Someone in China upping the ante
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Someone in China upping the ante
Got this today from an agency that I've had contact with:
"Dear Xxxx
I just wanted to update you that we are currently recruiting for A330 and B777 captains for a leading Chinese carrier that are now offering $17950 USD net per month in addition to offering a 6 weeks on 2 weeks off roster!
If you are interested, please would you email me back at your earliest convenience.
Kind Regards"
Hmmmmm, starting to make the Korean offer downright insulting! I hope they wakeup sometime soon about their pay.......
"Dear Xxxx
I just wanted to update you that we are currently recruiting for A330 and B777 captains for a leading Chinese carrier that are now offering $17950 USD net per month in addition to offering a 6 weeks on 2 weeks off roster!
If you are interested, please would you email me back at your earliest convenience.
Kind Regards"
Hmmmmm, starting to make the Korean offer downright insulting! I hope they wakeup sometime soon about their pay.......
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The pay is certainly a joke in KAL now. Their only leverage is the commuting arrangement which makes the Chinese 6 on 2 off sounds unbearable, for those with family. Although many are now more attracted by pay (and tax agreement for my case in having a almost 40% pay increase) to head westward.
Rumour from the mills was that don't expect any pay increase. Too many are still applying from everywhere, the Koreans will not be short of applicants, and that apparently, is their only tool to justify salary adjustment.
Rumour from the mills was that don't expect any pay increase. Too many are still applying from everywhere, the Koreans will not be short of applicants, and that apparently, is their only tool to justify salary adjustment.
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Any 6/2 gig is purely unbearable! Even if you are divorced, widowed and childless, retired, etc having to spend 6 weeks holed up in an apartment or hotel cubicle in a high density Asian city will certainly drive you nuts. Come on guys, get it into the heads of these airlines and their recruitment agencies...money need to be at least USD20,000 and a commuting arrangement of 2/2 ( weeks ) or 18/12 ( days ) with travel to/fro home base on company time in first class plus all the medical/life insurance benefits. The drop in the value of the greenback and its uncertain outlook certainly calls for something above USD20,000. Do not forget the need for compulsory retirement, end of contract bonuses. Wildly optimistic; no, I am not willing to prostitute for less.
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I am not willing to prostitute for less
Now, if you think that any carrier - anywhere - is going to agree to give you $+20,000 per month plus bonuses, and retirement, FOR PART-TIME, then you are simply crazy.
If that's the hand we force upon them, things will very quickly turn sadly against us. I've been in a "high density Asian city" for a very long time and there are some things that just won't fly - demands like that are just a few of them.
One fact is this. We are able to demand what we are WORTH! If we keep things reasonable, we can continue to receive that reasonable compensation for the foreseeable future.
Since you seem to be dreaming, I'll offer this little wake-up call, 5 digits monthly; 2 weeks off every 2 months; no taxes; international medical coverage; accommodation paid; and home on a regular basis, is actually reasonable.
Finally, I imagine that you're in Asia since your union at home made the same demands from your legacy carrier that you are now suggesting. Remember, that union subsequently put your airline out of business.
Get a grip, and either adapt, or go home and pick cotton for a living.
Last edited by PappyJ; 5th Jan 2012 at 09:59.
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Actually Molokai does have a valid point on the 6 on 2 off. Couple of reasons why I took it, firstly I don't have too many years left in my usable sag. Secondly, I do, actually have my own "set-up" in China that staying there for 6 weeks in a row is not gonna be unbearable for me.
3 from my same batch of interview, did not take it up despite the latest update of pay. The 6 weeks is too long to bear, and they openly expressed displeasure at multitude of discontent during our few days of interview in China.
One thing for sure, the general employer's attitude is really "you like it, take it, unhappy, we won't care less."
3 from my same batch of interview, did not take it up despite the latest update of pay. The 6 weeks is too long to bear, and they openly expressed displeasure at multitude of discontent during our few days of interview in China.
One thing for sure, the general employer's attitude is really "you like it, take it, unhappy, we won't care less."
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What Molokai suggested is something you all should strive for; I understand some Chinese airlines are actually moving towards USD20K with the understanding that the greenback is going to trend lower in the next few more years.
Commuting 6/2 will only work well if you are operating to your home base; for those who are going to be holed up in PEK, SHA or CAN for 6 weeks operating Chinese domestic flights and international sorties not to their homes, it will be a route to mental depression and family breakups. What recruitment agencies should convince their customer airlines is the need to bring Chinese airline T & C's to international norms practiced by good legacy carriers as China moves into a major role on the global stage.
In present practice, medical and life insurance issues are the recruitment agencies' call and so are sign on/end of contract bonuses.
Commuting 6/2 will only work well if you are operating to your home base; for those who are going to be holed up in PEK, SHA or CAN for 6 weeks operating Chinese domestic flights and international sorties not to their homes, it will be a route to mental depression and family breakups. What recruitment agencies should convince their customer airlines is the need to bring Chinese airline T & C's to international norms practiced by good legacy carriers as China moves into a major role on the global stage.
In present practice, medical and life insurance issues are the recruitment agencies' call and so are sign on/end of contract bonuses.
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I don't really get as to why you think that kind of salary is crazy pappy J
The time to make those salaries is now that the demand is high for experienced pilots, if we don't make those advancements when the market is favorable for us, when? Commuting contacts that offer 14 days off a month shoud be the norm, we got that improvement and it makes the difference big time, when you commute 15 time zones to come to work it is a must that at least you commute in business class as a bare minimum, monetary devaluation stipulation should be included in all contracts. That is where the demand is taking the market, contracts like KAL are behind the reality of today's projections
Working 16, 17 days a month and 14 off is what I do every month and I hardly would call that part time
The time to make those salaries is now that the demand is high for experienced pilots, if we don't make those advancements when the market is favorable for us, when? Commuting contacts that offer 14 days off a month shoud be the norm, we got that improvement and it makes the difference big time, when you commute 15 time zones to come to work it is a must that at least you commute in business class as a bare minimum, monetary devaluation stipulation should be included in all contracts. That is where the demand is taking the market, contracts like KAL are behind the reality of today's projections Working 16, 17 days a month and 14 off is what I do every month and I hardly would call that part time
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I am new. I am not an aviator but I fly as passenger on helos to my oil rigs. I am always fascinated with an airline pilot's life. I have a brother in law working in the Far East as a pilot and it is he who directed me to this forum.
I must say I am truly shocked how airline pilots accept such terms and conditions as made out in many threads in this Pprune website! I always thought my brother in law earns heaps with all kind of fancy perks. I was shocked he travels cattle class and only gets upgraded reluctantly to business when available. Unless this website is a massive disinformation site, I must say you pilots got yourselves awfully shortchanged.
I commute to work 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off initially. After 10 years, I have enough seniorty for 2 weeks on and 3 weeks off option. I can still remain on a 2 weeks on/ 2 weeks off, but my " volunteer option " of not taking the 5th week off entails a double pay. I don't want to go into the details about my renumeration. My brother in law was so tired of arguing with me that he showed me his full so called commuting contract and I am truly amazed that airline captains with the kind of responsibilties thrusted upon them, would accept such terms and conditions!
Get out of that industry and join the shale oil companies in Alberta. I received a Canadian offer that was really good to tempt me to venture to the landed wilderness instead of the watery wilderness that my offshore work takes me to very 2 to 3 weeks.
I must say I am truly shocked how airline pilots accept such terms and conditions as made out in many threads in this Pprune website! I always thought my brother in law earns heaps with all kind of fancy perks. I was shocked he travels cattle class and only gets upgraded reluctantly to business when available. Unless this website is a massive disinformation site, I must say you pilots got yourselves awfully shortchanged.
I commute to work 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off initially. After 10 years, I have enough seniorty for 2 weeks on and 3 weeks off option. I can still remain on a 2 weeks on/ 2 weeks off, but my " volunteer option " of not taking the 5th week off entails a double pay. I don't want to go into the details about my renumeration. My brother in law was so tired of arguing with me that he showed me his full so called commuting contract and I am truly amazed that airline captains with the kind of responsibilties thrusted upon them, would accept such terms and conditions!
Get out of that industry and join the shale oil companies in Alberta. I received a Canadian offer that was really good to tempt me to venture to the landed wilderness instead of the watery wilderness that my offshore work takes me to very 2 to 3 weeks.
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Dominican, 14 "hard" days off a month that allow you to commute would be great. Give us a hint of where it is offered please.
We are all talking about consecutive days off in these forums, and of course in the 6 week period "on" work, there are about the usual L/R days off between the flights plus the layovers which can be 2-3 sometimes 4 days at destination. They don't count as off.
We are all talking about consecutive days off in these forums, and of course in the 6 week period "on" work, there are about the usual L/R days off between the flights plus the layovers which can be 2-3 sometimes 4 days at destination. They don't count as off.
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I am supporting the 18/12 rotation and not the 6/2 weeks. Presently I landed a Job close to home and no commuting required. Compensation is above the KAL salary. Chinese have to start to see that as well.
As there are still enough fellows shipped to and from ICN every month there is no need to raise the numbers on your account. Dry the operation out, let them scramble for Pilots, tell your agent what you have heared from Guy´s who where there and that you are not subject to such treatment. Ask for a protection to shake them up. It will take some time, if the tarmac is covered by parked planes it makes them think, not earlier. That is valid everywhere.
Fly safe and land
NG
As there are still enough fellows shipped to and from ICN every month there is no need to raise the numbers on your account. Dry the operation out, let them scramble for Pilots, tell your agent what you have heared from Guy´s who where there and that you are not subject to such treatment. Ask for a protection to shake them up. It will take some time, if the tarmac is covered by parked planes it makes them think, not earlier. That is valid everywhere.
Fly safe and land
NG
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6 weeks on duty is too long of a period to be away from your family, I'm quite disappointed at the fact that some guys here are acting as if they are doing you a favor by giving you a job, you operate an equipment worth hundreds of millions of dollars and by your technical expertise they will make hundreds more in profits by you working there, it is business, start thinking as such. Aviation here is Asia is expanding at a rate that will create a large need for pilots in the next few years, this is the time to make the salary advancements that have been lost over the years since 9/11 and the economical downturn. Or do you think they are offering this out of the kindness of their hearts? They are offering the lowest bid that will get takers, simple as that. They need the pilots, you need the time off and the pay, 20K and 2 weeks off a month is perfectly attainable and getting very close in some contracts, it isn't crazy at all as some here might think it is.
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Rotation
1.000 hrs per year makes it average 90 per month to count as well for Vaccation, recurrent and other unproductive days. A economical Schedule is the aim I would go for as a bean counter. Why having a Pilot sitting in a Hotel down the road when he can sit at home for free??
From China to Europe and back it is average about 21 hours, the rotation can be done in 72 hours or less. From China to US-West Coast you do about 27 hours pattern. You produce that in less then 70 hours. You do four of those in 14 days and then you are good to go home for two weeks and even take some overtime pay into your account. Most Commuters I met in the past where aiming for that and would take the burden versus the ratio time off, money earned.
The fun fatcor is gone anyway in this business. As Domenican stated: It is business, not charity. Both sides will take advantage of each other. Nothing more and nothing less. As I saight before: 18 / 12 is the minimum they need to offer, if we can achieve 16/14 it would be better.
From China to Europe and back it is average about 21 hours, the rotation can be done in 72 hours or less. From China to US-West Coast you do about 27 hours pattern. You produce that in less then 70 hours. You do four of those in 14 days and then you are good to go home for two weeks and even take some overtime pay into your account. Most Commuters I met in the past where aiming for that and would take the burden versus the ratio time off, money earned.
The fun fatcor is gone anyway in this business. As Domenican stated: It is business, not charity. Both sides will take advantage of each other. Nothing more and nothing less. As I saight before: 18 / 12 is the minimum they need to offer, if we can achieve 16/14 it would be better.
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I agree 6/2 is too long to be away from family, particularly if you have young children as I do.
It may work for divorcees or married with kids grown up and a wife that prefers you away for so long.
I notice some agencies are even offering 8/2 off. They have to be kidding, perhaps thats why they are always advertising, as no one is applying or staying. Use it to get current then leave.
Many airlines monthly flying hours are around 80 a month before overtime. The maximum may be 100 hours, but that should not be the target. I worked for an airline that tried their best to roster as close as they could to 100 hours and the result is you get burned out.
It is sustainable when you are younger, but expect problems during your medical renewals as you get above 40 working those hours for many years.
I know an aircraft engineer that commutes with 6/6 weeks. Yet they certainly dont offer pilots that option.
Longhaul pilots could easily be rostered their 80 hours flying a month on a better deal than 6/2 weeks.
Airlines have offered the least pay and conditions they can and during the lean times and expansion of low cost/pay airlines in recent years the dollar value of airline pilot pay has tanked over the years, its time it improved.
If they can employ pilots on the 6/2 contracts they will. If no one apply or accepts they will offer better options.
Notice the increased salaries offered over the last few months, lets hope it continues.
I would happily work a 2/2 pattern on less money on the proviso I was not working my 80 hrs a month, otherwise roster 3/2 etc, 80 hrs a month flying and full pay.
Unfortunately it wont happen though unless pilots stop accepting such contracts.
It may work for divorcees or married with kids grown up and a wife that prefers you away for so long.
I notice some agencies are even offering 8/2 off. They have to be kidding, perhaps thats why they are always advertising, as no one is applying or staying. Use it to get current then leave.
Many airlines monthly flying hours are around 80 a month before overtime. The maximum may be 100 hours, but that should not be the target. I worked for an airline that tried their best to roster as close as they could to 100 hours and the result is you get burned out.
It is sustainable when you are younger, but expect problems during your medical renewals as you get above 40 working those hours for many years.
I know an aircraft engineer that commutes with 6/6 weeks. Yet they certainly dont offer pilots that option.
Longhaul pilots could easily be rostered their 80 hours flying a month on a better deal than 6/2 weeks.
Airlines have offered the least pay and conditions they can and during the lean times and expansion of low cost/pay airlines in recent years the dollar value of airline pilot pay has tanked over the years, its time it improved.
If they can employ pilots on the 6/2 contracts they will. If no one apply or accepts they will offer better options.
Notice the increased salaries offered over the last few months, lets hope it continues.
I would happily work a 2/2 pattern on less money on the proviso I was not working my 80 hrs a month, otherwise roster 3/2 etc, 80 hrs a month flying and full pay.
Unfortunately it wont happen though unless pilots stop accepting such contracts.
Last edited by Soab; 6th Jan 2012 at 21:31.
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<<Dominican, 14 "hard" days off a month that allow you to commute would be great. Give us a hint of where it is offered please.
We are all talking about consecutive days off in these forums, and of course in the 6 week period "on" work, there are about the usual L/R days off between the flights plus the layovers which can be 2-3 sometimes 4 days at destination. They don't count as off.>>
I don't think anyone answered "worldrover" about his post yet. Dominican is referring to the current conditions at Air Japan. We get 10 hard days that we can tack on 2 commute days plus 2 vacation days each month. That gives us a total of 14 hard days in a row off each month. I would prefer if we could have that without using our vacation days but I will take it for now.
We also get overtime pay at 70 hours, of course we never get over that much with all the cargo flying. My average in the last six months has been about 55 hours a month.
As far as people accepting the 6/2 conditions, they need to open their eyes and see that that is not a good contract. Six weeks is way too long to be gone. Four weeks is too long. I did 4 weeks in November/December so I could move my days off to get the holidays at home. By the third week I was so burned out it was starting to get hard to concentrate. In my opinion 3 weeks is long enough. Then go home and recharge the batteries so you can come back and do it again.
We are all talking about consecutive days off in these forums, and of course in the 6 week period "on" work, there are about the usual L/R days off between the flights plus the layovers which can be 2-3 sometimes 4 days at destination. They don't count as off.>>
I don't think anyone answered "worldrover" about his post yet. Dominican is referring to the current conditions at Air Japan. We get 10 hard days that we can tack on 2 commute days plus 2 vacation days each month. That gives us a total of 14 hard days in a row off each month. I would prefer if we could have that without using our vacation days but I will take it for now.
We also get overtime pay at 70 hours, of course we never get over that much with all the cargo flying. My average in the last six months has been about 55 hours a month.
As far as people accepting the 6/2 conditions, they need to open their eyes and see that that is not a good contract. Six weeks is way too long to be gone. Four weeks is too long. I did 4 weeks in November/December so I could move my days off to get the holidays at home. By the third week I was so burned out it was starting to get hard to concentrate. In my opinion 3 weeks is long enough. Then go home and recharge the batteries so you can come back and do it again.
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Mods!
This is a very good thread. It should be moved to "Rumours and News" or "Terms and Endearment" since it is not about China. It's about the future for pilots and should be read by everyone.
6/2 is totally unacceptable. If you accept that without being unemployed and starving you degrade your profession.
This is a very good thread. It should be moved to "Rumours and News" or "Terms and Endearment" since it is not about China. It's about the future for pilots and should be read by everyone.
6/2 is totally unacceptable. If you accept that without being unemployed and starving you degrade your profession.
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jrmyl, thanks for the clarification.
I think that it is a good contract you're working on there.
I do agree that 6/2 is too hard for short haul, its not that bad for L/R though,as long as the routes and the layovers (and conditions-hotels etc) are good. 6 weeks on but you are still limited by max flight time so you are not totally burned, plus many times you can spend 2-4 days home if the destination is your home.
Anyway, I also see that although financially the whole western world is going from bad to worse, aviation is steadily picking up because of the emerging economies and it looks like it is going to continue improving.
Every single one of us has to do his bit now during this period, to improve the terms and conditions of working in all these countries faraway from home.
Stating your preferred duty period or suggesting a new one can only aid to the companies learning from you and make it easier to keep us satisfied.
Easier said than done but every small improvement is followed by a bigger one.
Remember, or just go over some old threads and you will see the difference between the pay-terms-conditions that used to exist less than 10 years ago in the same airlines that now offer the best contracts.
Some guys did their part for this improvement and they were not the managers.
I think that it is a good contract you're working on there.
I do agree that 6/2 is too hard for short haul, its not that bad for L/R though,as long as the routes and the layovers (and conditions-hotels etc) are good. 6 weeks on but you are still limited by max flight time so you are not totally burned, plus many times you can spend 2-4 days home if the destination is your home.
Anyway, I also see that although financially the whole western world is going from bad to worse, aviation is steadily picking up because of the emerging economies and it looks like it is going to continue improving.
Every single one of us has to do his bit now during this period, to improve the terms and conditions of working in all these countries faraway from home.
Stating your preferred duty period or suggesting a new one can only aid to the companies learning from you and make it easier to keep us satisfied.
Easier said than done but every small improvement is followed by a bigger one.
Remember, or just go over some old threads and you will see the difference between the pay-terms-conditions that used to exist less than 10 years ago in the same airlines that now offer the best contracts.
Some guys did their part for this improvement and they were not the managers.
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I am not willing to prostitute for less