Smoking on the flight-deck
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Very Interesting Thread!!
As an occassional SLF and pilot I thought I would do a very strange thing. I will actually ask Ryanair, as a concerned SLF, wether smoking is permitted on the flight deck!!!
So - into the web site to find a way of contacting Ryanair to ask this very reasonable question.
Well 2 hours later and 3 international calls from South Africa, I learn that it is VERY DIFFICULT to complain or even ask Ryanair a question. The web site will tell you just about everything up to frying eggs on the wing, but to make a complaint???
Anyway it appears the only way to ask the question is by writting by post to HQ in Dublin. No email. No fax. No phone call.
Write and pop it in the ole post box.
So that is what I shall do. Look for my reply on Pprune in about 2 months if at all!!
As an occassional SLF and pilot I thought I would do a very strange thing. I will actually ask Ryanair, as a concerned SLF, wether smoking is permitted on the flight deck!!!
So - into the web site to find a way of contacting Ryanair to ask this very reasonable question.
Well 2 hours later and 3 international calls from South Africa, I learn that it is VERY DIFFICULT to complain or even ask Ryanair a question. The web site will tell you just about everything up to frying eggs on the wing, but to make a complaint???
Anyway it appears the only way to ask the question is by writting by post to HQ in Dublin. No email. No fax. No phone call.
Write and pop it in the ole post box.
So that is what I shall do. Look for my reply on Pprune in about 2 months if at all!!
Last edited by Flying Bean; 4th Oct 2003 at 21:06.
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Amazing series of replies on these 8 pages. I find it hard to understand why anyone would put up with smoking in the cockpit if there is a policy forbidding it. If you are a f/o or s/o use your CRM to explain the situation(stop or I am leaving at the next opportunity) to them and if they do begin to smoke then suffer through that flight and when the next landing takes place get off and call flt ops/crew schedules and asked to be replaced as smoke in the cockpit brings about allergies that may impact the safety of the flight. If it the f/o or s/o that smokes regardless inform him he will be removed from the flight at the next opportunity. In my 36 years career it has been my experience that those who flaunt one rule usually disregard others as well. Some of the SOPA for example, that can result in a lessening of flight safety. People who smoke in the cockpit against the policy are saying a lot about themselves, their character and how they deal with life in general....dishonestly. Get them out of the cockpit if they insist on smoking. I know nothing about Ryanair but I cannot imagine they would fire someone for removing themselves from flight duty because their abilities are compromised by a smoker in the cockpit.
Not often that I find myself agreeing 100% with a post from your side of the pond, michael744, but you're absolutely correct on this.
Ever thought of standing for President? Your country would greatly benefit from leadership with such positive messages!
Ever thought of standing for President? Your country would greatly benefit from leadership with such positive messages!
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In my 36 years career it has been my experience that those who flaunt one rule usually disregard others as well.
Surely this is the central issue in this whole discussion.
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I know nothing about Ryanair but I cannot imagine they would fire someone for removing themselves from flight duty because their abilities are compromised by a smoker in the cockpit.
People have been fired by MOL for less!
Corrected for spelling error!
People have been fired by MOL for less!
Corrected for spelling error!
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I'm assuming that "behind_the_second_midland" and the other poster who criticized 'Andu' for his remarks are both smokers who find it unreasonable when people object to sharing their filthy habit in the close confines of a cockpit or in a restaurant.
After suffering all too many (like 'Andu', usually young female) FAs who insist on smoking while I'm trying to eat, I'm with you 100%, 'Andu'. I've asked a couple if they'd think it strange if someone wrapped a belt around their arm and produced a needle and started hitting up at the dinner table.
After suffering all too many (like 'Andu', usually young female) FAs who insist on smoking while I'm trying to eat, I'm with you 100%, 'Andu'. I've asked a couple if they'd think it strange if someone wrapped a belt around their arm and produced a needle and started hitting up at the dinner table.
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MTOW,
while I agree that 'suffering' the company of young, female FAs whilst eating at a restaurant must be a form of living hell
I don't think this thread is primarily about smokers. There are many habits which others find annoying (intolerant whingeing for example). As far as I'm concerned the CRM issues are more important -the Captain who seems to think that SOPs are for other people and the FO who's too weak to question him.
Strafer (ex-smoker).
while I agree that 'suffering' the company of young, female FAs whilst eating at a restaurant must be a form of living hell
I don't think this thread is primarily about smokers. There are many habits which others find annoying (intolerant whingeing for example). As far as I'm concerned the CRM issues are more important -the Captain who seems to think that SOPs are for other people and the FO who's too weak to question him.Strafer (ex-smoker).
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I'd have to agree with you, 'strafer', that my post wasn't addressing the main point of the thread. But I was answering the posts of the two people who took exception to 'Andu's' comment.
As for 'suffering' the company of young females at dinner on overnights, I think too many people writing in on these serious issues write from the life they'd like to think they enjoy as (virtual?) airline pilots rather from any experience they actually 'enjoy' in the real world. Someone smoking while you try to eat a meal is pain in the proverbial, no matter how eye-pleasing the package that someone may (or may not) come in might be.
Back to the point of the thread, I agree that the most junior FO should be able to complain. However, I remember all too clearly from my time as an FO that too many companies have an unofficial corporate culture that inhibits a junior crewmember from making a valid complaint, particularly over a matter as emotive as smoking. Anyone who doesn't believe that should only take a lok at how many posts this thread has generated.
As for 'suffering' the company of young females at dinner on overnights, I think too many people writing in on these serious issues write from the life they'd like to think they enjoy as (virtual?) airline pilots rather from any experience they actually 'enjoy' in the real world. Someone smoking while you try to eat a meal is pain in the proverbial, no matter how eye-pleasing the package that someone may (or may not) come in might be.
Back to the point of the thread, I agree that the most junior FO should be able to complain. However, I remember all too clearly from my time as an FO that too many companies have an unofficial corporate culture that inhibits a junior crewmember from making a valid complaint, particularly over a matter as emotive as smoking. Anyone who doesn't believe that should only take a lok at how many posts this thread has generated.
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I think you've hit the nail on the head MTOW, the point about
is, I think, the main point of concern. This is something which has contributed to crashes in the past and unless addressed, will do so in the future.
Ps the level of 'how eye-pleasing the package that someone may (or may not) come in might be' does make a difference to me. But then I'm easily led.
companies have an unofficial corporate culture that inhibits a junior crewmember from making a valid complaint
Ps the level of 'how eye-pleasing the package that someone may (or may not) come in might be' does make a difference to me. But then I'm easily led.
Smoking Doubles Risk of Heart Attack
Smoking ban good for the heart: study
Last Updated Wed, 02 Apr 2003 11:56:15
Copyright CBC
CHICAGO - Heart attacks in a Montana city were cut in half after an indoor smoking ban came into effect.
Dr. Richard Sargent and Dr. Robert Shepard presented their study in Chicago at a meeting of the American College of Cardiology.
The doctors say their study was the first to investigate what happens to public health when people stop smoking in public places.
"I'm glad someone finally noticed it," said Shepard. "This has probably been going on in every other community with a smoking ban."
The city of Helena, pop. 26,000, adopted a smoking ban last June and was in effect until December, when a legal challenge forced town council to drop the ban.
In that period, hospital admissions for heart attacks dropped from seven every month to three.
Both doctors are strong advocates of smoking bans. They say the Helena experience offers a clear indication that the change reduces the risk of heart attacks for smokers and non-smokers.
The American Heart Association says 35,000 non-smokers die each year from the effects of second-hand smoke. Smoke can trigger heart attacks because it raises blood pressure, increasing the risk of blood clots.
The study found:
The doctors tracked heart attacks over the past four years in the area and compared it to the smoking ban period.
Shepard says the study needs to be replicated in a larger city like New York. The state of New York just imposed a ban on indoor smoking.
Last Updated Wed, 02 Apr 2003 11:56:15
Copyright CBC
CHICAGO - Heart attacks in a Montana city were cut in half after an indoor smoking ban came into effect.
Dr. Richard Sargent and Dr. Robert Shepard presented their study in Chicago at a meeting of the American College of Cardiology.
The doctors say their study was the first to investigate what happens to public health when people stop smoking in public places.
"I'm glad someone finally noticed it," said Shepard. "This has probably been going on in every other community with a smoking ban."
The city of Helena, pop. 26,000, adopted a smoking ban last June and was in effect until December, when a legal challenge forced town council to drop the ban.
In that period, hospital admissions for heart attacks dropped from seven every month to three.
Both doctors are strong advocates of smoking bans. They say the Helena experience offers a clear indication that the change reduces the risk of heart attacks for smokers and non-smokers.
The American Heart Association says 35,000 non-smokers die each year from the effects of second-hand smoke. Smoke can trigger heart attacks because it raises blood pressure, increasing the risk of blood clots.
The study found:
- heart attacks dropped 75 per cent for smokers
- 67 per cent for former smokers
- 50 per cent for smokers
The doctors tracked heart attacks over the past four years in the area and compared it to the smoking ban period.
Shepard says the study needs to be replicated in a larger city like New York. The state of New York just imposed a ban on indoor smoking.
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I'm an ex-smoker so have no agenda to push, but the above report is not medically sound.
1) Smoking might do a whole lot of nasty things to your body, but one thing it doesn't do is affect blood pressure.
2) A survey based on a drop from 7 to 3, is no kind of survey at all, especially when the biggest cause of heart attacks in the US (and UK) is diet (or lack thereof).
3) Smoking can contribute to heart disease over time, but accidently sniffing someone's second-hand Marlboro will not give you a heart attack. A six month public space ban would make no difference to anyone (medically, that is).
Beware of the banners. They're not doing it to help your health, they're doing it beacuse they don't like you enjoying it. And what you like, may well be next.
1) Smoking might do a whole lot of nasty things to your body, but one thing it doesn't do is affect blood pressure.
2) A survey based on a drop from 7 to 3, is no kind of survey at all, especially when the biggest cause of heart attacks in the US (and UK) is diet (or lack thereof).
3) Smoking can contribute to heart disease over time, but accidently sniffing someone's second-hand Marlboro will not give you a heart attack. A six month public space ban would make no difference to anyone (medically, that is).
Beware of the banners. They're not doing it to help your health, they're doing it beacuse they don't like you enjoying it. And what you like, may well be next.
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Well all this has been very interesting but my hopes of being able to work in a smoke-free flight-deck have come to nothing! The main culprits have totally ignored the restated ban and so far FR have done nothing to enforce it! I think it will need smoke alarms on the flight-deck connected to the FDR for any real change. Oh well, better buy my own oxygen bottle and mask! Thanks to all my supporters!
Strafer,
Agreed that a drop from 7 to 3 from one month to the next would have limited statistical significance, but when a monthly rate falls like that over a six month period the statistical significance is major.
Agreed that a drop from 7 to 3 from one month to the next would have limited statistical significance, but when a monthly rate falls like that over a six month period the statistical significance is major.
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"Well all this has been very interesting but my hopes of being able to work in a smoke-free flight-deck have come to nothing!"
Have you actually tried to do something about this fmc_apprentice other than moan on an anonymous forum?
Have you actually tried to do something about this fmc_apprentice other than moan on an anonymous forum?
Life's too short for ironing
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Gripping reading!
Flying bean - Good on you! I guess there's no answer so far?
FMC - how about writing a CHIRP? I've no idea how effective they are, but in the long, cold winters here, they make for almost as good reading as pprune!
I sympathise - its a horrible situation to be in, but the smoking pilots are breaking the rules just as much as the drinking, or late arriving, or non-SOP ones. Tough decision, but if you are going to make a stand sooner is better than later. Are there any other senior captains whose advice you can seek?
Flying bean - Good on you! I guess there's no answer so far?
FMC - how about writing a CHIRP? I've no idea how effective they are, but in the long, cold winters here, they make for almost as good reading as pprune!
I sympathise - its a horrible situation to be in, but the smoking pilots are breaking the rules just as much as the drinking, or late arriving, or non-SOP ones. Tough decision, but if you are going to make a stand sooner is better than later. Are there any other senior captains whose advice you can seek?
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fmc_app, you say you'll have to get your own oxy bottle. Why? Use the aircraft (crew) bottle and mask every time the idiot(s) light up and then explain if asked why they the crew oxy has to be replenished as often as it does. I can guarantee the accountants will buy into that argument very quickly when an aircraft is delayed on turnaround for oxy replenishment.
This of course conveniently avoids the rather important safety issue of someone smoking within two feet of an oxy mask in use. (I used to fly with a fellow who had once removed his oxy mask to take a quick drag on a coffin nail. He had a very spectacular burn scar covering half his face and very nearly lost an eye in the explosion that proved oxygen and naked flames don't go well together.)
You seem to feel strongly on this matter. If that's the case, the fact is, it isn't going to go away until you make a very public stand WITHIN your airline on the issue. If you're not willing to make such a stand, stop complaining and suffer on in silence.
This of course conveniently avoids the rather important safety issue of someone smoking within two feet of an oxy mask in use. (I used to fly with a fellow who had once removed his oxy mask to take a quick drag on a coffin nail. He had a very spectacular burn scar covering half his face and very nearly lost an eye in the explosion that proved oxygen and naked flames don't go well together.)
You seem to feel strongly on this matter. If that's the case, the fact is, it isn't going to go away until you make a very public stand WITHIN your airline on the issue. If you're not willing to make such a stand, stop complaining and suffer on in silence.