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Vietnam Airlines (info please)

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Vietnam Airlines (info please)

Old 2nd May 2018, 22:36
  #1501 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: SE Asian Jungle
Posts: 11
Laughing...

Originally Posted by ia1166 View Post


follow the sop and brief in accordance. Its a standard arrival brief, including the 10-9. A proper arrival brief would have picked it up.

The captain is responsible at all times.

I agree with wingEagle here; you’re a moron, if not an ass-kisser with your beloved managers!
I know everyone has heard this saying: “the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results!” Therefore:
Step 1: blame the recently arrived Expat; he is expendable:
Step 2: set up an elaborate blame and shame show, so that the locals have something to jack off to
Step 3: pretend that management sees everything, do so by running around the airport pretending to know what they are doing.
Step 4: make sure the public, and especially the Red Party, knows, it was a foreigner, since Vietnamese don’t do this!
Step 5: hire a replacement pilot from a country that desperately needs a job, is disposable, and will be submissive and make no problems if fired.

If I was the US Pilot, I’d be in touch with my embassy and the FAA; I’d make a full report, requiere an audit and SUE Vietnam Airlines for public endangerment and wrongful work termination!
Will it stick? Probably not, but it will put a HUGE dent into VNA’s plans to operate to the States... and in my opinion, they shouldn’t; not even to Europe!

Last edited by VietJetPilot; 2nd May 2018 at 23:00.
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Old 2nd May 2018, 23:02
  #1502 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Moscow
Posts: 16
Ia1166 is one of the factor that drowned the standard at vna: where the fo was? And mostly who train the fo?
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Old 3rd May 2018, 00:25
  #1503 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 36N 33E
Posts: 116
Originally Posted by Ruzki View Post
Ia1166 is one of the factor that drowned the standard at vna: where the fo was? And mostly who train the fo?
VietJet; we can do without the name-calling; at least pretend your a professional!
If I’m not mistaken, what Wingedeagle is trying to say is that people are not machines; and as many of us have exclaimed, there is NO checks and balances in Vietnam Airlines.
Fact is, someone let both FO and Captain our into this wide-wide world. Someone did not do the job to evaluate the skipper nor the FO. Someone dispatched the flight without making sure the crew knew what was going on (yeah, I sign papers all day, too, but important things should be highlitghted, or not?) and that person is off the hook; someone trained the lad, and is off the hook; someone released the Second in Command, and both are off the hook!
But the worst is this: There is a general “I really, really don’t give a shit” ambience we are working in! I mean, everyone hangs around the place thinking “if it imploded tomorrow, who cares?”; and it stinks because guys like me, who try their best to be as professional as possible, feel that we all have let the lad down... but I guess, that’s just me, right?
Well, I think with the backing of the FAA and a really good lawyer, yeah, I actually think he could get a good settlement... it happens like this in life sometimes...! Squeeze them Lemonades...
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Old 3rd May 2018, 07:29
  #1504 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Moscow
Posts: 16
Faa and easa had been advised.
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Old 3rd May 2018, 12:18
  #1505 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
Posts: 1,673
Holy shit you guys

The captain IS responsible

Yes of course we are all only human, and there are factors i.e. he's new to the company and I believe hadn't flown the RNAV20 approach before.

Isn't that the biggest reason of all to be very cautious and make a full briefing, keep the autopilot engaged, get stable early, follow the RNAV lateral & vertical profile, cross check EVERYTHING. The RNAV appch takes you straight to the threshold at 500'. I flew it today and in my opinion it's damn near impossible to misidentify it from minima if you're on profile. You NEVER call visual if you're in ANY doubt as to runway position. Your FO appearing to be confident of his position, is not an excuse that will save your ass in court.

I know IA1166 to be a damn good and conscientious instructor and I'm sure him and many other instructors are tearing their hair out about how can they train for this kind of screwup. Let's hear some of you guys' practical suggestions, as to how the instructor team can actually write a sim syllabus that will "train" people to not do something as crazy as misidentifying a half built runway in CAVOK conditions when you have so many visual cues like the ND and the lack of PAPIs and the complete lack of rubber marks on the runway etc etc etc.

Some of you guys are still talking "us" vs "them" as though you still think you're better. "We" the expats are the ones responsible for two pretty big insurance claims in the last few weeks. The rainy season is here now and it's dangerous out there. Time to walk the talk that we are professional pilots, and double down on caution and situational awareness and yes, following SOP
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Old 3rd May 2018, 15:47
  #1506 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 36N 33E
Posts: 116
Originally Posted by Luke SkyToddler View Post
Holy shit you guys

The captain IS responsible

Yes of course we are all only human, and there are factors i.e. he's new to the company and I believe hadn't flown the RNAV20 approach before.

Isn't that the biggest reason of all to be very cautious and make a full briefing, keep the autopilot engaged, get stable early, follow the RNAV lateral & vertical profile, cross check EVERYTHING. The RNAV appch takes you straight to the threshold at 500'. I flew it today and in my opinion it's damn near impossible to misidentify it from minima if you're on profile. You NEVER call visual if you're in ANY doubt as to runway position. Your FO appearing to be confident of his position, is not an excuse that will save your ass in court.

I know IA1166 to be a damn good and conscientious instructor and I'm sure him and many other instructors are tearing their hair out about how can they train for this kind of screwup. Let's hear some of you guys' practical suggestions, as to how the instructor team can actually write a sim syllabus that will "train" people to not do something as crazy as misidentifying a half built runway in CAVOK conditions when you have so many visual cues like the ND and the lack of PAPIs and the complete lack of rubber marks on the runway etc etc etc.

Some of you guys are still talking "us" vs "them" as though you still think you're better. "We" the expats are the ones responsible for two pretty big insurance claims in the last few weeks. The rainy season is here now and it's dangerous out there. Time to walk the talk that we are professional pilots, and double down on caution and situational awareness and yes, following SOP
So, the company had NO responsability? It was not the company that hiered the lad? It was not one of the pilots, like IA1166, who released that fella? And there is no fault on behalf of the Chief of training for not revising their training outlines? Perhaps a few extra flights by a local Instructor as an observer? Nah, would not have changed that, right?
I agree with both you and IA, yeah, we skippers are “ultimately” responsible for everything, but both of you have to admit there is something really wrong in this company about it’s recruitment and training traditions; upon arrival here, I myself went through 5 days of “laziness” ground training with mediocre English speaking local instructors here in HCM, followed by 6 flights, that’s 3 only Days, of flight training; that was IT! No Simulator Training, no Operational indoctrination, just a quick hop in the office to fill out paper work, two pages of standard PA announcements, and the request to “follow SOP’s”. That was three years ago and at one point I was actually looking for a new fan club to go to because I thought to myself “they can’t be serious; they are playing around but not hiring me!”.
If I was a manager here, a personally responsible part for the direction and longevity of this company, my EGO by itself would dictate a LOT more indoctrination training than what I got here. I get the fact that Emirates or Qatar is way too extreme, but VNA is nothing in comparison; can’t it be something in the middle?
And while I have the attention of some Expat Instructors here, what is up with the Chief Pilot wanting to meet up with Expats on their day off? Yeah, so, the safety consciousness suddenly kicks in with him, probably because he’s getting a lot more phone calls from the CEO now, and the way to fix it is by having a pow-wow with selected Expats when they have BBQ plans and supposed to be on their legal rest day off... it puzzles me; seems they are trying very hard to adapt western cultures, too (sarcasm!). So, with this in mind, I’m confused, is this a critical situation for VNA, or not? Because if it was, then shouldn’t they schedule me for this meeting, so Mr Chief Pilot can actually have my full attention of the message he wishes to convey?!?

This month’s Blame and Shame game has officially been scheduled for tomorrow, and I would like to know why my schedule hasn’t been adjusted, accordingly? Is it because I’ll be flying to Cam Ranh myself tomorrow?
Fact is, the SMS in VNA is a non-exsistant joke! It’s in the books, yes, but with the turn over that this company has, it is neither adecuate nor able to do its job. Instead of helping identifying risks and dangerous patterns in order to adequately train and modify behavior, it’s simply abused to punish its most important participants: the pilots! And while the locals have an economic solutions to getting their slates cleaned by, occurrences like this one by Expat Captains get the local pilots into a frenzy. Some of ya should go by the fleet office in Saigon these days; when they see an Expat head sticking through the door it gets VERY quiet suddenly...
Sorry, I for my part am not impressed at all, as usual...

Last edited by EagleA25; 3rd May 2018 at 17:12.
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Old 3rd May 2018, 17:15
  #1507 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
Posts: 1,673
So many criticisms and so few solutions offered

So tell us, specifically, what would you do to stop this kind of thing happening in future? If you say "more training" then tell us exactly what you want to do and what extra items you will add to the sim syllabus, and what items you will take OUT of the sim syllabus to fit everything into the 4 hour slot

You say "observer flights" but we all know you can go months without doing the 20 approach, will you keep the guy on line training until he's done EVERY approach from both ends of EVERY runway in the network?

Shit happens. He's not 100% responsible, and I hope that the captain doesn't get sacrificed, and the FO and the ATC don't also get what they deserve. They probably won't. That's a cultural thing. I don't disagree with you that it's wrong. I just can't see what the instructors and safety department could have done differently or better in this particular case. If you CAN see something then please do take it to them, I mean that. I don't think they'd ignore you if you have a good suggestion.

Last edited by Luke SkyToddler; 4th May 2018 at 06:30.
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Old 3rd May 2018, 22:49
  #1508 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Eagles Nest
Posts: 50
Luke, more training alone would have not fixed the latest incidents. The two runway excursions and the tail strike: a simple go around would have taken care of everything. Sounds like a lack of good judgement: judgement cannot be trained. However the airline could do so much more to help the crew make a good judgement. It can start with doing away with punitive culture and implementing a non punitive one (SMS). No reports should be required in case of a go around. If a crew decides to execute a missed approach, more power to them. The public shaming needs to stop. And if a crew does deserve to get a slap on the wrist, it should be done behind closed doors. Secondly the company needs to get away from an Aero Club mentality and become a real airline. This means either hire real dispatchers or train the ones who call themselves "dispatchers" to provide proper information to crews during briefing. It takes more to be a dispatcher than print out flight plans and tell you the ZFW. As far as training, train the F/Os to properly read NOTAMS. There is more to NOTAMS than VIP movements. Runway and taxiway closures etc. need to be addressed. And lastly, it takes authorities weeks and perhaps months to investigate an incident. Strangely at VNA it takes a couple of days and the "follow SOP strictly" solves it all. Till next time ....
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Old 4th May 2018, 01:51
  #1509 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 36N 33E
Posts: 116
Originally Posted by wingdeagle View Post
Luke, more training alone would have not fixed the latest incidents. The two runway excursions and the tail strike: a simple go around would have taken care of everything. Sounds like a lack of good judgement: judgement cannot be trained. However the airline could do so much more to help the crew make a good judgement. It can start with doing away with punitive culture and implementing a non punitive one (SMS). No reports should be required in case of a go around. If a crew decides to execute a missed approach, more power to them. The public shaming needs to stop. And if a crew does deserve to get a slap on the wrist, it should be done behind closed doors. Secondly the company needs to get away from an Aero Club mentality and become a real airline. This means either hire real dispatchers or train the ones who call themselves "dispatchers" to provide proper information to crews during briefing. It takes more to be a dispatcher than print out flight plans and tell you the ZFW. As far as training, train the F/Os to properly read NOTAMS. There is more to NOTAMS than VIP movements. Runway and taxiway closures etc. need to be addressed. And lastly, it takes authorities weeks and perhaps months to investigate an incident. Strangely at VNA it takes a couple of days and the "follow SOP strictly" solves it all. Till next time ....
Yeap; you pretty much beat me to responding to Luke...
perhaps a side note: a reason for a go-around for statistical purposes I would request, purpose to identify patterns such as ATC, weather, or simply Pilot Training.
One thing I like what you said, and I mean a lot, is the “get rid of punitive measurement” and “need for public shaming”mentality; I just can’t get my head around how the Chief Pilot wishes to improve their relationship with pilots by handing it to them with sticks. Do managers really believe we wake up and get out of bed in the morning with the intent of breaking an airplane today?

Luke, in my comments I ment no offense, and I think (and hope) we’re all on the same team, because I know it’s hard to teach common sense in this region; what is even harder is teaching in an internal company culture that inspires a privilege of laziness, Because that is what is happening: we are too comfortable with not moving another finger to even audit ourselfs when we fly! Perhaps even because some of us might not like what we will see at the end as the work ambience of the company promotes a level laziness that I can only describe as Habit-forming; and I am the first to admit: I am one of them!
I agree that “shit happens”, and being a keen AvHerald reader, I am very aware it happens all the time; but you can’t just go out to the plane with your fingers crossed hoping that it won’t happen to you today.
I remember hearing a local FO saying “we don’t always have to do everything perfectly!” to which I replied asking him if he would want ME to do my job perfectly if his mother or girlfriend was on board; guess what, I’ve never seen an FO enter the requested enrute winds so quickly into the MCDU in my career because I explained him that we owe this to all our customers, not just his family...
Fact is, if your normal ops is disciplined, your abnormal will be a matter of mind-over-body; but when things go wrong and you were not doing your job the way you are supposed to, and are not used to doing it, chances are that will probably end with a hull loss if it is a more complex failure.

But, as asked, here is my wish, Luke, and IA1166:
take the list that Wingedeagle mentioned and put it in front of management, in writing; that way it is a responsability that the managers HAVE to comply with or be accountable in case of an accident.
Have the balls as experienced instructors in Vietnam Airlines to highly recommend these changes, promote a non-punitive SMS system, one that analyzes data and corrects behavior, not beats its best source of information to pulp and into submission by ways of the force and fear! If not, the turn over rate will just keep going and nothing good will come from that... I myself am just too lazy to look for a new job by now...
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Old 4th May 2018, 02:02
  #1510 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
Posts: 1,673
Fair enough wingdeagle can't disagree with any of that

Also on further reflection I think now would be a very good time to push for a big overhaul of our bloated briefings, and replace them with a "threat forward", shorter more relevant and more interactive brief, such as they are using in Alaskan and Cathay and a few other forward thinking airlines nowadays https://www.aerosociety.com/news/briefing-better/

"If" I was an instructor I'd be pushing for that. But like most pilots here, I'm 0% interested in the extra stress, politics and risk to my licence of being an instructor, vs the miniscule extra reward they pay for it. Maybe that's something else that needs to change
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Old 11th May 2018, 22:18
  #1511 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Asia
Posts: 19
I just finished 4 years withVNA.
Unfortunalty They have gotten worse every year I have been here.
You make the mistake of going with Parc. Your contract is worth nothing.
7 paid sick days in 6 months says the contract. But company changed FOM
so your schedule if screwed for rest of month after calling in sick and you have to work extra day to repay company.
how is that a paid sick day? Basically the company does what ever they want and Parc
Rolls over immediately. There are No Regs Here at all. If You go over Your allowed Captains discretion
Vice President calls and all of a sudden You are magically legal to fly till u drop. I have been coerced into doing 19 hour 6 sector all nite
duty!!!! And forget about any travel benfits. U only get ( more expensive then real ticket online) standby tickets
only where company operates. No sky team. No code shar, no zed far. No interline.
because of the contract you will work 100 hours month-No over time, because that's 160 hours
in 2 calendar months. With 6/2 schedule you will fly 159.9 hours in 6 weeks. You will have God awful
all night china turn arounds 3 -4 times per month. You will never ever get more then 7 days off in a month.
and they have no definition of what a day off is ( even though u are required to have 7 per month).No one knows what a day off is here.
they told me that I had day off when My report was at 00:30!!!! There are no rules. Schedules always change
its about the worst contract I have had ( out of 11 companys I have worked for on contract). They treat foreigners just as bad as they
Treat each other. To summarize. You will hate it, and when You leave they will try and charge you money for every sick day or day off they said you owe them. Basic a fu..^*¥ed up company that gets worse every month. I am so happy not to work there any more.
thats just Me. You might enjoy the abuse. Good Luck!
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Old 12th May 2018, 11:43
  #1512 (permalink)  
Cak
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: At home
Age: 38
Posts: 91
I agree with most of the things but why did you stay for 4 years if you didn’t like it from beginning???
All in all, very shitty company
PARC contract is crap but also beacuse it’s a crap, you can avoid all penalties if you leave earlier. Just consulting a lawyer, you can find that they don’t have any legal basis for most of the things they ask for.
Also, you signed 7 days off per month, so why would you expect more?
Days off were defined. If it’s not clear in OM, you should consult CAAV flight time limitations document. It was based on UK CAP, so pretty detailed and good (maybe that changed but 2 years ago it was still in force).
And nobody can force you to fly above the limits or to use your discretion if you don’t want to do it. They can try, but as a captain you can and should decline it
Also, I believe that your 19h duty was with augmented crew, so it’s little bit more complicated
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Old 13th May 2018, 20:35
  #1513 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 36N 33E
Posts: 116
Grrr

Originally Posted by Cak View Post
... nobody can force you to fly above the limits or to use your discretion if you don’t want to do it. They can try, but as a captain you can and should decline it

Actually, they can... not sure if you’re flying in Vietnam Airlines, but the FOM clearly states that the VP of Operations can order any extension necessary for the continuance of the operation. I’ve seen those authorisations in the Hanoi Briefing Room, they have then pre-signed there; blank checks lying around...

In reference to your “augmented Crew”: where is it allowed on the Narrow body to do so? Your third-world-country business class seat in the A321is NOT approved by the CAAV as an apropriate rest place. It is neither isolated nor adequate.
I personally brought this subject up with my Broker, and after months being ignored I sent an email to the fleet manager himself. Same resonse as my broker! None
You want to discuss legality of a communist led company owned by a communist country? Legality is the least of their worries; we are defined mercenaries, we might as well break the rules for THEM, because following SOP’s strictly at VNA requieres absolute flexibility...
Everyone talks about it, everyone here knows it, and even my own layer told me, the reenforced crew procedure at VNA is both illegal AND unsafe, but it makes them rich, Expats are expendable, so no one cares about your legality here, unless they get another event, and then the Expat has to go...


Last edited by EagleA25; 13th May 2018 at 20:36. Reason: Bad grammar...
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Old 24th Jun 2018, 08:49
  #1514 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: london
Posts: 52
Missing VNA threads? I can still see this?
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Old 25th Jun 2018, 15:09
  #1515 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 36N 33E
Posts: 116
Originally Posted by bigbird View Post
Missing VNA threads? I can still see this?
Yeah; the thread disappeared for a few days... weired...
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Old 28th Jun 2018, 07:57
  #1516 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Vegas
Posts: 1
Regional Jets in Vietnam?

Vietnam Airlines issues RFP for Regional Jet ACMI. News anyone?
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Old 30th Jun 2018, 16:56
  #1517 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Here and there.
Posts: 34
B787 Captains,

New rounds of recruiting going on from various agents.

A few questions that have been covered before however a bit dated so I ask again.

1, Basings, Hanoi or HCM ? (Agency says both)
2. 6/2 contract to start then 5/3 on offer, what would the salary deduction be in percentage?
3. Does the tax credit certificate work in home countries.?
4. What does the general roster look like, hours? days off? routes?
5. Does the upgrade to business class normally work on positioning to/from HCM or is it a on seats available only?
6. Which agency is the preferred or most likely to hold your back? If any.

Thanks for all relevant information. Still in the decision mode to apply or not.

Skyrocket..
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 09:41
  #1518 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Moscow
Posts: 16
For those thinking to apply as first officer

This is was 1 year ago ( not 10 years ago )

Dear A321 First Officers,

As you will be aware, there is growing uncertainty around the future of the A321 First Officer role at VNA and unfortunately, overnight, we were advised that VNA will soon be releasing A321 First Officers (with 60 days notice).

At this time we do not know who or when, but indications are that notice will be given in stages throughout the year, commencing this month.

RAL is continuing to communicate with VNA about this situation and will keep you updated with any news as we receive it, so that you will be fully updated as you consider your future options.

We understand that this is very difficult news to hear, and we will do our best to assist you as much as possible over the coming months. Given this news, however, we strongly recommend that you start to take steps now to secure your next contract opportunity.

Regarding opportunities available to you, I note that we work very closely with Jetstar Pacific and they are currently recruiting A320 FOs. Please find attached the brief outlining details of this role. Also attached are briefing documents for other roles that you may qualify for and be interested in. Please do not hesitate to contact the Recruitment Consultant noted on the brief for further information about any of these roles, and copy me into your email.

Once again, we will keep you all updated as news come to hand. In the meantime, if you have any further questions, please let me know.

Kind regards,
Regional Manager

you all have been warned. Ask your agencies about that
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Old 7th Jul 2018, 09:43
  #1519 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nihon
Posts: 1
Do not forget the same email about the B777 and A330 !
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Old 9th Jul 2018, 05:32
  #1520 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nihon
Posts: 1
Angry

VIETNAM AIRLINES

A320 FIRST OFFICER OPPORTUNITIES

Vietnam Airlines is accepting applications for A320 First Officers!!

Air travel, hotel and ground transportation will be provided. If you are interested, please APPLY NOW!

Benefits:
  • Very Competitive Pay - Increase in pay is expected
  • Annual Salary Increase from 3rd Year
  • Taxes Paid - Tax Certificate Provided
  • Flexible Commuting Roster
  • Amazing World-Class Pilot Insurance
  • Life Insurance Offered
  • Retirement Benefits
  • Excellent Great Working Conditions
  • Pilot Income Protection
  • Career Progression with Opportunity to Upgrade to A320
What a joke.
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