Smoking on the flight-deck
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 59
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WizofOZ,
F/O Duggan, certainly had more than just the correct channels to use as an option as she is the ex-chief pilot's daughter. She however chose not to use either the proper channels or direct channels, but instead made a mess of the whole thing. She was not correct in the way she dealt with the issue. I am not questioning her reasoning, nor her decision to stand up. If she felt harassed, then great she should have gone the right way about it, and in her case especialy she would have had more options available. The fact that she is no longer with us, is because of the way she went about it and the fact that she left the company no options. It is an unfortunate matter, and I am not about to spill out all the details on pprune as this thread is about smoking on flight deck and the company's stance on smoking and not anything else.
JP
F/O Duggan, certainly had more than just the correct channels to use as an option as she is the ex-chief pilot's daughter. She however chose not to use either the proper channels or direct channels, but instead made a mess of the whole thing. She was not correct in the way she dealt with the issue. I am not questioning her reasoning, nor her decision to stand up. If she felt harassed, then great she should have gone the right way about it, and in her case especialy she would have had more options available. The fact that she is no longer with us, is because of the way she went about it and the fact that she left the company no options. It is an unfortunate matter, and I am not about to spill out all the details on pprune as this thread is about smoking on flight deck and the company's stance on smoking and not anything else.
JP
Paxing All Over The World
Firstly - I am pax and a non-smoker.
I have ignored this thread, as I presumed that it was about the problem of someone having an occasional smoke on the flight deck. Today, a friend who is giving up smoking after 30 years needed some help on the phone, due to the severe difficulties of giving up this drug. I noticed the thread was now very long and decided to read it. The lot.
To say that I was astounded that FR pilots were smoking on the flight deck is an understatement. I was astounded and considered it another reason not to travel with FR.
Plastic Bug
Yes we do. If given free rein, humans do not always do the decent thing and cigarettes contain many drugs and the medics admit that they do not know all the affects that they have on the brain and body.
rananim
As some will have heard me comment before - it's the same in any profession/business these days. I have been in telecommunications for 25 years and cannot believe some of the silly little boys that we have running around with the word 'manager' on their chest. But that is the way of the world ... paying less money and watching the monkeys.
I am delighted to hear that FR are responding and their replies to FB were encouraging. The further news that pilots breaking the regulations about smoking have been dismissed, is the first postive thing I have heard about FR all year. Welcome news and congratulations to the company
I have ignored this thread, as I presumed that it was about the problem of someone having an occasional smoke on the flight deck. Today, a friend who is giving up smoking after 30 years needed some help on the phone, due to the severe difficulties of giving up this drug. I noticed the thread was now very long and decided to read it. The lot.
To say that I was astounded that FR pilots were smoking on the flight deck is an understatement. I was astounded and considered it another reason not to travel with FR.
Plastic Bug
If two people in an enclosed enviroment can't get along and work out who smokes and who doesn't, that's too bad. We do not need a law to mandate behaviour.
rananim
We've got some real ninnies in this profession you know. Didnt used to be like that and its a damn shame.
I am delighted to hear that FR are responding and their replies to FB were encouraging. The further news that pilots breaking the regulations about smoking have been dismissed, is the first postive thing I have heard about FR all year. Welcome news and congratulations to the company
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I say this from the point of view of a smoker, but one who chooses to smoke away from others because I know how unpleasant it can be.
I cannot believe the level of vitriol and plain rudeness from some of the contributors to this thread. It is always the way.....people make comments anonymously that they would not consider making when face to face; which generally means the debate descends into a thoroughly unpleasant spectacle fuelled by the anonymity allowed via the internet.
Now that I have said that I will make my point regarding this thread....
FMC_Apprentice may have been right to elicit the views of his/her professional peers via this website because, as Danny's welcome intro states, professional pilots (or indeed any professionals whose job entails a great deal of travel) do not have the outlet that a typical office bound worker may have i.e. discussion with colleagues sat at the next desk. I do not believe, however, that he/she had the right to bring to the discussion the name of his/her company. This action inevitably leads to a poor impression of the company and, by association, his/her colleagues. (I do not work for the company in question incidentally).
In another scenario, similar evidence of lack of judgment could actually be more damaging for an individual's career than any perceived threat by directly confronting the individuals concerned or by whistle blowing through the appropriate channels. If a individual feels they are unable to address their legitimate health concerns directly then perhaps they should reconsider their chosen career path; similarly if the same individual is also unable to use an established anonymous reporting scheme, then again they should perhaps reconsider their options.
Now to the specific subject of smoking which seems to have caused the most ire.....
As I said at the beginning, I smoke though I chose to smoke away from others if they find it unpleasant. If I ask someone if they mind if I smoke and they say "Yes" then I do not; if they say "No" then I do, simple as that. If someone does not have the gumption to answer a straightforward question truthfully then I will not concern myself to check back regularly every few minutes to ensure their continued abeyance.
Smoking in public places is an entirely different matter....did you notice the word PUBLIC. To the best of my knowledge I still possess some free will in the determination of my particular path through life. Therefore I chose to smoke, which is my right. If you are in a public place (bar, restaurant etc) which allows smoking, you cannot in all sincerity expect all around to accommodate your view on this subject and demand a totally smoke free environment. It is your right to either stay put/move away/leave the establishment entirely; nobody is forcing you to eat in a particular restaurant or drink in a certain bar.
Smoking (as yet) is not against the law and therefore the analogy with the Class A drug is pretty specious; the societal problems which are caused by such substances do in no way shape or form compare to the legal use of tobacco products in this country.
I cannot believe the level of vitriol and plain rudeness from some of the contributors to this thread. It is always the way.....people make comments anonymously that they would not consider making when face to face; which generally means the debate descends into a thoroughly unpleasant spectacle fuelled by the anonymity allowed via the internet.
Now that I have said that I will make my point regarding this thread....
FMC_Apprentice may have been right to elicit the views of his/her professional peers via this website because, as Danny's welcome intro states, professional pilots (or indeed any professionals whose job entails a great deal of travel) do not have the outlet that a typical office bound worker may have i.e. discussion with colleagues sat at the next desk. I do not believe, however, that he/she had the right to bring to the discussion the name of his/her company. This action inevitably leads to a poor impression of the company and, by association, his/her colleagues. (I do not work for the company in question incidentally).
In another scenario, similar evidence of lack of judgment could actually be more damaging for an individual's career than any perceived threat by directly confronting the individuals concerned or by whistle blowing through the appropriate channels. If a individual feels they are unable to address their legitimate health concerns directly then perhaps they should reconsider their chosen career path; similarly if the same individual is also unable to use an established anonymous reporting scheme, then again they should perhaps reconsider their options.
Now to the specific subject of smoking which seems to have caused the most ire.....
As I said at the beginning, I smoke though I chose to smoke away from others if they find it unpleasant. If I ask someone if they mind if I smoke and they say "Yes" then I do not; if they say "No" then I do, simple as that. If someone does not have the gumption to answer a straightforward question truthfully then I will not concern myself to check back regularly every few minutes to ensure their continued abeyance.
Smoking in public places is an entirely different matter....did you notice the word PUBLIC. To the best of my knowledge I still possess some free will in the determination of my particular path through life. Therefore I chose to smoke, which is my right. If you are in a public place (bar, restaurant etc) which allows smoking, you cannot in all sincerity expect all around to accommodate your view on this subject and demand a totally smoke free environment. It is your right to either stay put/move away/leave the establishment entirely; nobody is forcing you to eat in a particular restaurant or drink in a certain bar.
Smoking (as yet) is not against the law and therefore the analogy with the Class A drug is pretty specious; the societal problems which are caused by such substances do in no way shape or form compare to the legal use of tobacco products in this country.
Feet Dry,
Do you ask "Mind if I smoke" of people who are your direct subordinates, who rely on you to set the tone and enjoyment level of their working day, for whom you direct what their tasks will be (enjoyable or otherwise), and whom you potentialy have the power to advance or retard proffestionaly?
If so do you not agree it is grossly unfair to put a subordinate in this position, particularly when you are asking him if he will aquiese to you breaking a regulation? This is the position an FO is put if a captain asks such a question. After all, "Mind if I smoke?" is clearly a statement that "I want to smoke, are you going to object?". A lousy position to put a subordinate in.
Even asking is tantamount to harrassement.
As for your statements regarding public places, does your view extend to other anti-social activities? Swearing, talking loudly, having a strong body odour... My right as an individual to do as I please and if you don't like it, push off?
Do you ask "Mind if I smoke" of people who are your direct subordinates, who rely on you to set the tone and enjoyment level of their working day, for whom you direct what their tasks will be (enjoyable or otherwise), and whom you potentialy have the power to advance or retard proffestionaly?
If so do you not agree it is grossly unfair to put a subordinate in this position, particularly when you are asking him if he will aquiese to you breaking a regulation? This is the position an FO is put if a captain asks such a question. After all, "Mind if I smoke?" is clearly a statement that "I want to smoke, are you going to object?". A lousy position to put a subordinate in.
Even asking is tantamount to harrassement.
As for your statements regarding public places, does your view extend to other anti-social activities? Swearing, talking loudly, having a strong body odour... My right as an individual to do as I please and if you don't like it, push off?
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OK, to clarify some points....
If I ask an individual if they mind if I smoke, then that is exactly what that is...a question seeking either a positive or a negative response. I cannot evidently say the same for others who smoke. Now, I fully take your point that there are some who, for whatever reason, do not act responsibly in dealings with colleagues. To me this is a failure of company procedure in that the individual was allowed to ever occupy a position in which they find themselves able to treat subordinates in such ways. If a company has a standing order prohibiting a practice such as smoking, then that SO should be enforced.
I happen to pride myself in my ability to gauge a particular situation, and to deport myself accordingly. Therefore I would not put any subordinate (or other) in the position of feeling they should be complicit in any contravention of any regulation as you seem to imply. "Mind if I smoke?" is not a statement as far as I am concerned, it is a question; if you mind then say so.
Regarding other "anti-social" activities, according to Cancer Research UK the current level of those who smoke in the UK is one out of four people - 15million people who are all, therefore, anti-social. Swearing in public is already covered by various instruments (not least of which as a public order offence). Talking too loudly, well I might find it offensive but the person might be deaf; who am I to judge. Body-odour offensive? In the case of poor personal hygiene the person should be told; if it is due to a medical condition, I am certain any sufferer enjoys and relishes the prospect of causing offence every time they step out of the house. You may think I am being flippant, but I reiterate my previous point which was - smoking is not (yet) illegal in the good old United Kingdom. I am fully aware of my rights as a subject of this country, I also happen to be aware of my responsibilities to others around me; which is why if I ask someone if they mind if I smoke (which is my choice) they can either say yes or no (which is their choice).
If I ask an individual if they mind if I smoke, then that is exactly what that is...a question seeking either a positive or a negative response. I cannot evidently say the same for others who smoke. Now, I fully take your point that there are some who, for whatever reason, do not act responsibly in dealings with colleagues. To me this is a failure of company procedure in that the individual was allowed to ever occupy a position in which they find themselves able to treat subordinates in such ways. If a company has a standing order prohibiting a practice such as smoking, then that SO should be enforced.
I happen to pride myself in my ability to gauge a particular situation, and to deport myself accordingly. Therefore I would not put any subordinate (or other) in the position of feeling they should be complicit in any contravention of any regulation as you seem to imply. "Mind if I smoke?" is not a statement as far as I am concerned, it is a question; if you mind then say so.
Regarding other "anti-social" activities, according to Cancer Research UK the current level of those who smoke in the UK is one out of four people - 15million people who are all, therefore, anti-social. Swearing in public is already covered by various instruments (not least of which as a public order offence). Talking too loudly, well I might find it offensive but the person might be deaf; who am I to judge. Body-odour offensive? In the case of poor personal hygiene the person should be told; if it is due to a medical condition, I am certain any sufferer enjoys and relishes the prospect of causing offence every time they step out of the house. You may think I am being flippant, but I reiterate my previous point which was - smoking is not (yet) illegal in the good old United Kingdom. I am fully aware of my rights as a subject of this country, I also happen to be aware of my responsibilities to others around me; which is why if I ask someone if they mind if I smoke (which is my choice) they can either say yes or no (which is their choice).
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Zanzi's Bar
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If you are a true professional, you MUST be able to refrain from smoking onboard. As professionals we must put up with much worse restrictions than not smoking!
I smoke cigars since 7 years, before I used to do a pack and some a day. I stopped smoking on the deck since more than 5 years. I do on the average 10+ hours sectors. I don't even let my wife smoke, when she's along.
My first reason is it is not fair to other smokers on board. Forget rules and regulations. We, on the LHS, are not God to have the privilege of bending rules and embarrassing pax and colleagues.
I pity the guys that do it!
I smoke cigars since 7 years, before I used to do a pack and some a day. I stopped smoking on the deck since more than 5 years. I do on the average 10+ hours sectors. I don't even let my wife smoke, when she's along.
My first reason is it is not fair to other smokers on board. Forget rules and regulations. We, on the LHS, are not God to have the privilege of bending rules and embarrassing pax and colleagues.
I pity the guys that do it!
