts for nought. I rather like bannanas, though. Lots of potassium.
FWIW, I prefer to associate with the smartest, most creative and most skillful women I can find. It makes for more interesting relations, as may be appropriate, and improves the quality of the other 99.992 percent of life as well.
Have you, perhaps, been inclined to cut a leg off Puck because he might occasionally outrun you on the moor? Not likely. It's a shame to cripple a right dog. So why would you wish high performance from your four-legged pal, yet less than the max from your fronty ones having only two?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Carruthers
Good grief! You put yourself about a bit! Very bold statement, perhaps even slightly true, but not 95% - and it certainly doesn't only apply to women. But then this debate contains a good level of exaggeration, which leads me to think it is simply a way of pressing home an invalid point.
I haven't yet seen a GOOD reason WHY this industry, and others, fail to attract more women. Who or what causes that do you think?
One only has to witness that 95% of women can't reverse or park a car, it's not their forte and most don't give a damn about it
Good grief! You put yourself about a bit! Very bold statement, perhaps even slightly true, but not 95% - and it certainly doesn't only apply to women. But then this debate contains a good level of exaggeration, which leads me to think it is simply a way of pressing home an invalid point.
I haven't yet seen a GOOD reason WHY this industry, and others, fail to attract more women. Who or what causes that do you think?
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Carruthers , you have obviously decided that 50% of the population are irrelevant to society ,maybe some can't reverse cars who cares if they can or not .
I am unable to do many things ,I also possess skills I am sure that you do not and vice versa.
Our industry needs to attract a diverse group of people to its ranks,as we serve the whole world population not just one particular group.
As well as not attracting many women we still have very few people in the UK from different ethnic groups, why is this?
Perhaps aviation is seen as elitist, it is certainly very expensive without sponsership.
Career guidance at schools and universities has little mention of Flying ,be it up front or down the back of the aircraft.Air Traffic and engineering doesn,t even appear to exist.
When we are seen as a worthy career option in the eyes of the education system then perhaps there will be a more diverse selection of people be it male or female.
This can only benefit us all.
I am unable to do many things ,I also possess skills I am sure that you do not and vice versa.
Our industry needs to attract a diverse group of people to its ranks,as we serve the whole world population not just one particular group.
As well as not attracting many women we still have very few people in the UK from different ethnic groups, why is this?
Perhaps aviation is seen as elitist, it is certainly very expensive without sponsership.
Career guidance at schools and universities has little mention of Flying ,be it up front or down the back of the aircraft.Air Traffic and engineering doesn,t even appear to exist.
When we are seen as a worthy career option in the eyes of the education system then perhaps there will be a more diverse selection of people be it male or female.
This can only benefit us all.