SIA CARGO
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Any comments ?
Originally Posted by CARGOJOCK
Nothing thats right "zero"
a whole lot of BS and thats about it. end result is that we guys will pax on "CARGO AIRCRAFT" direct to ANC or EUROPE and operate back. They plan on implimenting AOC rules which are more liberal than current CAA/ALPS collective agreement which gice us time out of base allowances in lieu of the flying time.
so guys hang on to your nuts this is going to be a hell of a roller coaster ride.
Rosters were the primary issue and they shall implement a two month block roster for selected crews operating selective COP's.
The bottom line is they (management) do not want to rock the boat for the mainline lads as they will continue their pick of the routes and COP's and we will keep doing all these crazy implementations which is "just a waste of time" and a charade.
travel priviledges too "NO CHANGE", we will only get ID75 so we all shall continue to buy the tickets in downtown for cheaper.
however we had a great buffet and beer and wine after the meeting!!!!!!!!!!
a whole lot of BS and thats about it. end result is that we guys will pax on "CARGO AIRCRAFT" direct to ANC or EUROPE and operate back. They plan on implimenting AOC rules which are more liberal than current CAA/ALPS collective agreement which gice us time out of base allowances in lieu of the flying time.
so guys hang on to your nuts this is going to be a hell of a roller coaster ride.
Rosters were the primary issue and they shall implement a two month block roster for selected crews operating selective COP's.
The bottom line is they (management) do not want to rock the boat for the mainline lads as they will continue their pick of the routes and COP's and we will keep doing all these crazy implementations which is "just a waste of time" and a charade.
travel priviledges too "NO CHANGE", we will only get ID75 so we all shall continue to buy the tickets in downtown for cheaper.
however we had a great buffet and beer and wine after the meeting!!!!!!!!!!
What is your reaction to the above. You guys are quiet these days.
Do you agree with the JOCK ?
EHAM
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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I had ten years with SIA on the -400 and CARGO JOCK is talking embittered tosh, most of his bile is misdirected and the product of his imagination.
The rostering of 'mainline' is a fairly simple procedure. The London based crews have their set patterns that they fly, designed to get the maximum hours out of each individual in their work cycle and yes, it means that getting an 'in-command' trip to LHR is pretty rare for SIN based crews, so every LHR includes Stby in London. The rest of the LHR based crews patterns are fairly ordinary.
The next priority is training and they will be given whatever COPs they need to ensure that training continues and that may include pax and cargo combined to maximise useful sectors.
What is left is dished out amongst the remaining pilots and if it is expedient to use a mainline crew to operate a freighter service to get them in a position where they can then continue to be productive to the maximum then that is what they will be rostered for. The mainline crews are more versatile as they can operate both fleets. Maybe CARGO JOCK joined the wrong fleet? Maybe he didn't listen enough at the interview or ask the right questions?
The idea that the mainline pilots can say to SIA, "give us the best combination of trips, or else!" is just pie in the sky and it doesn't happen. The best they can do is request a COP well in advance, requests are limited. The only governing factor is maximum productivity at the least cost, go ask the people who put the COPs together, they are the ones you should direct your venom at CARGO JOCK and should you have the courage to do so you will quickly see that your fertile imagination has led you astray!.
The rostering of 'mainline' is a fairly simple procedure. The London based crews have their set patterns that they fly, designed to get the maximum hours out of each individual in their work cycle and yes, it means that getting an 'in-command' trip to LHR is pretty rare for SIN based crews, so every LHR includes Stby in London. The rest of the LHR based crews patterns are fairly ordinary.
The next priority is training and they will be given whatever COPs they need to ensure that training continues and that may include pax and cargo combined to maximise useful sectors.
What is left is dished out amongst the remaining pilots and if it is expedient to use a mainline crew to operate a freighter service to get them in a position where they can then continue to be productive to the maximum then that is what they will be rostered for. The mainline crews are more versatile as they can operate both fleets. Maybe CARGO JOCK joined the wrong fleet? Maybe he didn't listen enough at the interview or ask the right questions?
The idea that the mainline pilots can say to SIA, "give us the best combination of trips, or else!" is just pie in the sky and it doesn't happen. The best they can do is request a COP well in advance, requests are limited. The only governing factor is maximum productivity at the least cost, go ask the people who put the COPs together, they are the ones you should direct your venom at CARGO JOCK and should you have the courage to do so you will quickly see that your fertile imagination has led you astray!.
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I haven't seen a detailed transcript of the meeting but I have just seen my October roster (on holiday most of September) and I am happy with it. I am not part of the trial block roster system and have just the one positioning sector SIN/HKG, one augmented sector and quite a few operating sectors. I suffered considerable roster disruption in August but that was hardly the company's fault as a Captain had gone sick in JFK and I picked up the pieces.
I think Cargo Jocks points about staff travel are valid (if made a little aggressively) but it was obvious from the contract that commuting could be difficult and/or expensive and I can't see the justification of complaining about something that was very clearly explained prior to joining.
Everyones personal circumstances are different. So, you do your homework before you sign on the dotted line, and if you don't like the look of it you don't sign. It's not rocket science is it? It's maybe not the best job in the world but it's a helluva lot better than anything else I have had and, for the first time in 10 years, I am no longer actively scanning the back pages of Flight International.
If offered a contract to age 60/62/65 tomorrow I would be very happy to sign. It can be very easy to compare your lot to what you think mainline guys get. Bad idea. We signed a Cargo contract. Only if that contract is broken will we have a genuine grievance. As far as operating to AOCR's is concerned - well thats what we signed up for, and because of the nature of the Cargo patterns it may actually be "better" (in terms of operating sectors and salary) for us to operate that way.
I can't comment about the free beer and food laid on at the training centre as I was in the company of Left Coaster and a couple of other like minded individuals enjoying ribs, red wine and some great conversation at a restaurant by a canal in AMS at the time.
I think Cargo Jocks points about staff travel are valid (if made a little aggressively) but it was obvious from the contract that commuting could be difficult and/or expensive and I can't see the justification of complaining about something that was very clearly explained prior to joining.
Everyones personal circumstances are different. So, you do your homework before you sign on the dotted line, and if you don't like the look of it you don't sign. It's not rocket science is it? It's maybe not the best job in the world but it's a helluva lot better than anything else I have had and, for the first time in 10 years, I am no longer actively scanning the back pages of Flight International.
If offered a contract to age 60/62/65 tomorrow I would be very happy to sign. It can be very easy to compare your lot to what you think mainline guys get. Bad idea. We signed a Cargo contract. Only if that contract is broken will we have a genuine grievance. As far as operating to AOCR's is concerned - well thats what we signed up for, and because of the nature of the Cargo patterns it may actually be "better" (in terms of operating sectors and salary) for us to operate that way.
I can't comment about the free beer and food laid on at the training centre as I was in the company of Left Coaster and a couple of other like minded individuals enjoying ribs, red wine and some great conversation at a restaurant by a canal in AMS at the time.
Last edited by BANANASBANANAS; 27th Aug 2006 at 02:14.
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EHAM,
I wasn't at the meeting either, I was in AKL. I have my roster through Oct and I can't complain either. I'm not part of the "trial", but I am very happy with what I have.
My contract expires in less than a year, what I'll do is still up in the air. To be honest, things haven't gotten better and the divide between mainline and cargo is only widening. Parabellum is correct in his post about rostering. However, I think what most cargo guys object to is the fact we get what's left over. The thinking is cargo should get the choice of their rosters and then SIA gets what's left, after all, as SIA and SIA Cargo mgt like to point out, they're two separate companies! You can't have it both ways.....
I enjoy living/working in SIN, but there are "better" deals out there. Time will tell.
I wasn't at the meeting either, I was in AKL. I have my roster through Oct and I can't complain either. I'm not part of the "trial", but I am very happy with what I have.
My contract expires in less than a year, what I'll do is still up in the air. To be honest, things haven't gotten better and the divide between mainline and cargo is only widening. Parabellum is correct in his post about rostering. However, I think what most cargo guys object to is the fact we get what's left over. The thinking is cargo should get the choice of their rosters and then SIA gets what's left, after all, as SIA and SIA Cargo mgt like to point out, they're two separate companies! You can't have it both ways.....
I enjoy living/working in SIN, but there are "better" deals out there. Time will tell.
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Recruiting Sergeant?
Not me MC. My comments about SIA Cargo have been positive but that is because it suits our personal circumstances and I have tried to highlight that in all my posts. If we were looking to commute regularly to UK, USA, AUS etc then I think that life may not appear so rosy.
Staff Travel and Leave could be improved. Management are definitely aware of (and deserve credit for trying to do something about) the various Rostering issues, but we will have to see how it all shakes down. Other 744 operators definitely pay more and offer commuting contracts. Several of our number have already left for those very reasons and it may be that SIA Cargo choose to compete with these operators by looking at the package again.
Mr & Mrs Bananas remain happy in Singapore but our somewhat unique personal circumstances are a large part of that. It is vital that you do your homework before you join, know exactly what the contract will, and wont, do for you and life can then be fun.
Staff Travel and Leave could be improved. Management are definitely aware of (and deserve credit for trying to do something about) the various Rostering issues, but we will have to see how it all shakes down. Other 744 operators definitely pay more and offer commuting contracts. Several of our number have already left for those very reasons and it may be that SIA Cargo choose to compete with these operators by looking at the package again.
Mr & Mrs Bananas remain happy in Singapore but our somewhat unique personal circumstances are a large part of that. It is vital that you do your homework before you join, know exactly what the contract will, and wont, do for you and life can then be fun.
Last edited by BANANASBANANAS; 27th Aug 2006 at 23:25.
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Bananas Yes I appreciate your personal situation which makes staying in this region worth you staying in SQCargo.
As for SQCargo "choosing to compete with other operators" this would mean combining Mainline fleet with Cargo probably and offering the full Mainline T & C's. This would be a huge 'loss of face' and something I doubt they could stomach. One only has to look at their mentality regarding ID90 and 75 Tickets. Seeing as how you only get them if there are empty seats why on earth do they limit Mainline to just 4 ID90's pa until 10 years service and SQCargo only have ID75's It is totally illogical but shows their way of thinking.
As for SQCargo "choosing to compete with other operators" this would mean combining Mainline fleet with Cargo probably and offering the full Mainline T & C's. This would be a huge 'loss of face' and something I doubt they could stomach. One only has to look at their mentality regarding ID90 and 75 Tickets. Seeing as how you only get them if there are empty seats why on earth do they limit Mainline to just 4 ID90's pa until 10 years service and SQCargo only have ID75's It is totally illogical but shows their way of thinking.
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Mainline guys have unlimited ID85 and unlimited ID90 once they hit 10 years service.
Cheers
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I suppose it was to balance you off as the perpetual naysayer! I never said Cargo was perfect. It might be for some people, but everyone should decide for themselves.
To be honest, if I compare my IR8 with some mainline friends, there isn't much difference. However, I'm very tired of the company aruguing both sides of the Cargo/mainline issue. Either it's a separate company and you run it that way, or it's still part of SQ. You can't have it both ways.....
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Finally back...
Hi Boys...
Just back from a 14 day, and yes I did enjoy a few in AMS last week! At any rate I am going to defer comment until fully rested and paid up with the missus! Wouldn't want to start any fires at this hour. Off to bed! Later guys...
Just back from a 14 day, and yes I did enjoy a few in AMS last week! At any rate I am going to defer comment until fully rested and paid up with the missus! Wouldn't want to start any fires at this hour. Off to bed! Later guys...
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[s pa QUOTE=Merlinrabbi;2803845]Hi millerscourt,
Mainline guys have unlimited ID85 and unlimited ID90 once they hit 10 years service.
Cheers[/QUOTE]
Merlinrabbi What I meant was 4 ID90's pa then after 10years service unlimited but it was not written very clearly in retrospect. Thanks.Not sure what you mean about an ID85??
Mainline guys have unlimited ID85 and unlimited ID90 once they hit 10 years service.
Cheers[/QUOTE]
Merlinrabbi What I meant was 4 ID90's pa then after 10years service unlimited but it was not written very clearly in retrospect. Thanks.Not sure what you mean about an ID85??
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It is only my understading or everybody is really willing to move out of SIA Cargo?
I'm suposed to join the company next november and I'm getting worried as I see you guys saying that you're unsatisfied and looking for better places to work.
SF
I'm suposed to join the company next november and I'm getting worried as I see you guys saying that you're unsatisfied and looking for better places to work.
SF
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serious flyer If you are already B744 Rated then as Phil says there are better jobs out there. If not B744 Rated then it all depends on your personal requirements and situation and only you know what that is.
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Millerscourt,
Thank you for your answer.
I'm not B744 type rated, but I'm not going to join SIA Cargo for this, as I will sort of have to pay for it (the Bank Guarantee and the training bond).
I'm Md11/B767 type rated, being current on the first one and having more than 12000 hs PIC, 8000 on heavy jets, but my company is going bankrupt and my alternative would be joining another company in my country, but the income would not compare to SIA Cargo and I would have to fly small jets again.
Looking from a distance (I've been to Singapore only for the interview) this job seems to be a good one, but now even those who have argued in favor of it are implicating that it is not that good and the "mainline guys/cargo guys" issue is one that can not be solved.
I have a tough decision to make on the next month, so any insight opinion would be great.
Thanks.
SF
Thank you for your answer.
I'm not B744 type rated, but I'm not going to join SIA Cargo for this, as I will sort of have to pay for it (the Bank Guarantee and the training bond).
I'm Md11/B767 type rated, being current on the first one and having more than 12000 hs PIC, 8000 on heavy jets, but my company is going bankrupt and my alternative would be joining another company in my country, but the income would not compare to SIA Cargo and I would have to fly small jets again.
Looking from a distance (I've been to Singapore only for the interview) this job seems to be a good one, but now even those who have argued in favor of it are implicating that it is not that good and the "mainline guys/cargo guys" issue is one that can not be solved.
I have a tough decision to make on the next month, so any insight opinion would be great.
Thanks.
SF
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serious flyer Despite Phil calling me a 'naysayer' there are some for whom joining SQCargo is a good decision as a DEC. Your situation being current on a MD11 and about to lose your job is just that.
To be fair to SQ you get your Bank Guarantee money back provided you stay the 5 years from final line check so the cost is minimal just the loss of real interest and the setting up costs of around S$1600.
You should base your finances around 50 hrs per month and lot of positioning. If you have children of school age then you need to look closely at those costs which I personally have no idea as to what they currently are.If you need a car in Singapore because of school children then that will make a big dent in your finances.
Also of course I have no idea as to where your homebase is and how difficult it would be getting there on your vacation leave and for children and wife ( if any) to get back and forth as for them being confined to Singapore day in and day out can be a bit tedious.
To be fair to SQ you get your Bank Guarantee money back provided you stay the 5 years from final line check so the cost is minimal just the loss of real interest and the setting up costs of around S$1600.
You should base your finances around 50 hrs per month and lot of positioning. If you have children of school age then you need to look closely at those costs which I personally have no idea as to what they currently are.If you need a car in Singapore because of school children then that will make a big dent in your finances.
Also of course I have no idea as to where your homebase is and how difficult it would be getting there on your vacation leave and for children and wife ( if any) to get back and forth as for them being confined to Singapore day in and day out can be a bit tedious.
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OK, now that the business of home coming is out of the way, and after a lot of pondering the situation I really feel a need to sit and watch for a bit. The Cargo people have put it out that there are some ideas to be looked at, and I would like to "sit on the fence" to see if anything works...I have to admit I have seen the roster changes and questioned a couple of guys about it, and to be honest, I (even though the changes were no good to me) was ok with the answer. The alluded to "cherry picking" by main line after the rosters have been awarded carries no weight. It can't be done anymore without being hauled up to see the boss. It is (almost) always the commercial changes that direct most of the roster upheaval. And can anyone find a company out there that wouldn't respond to commercial realities. (There are some I know!
) Anyway as the charters role in and the loads change, so do the rosters. To do anything else (i.e. NOT responding) is kinda slow in my humble opinion. Like anyplace it has it's good and bad points, for my house it's fine, for the guy above who is gonna be out of work soon, a DEC is maybe what he needs to stay in it. Or look to the M.E. Some of those guys have NO roster security! Who knows? I will watch and keep learning, and see what happens. Might seem like a chickensh*t to some, but I gotta see first to form any opnions.
...my two bits!
Fly Safely in the meantime.
LC
) Anyway as the charters role in and the loads change, so do the rosters. To do anything else (i.e. NOT responding) is kinda slow in my humble opinion. Like anyplace it has it's good and bad points, for my house it's fine, for the guy above who is gonna be out of work soon, a DEC is maybe what he needs to stay in it. Or look to the M.E. Some of those guys have NO roster security! Who knows? I will watch and keep learning, and see what happens. Might seem like a chickensh*t to some, but I gotta see first to form any opnions....my two bits!
Fly Safely in the meantime.
LC
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LeftCoaster,
Just to clarify your last post. You mention "cherry picking" I just want to make sure that wasn't in response to my last post....
There are several issues with rostering. I will try to elaborate a little.
1) One MAJOR problem is the "flexible" marketing that Cargo has. I'm not talking about the schedule changes to meet marketing needs, but the lack of ability to nail down the schedule 6 months in advance. If you look now, the winter marketing plan. isn't firm yet, in fact, it's not going to be firm on the Cargo side for several more weeks. Once the marketing plan is firm then the COPs are developed from that. The current COP collection was put together in a very short time with no "fine tuning" at all. And it shows. In fact, we have COPs that don't exist in the schedule, I just did one to MAA! I understand the "flexibility" but at some point in time, you have to lock in the schedule.
2) Once the COPs are "set in Jello" then the rosters are developed. The current pecking order is Training gets first cut at one's they need, then the OSB (over seas base) gets thiers, then SIA and SIA cargo gets what's left. In other words, the non-productive COPs. I think most Cargo pilots would argue we should have the schedules run for us and then Mainline gets what's left.
3) SSSF days. The days we spend on standby are non-productive from a pilot's point of view. However, the company takes a different position; they view them as productive and as such they are used in the staffing formula. This affects staffing by a factor of about 15%!
4) Positioning. When I arrived, I was told to expect to position around 10 hours/month. Up until about 2 months ago, that was pretty true. However, now it's a different story, 40+. We don't get paid for positioning and quite frankly, if you were to get paid, the way the variable component is the computed, it's not a great deal of money. However, it's not "free" as the company would like to think. It still burns "man days" which limits us as to just how much we can fly/month. Plus, if the schedules were efficient, then we'd have more time off..... a big no no!
Anyhow, enough of the ranting. As Milerscourt pointed out, if you 're qualified on the 400, there are, I think, much better positions out there. When I joined there were no others out there. So, my choices were limited to SQC or EK.
Cheers!!!
Just to clarify your last post. You mention "cherry picking" I just want to make sure that wasn't in response to my last post....
There are several issues with rostering. I will try to elaborate a little.
1) One MAJOR problem is the "flexible" marketing that Cargo has. I'm not talking about the schedule changes to meet marketing needs, but the lack of ability to nail down the schedule 6 months in advance. If you look now, the winter marketing plan. isn't firm yet, in fact, it's not going to be firm on the Cargo side for several more weeks. Once the marketing plan is firm then the COPs are developed from that. The current COP collection was put together in a very short time with no "fine tuning" at all. And it shows. In fact, we have COPs that don't exist in the schedule, I just did one to MAA! I understand the "flexibility" but at some point in time, you have to lock in the schedule.
2) Once the COPs are "set in Jello" then the rosters are developed. The current pecking order is Training gets first cut at one's they need, then the OSB (over seas base) gets thiers, then SIA and SIA cargo gets what's left. In other words, the non-productive COPs. I think most Cargo pilots would argue we should have the schedules run for us and then Mainline gets what's left.
3) SSSF days. The days we spend on standby are non-productive from a pilot's point of view. However, the company takes a different position; they view them as productive and as such they are used in the staffing formula. This affects staffing by a factor of about 15%!
4) Positioning. When I arrived, I was told to expect to position around 10 hours/month. Up until about 2 months ago, that was pretty true. However, now it's a different story, 40+. We don't get paid for positioning and quite frankly, if you were to get paid, the way the variable component is the computed, it's not a great deal of money. However, it's not "free" as the company would like to think. It still burns "man days" which limits us as to just how much we can fly/month. Plus, if the schedules were efficient, then we'd have more time off..... a big no no!
Anyhow, enough of the ranting. As Milerscourt pointed out, if you 're qualified on the 400, there are, I think, much better positions out there. When I joined there were no others out there. So, my choices were limited to SQC or EK.
Cheers!!!
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Hi Phil,
The cherry picking was not directed at your post, simply a reply to an earlier ref about how "They always get the best". That statement was only partly right and it didn't come from you. As far as your latest, well put, it was dead on what I got today from another source...hmmm...!
Couldn't be.
At any rate I know the way it works (most of the time) but want to wait to see how it goes. Maybe we can hook up in AMS or MAA!
Thanks for putting it out there like you did, hope it gets read.
Cheers
LC
The cherry picking was not directed at your post, simply a reply to an earlier ref about how "They always get the best". That statement was only partly right and it didn't come from you. As far as your latest, well put, it was dead on what I got today from another source...hmmm...!
Couldn't be.
At any rate I know the way it works (most of the time) but want to wait to see how it goes. Maybe we can hook up in AMS or MAA!
Thanks for putting it out there like you did, hope it gets read.
Cheers
LC