SIA CARGO
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millerscourt...ok point taken. Is it really that bad though? At the moment, I am flying for an LCC in Europe....we do alot of hours.....and the pay has
(just recently) become cr¤%#p!
As far as I can judge...an FO in SQ cargo will clear about 10-12G sgd/month......that is almost twice what I clear from present employment!!!
No 13th. month and profit sharing either!!
If I am incorrect...please correct me!
As for retirement....well not yet I guess...´bout 25 years to go.
millerscourt...feel free to write some about the job,
(just recently) become cr¤%#p!
As far as I can judge...an FO in SQ cargo will clear about 10-12G sgd/month......that is almost twice what I clear from present employment!!!
No 13th. month and profit sharing either!! If I am incorrect...please correct me!As for retirement....well not yet I guess...´bout 25 years to go.
millerscourt...feel free to write some about the job,
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readufive I am not saying it is bad but pointing out that you should base your salary expectations on what is guaranteed and not assume that a Bonus will always be paid. The exchange rate is as bad as it will probably get for most currencies but who knows. Ask any Cargo Pilot whether they are getting anything like the S$7000 per month in productivity and Allowances which SQ show as being typical.I doubt it personally on just 50 hrs/month.
I have always advised anyone not to join any expat airline as a F/O except for Cathay where there is a open upgrade policy. With all the rest you are taking a big risk with your career IMO. Just look at EK where DEC's are the order of the day now and in SQ that has always been the policy, so there is no great incentive to upgrade non nationals. If it does not work out where are you going to go after your Bond is over in 5++ years time?( Still a F/O!)
I have always advised anyone not to join any expat airline as a F/O except for Cathay where there is a open upgrade policy. With all the rest you are taking a big risk with your career IMO. Just look at EK where DEC's are the order of the day now and in SQ that has always been the policy, so there is no great incentive to upgrade non nationals. If it does not work out where are you going to go after your Bond is over in 5++ years time?( Still a F/O!)
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millerscourt you are saying it is a big risk take a job as f/o expact pilot but it would be a difference with pic experience in medium jet, at the moment to looking for a job as cap with both heavy F/O and CAP medium jets?.
Last edited by david16; 12th Jun 2006 at 21:12.
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david16 Yes I think it is a big risk joining as a F/O. If you have previous command time that should stand you in good stead I would have thought. I do not know what SQ are telling people like you at interviews. I would guess they would want a minimum of x years and hours on type before considering you for command but you will always be behind nationals. There is no history in SQ yet of dealing with experienced F/O's as in the past expat F/O's were taken in as semi Cadets. Over the years most left after their long Bonds were over ( 7 years I think it was) but a few have got their commands and are still here. One left after 500 hours command on the B777 to go to KAL a few years ago which did not please them!!
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[QUOTE=dabrat]Unfortunately Millerscourt is saying is all true.
The SIA Cargo job is good for Expat Captains( they make on average 18000sgd a month) and only have to fly 40 hours! It is semi retitrement. That is not going to last anyway. The plan is to start working them up to AOC (CAAS limits) which are higher than the Association limits, less time outside Singapore so less money on the daily allowance but more flying hours (which will equate to a little more in flying allowance but less in daily allowance so about the same thing or actually a little less in earnings!) 2 sector Double crews to Europe, minimum rest and back, etc...!!
No more dead heading on the passenger aircraft, will be on the freighter, and many more surprises. the profit sharing is about to change, check the latest advert (it says based on SIA Group AND/OR SIA Cargo)...sneaky..which ever is lower I believe!
QUOTE]
dabrat...
Well, you have some of the facts correct. It's just like semi-retirement (might want to get a dictionary), I'm off just about 14 days a month. Last year's IR8 was better than you might expect for being in semi-retirement.
The plan was to have us fly to the AOC, however, the scheduling computer can't do that, and it's too expensive to change. In addition, a quick look at the aircraft routing shows you can only really get 1-11/2 more days of work out pilots based on the aircraft routings. At no point in the immediate future will Cargo be staffed by only Cargo pilots. Thus, mainline will always have a part of the flying. Having the mainline CA limits just how much can be done. In addition, with rescheduling and other operational issues, what you suggest will never come to pass.
No more deadheading on pax aircraft!!! Dream on. The basic problem is the freighter doesn't fly daily to all the cargo destinations, thus the only way to position the crews is via the pax fleet.
I'd suggest you don't speculate on the profit sharing unless you have a contract. Since you mentioned the ad, here is the link and you can check for yourself. http://www.siacargo.com/First%20Offi...0positions.pdf SATS and SIAEC have the same language, however, just like us (Cargo) this year their bonus is on the entire group's performance. Our profit sharing this year is 3.1 months.
The SIA Cargo job is good for Expat Captains( they make on average 18000sgd a month) and only have to fly 40 hours! It is semi retitrement. That is not going to last anyway. The plan is to start working them up to AOC (CAAS limits) which are higher than the Association limits, less time outside Singapore so less money on the daily allowance but more flying hours (which will equate to a little more in flying allowance but less in daily allowance so about the same thing or actually a little less in earnings!) 2 sector Double crews to Europe, minimum rest and back, etc...!!
No more dead heading on the passenger aircraft, will be on the freighter, and many more surprises. the profit sharing is about to change, check the latest advert (it says based on SIA Group AND/OR SIA Cargo)...sneaky..which ever is lower I believe!
QUOTE]
dabrat...
Well, you have some of the facts correct. It's just like semi-retirement (might want to get a dictionary), I'm off just about 14 days a month. Last year's IR8 was better than you might expect for being in semi-retirement.
The plan was to have us fly to the AOC, however, the scheduling computer can't do that, and it's too expensive to change. In addition, a quick look at the aircraft routing shows you can only really get 1-11/2 more days of work out pilots based on the aircraft routings. At no point in the immediate future will Cargo be staffed by only Cargo pilots. Thus, mainline will always have a part of the flying. Having the mainline CA limits just how much can be done. In addition, with rescheduling and other operational issues, what you suggest will never come to pass.
No more deadheading on pax aircraft!!! Dream on. The basic problem is the freighter doesn't fly daily to all the cargo destinations, thus the only way to position the crews is via the pax fleet.
I'd suggest you don't speculate on the profit sharing unless you have a contract. Since you mentioned the ad, here is the link and you can check for yourself. http://www.siacargo.com/First%20Offi...0positions.pdf SATS and SIAEC have the same language, however, just like us (Cargo) this year their bonus is on the entire group's performance. Our profit sharing this year is 3.1 months.
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Phil, Dabrat and Millerscourt thank you for you comments as Dabrat said it`s not a perfect job but I think the perfect job it does not exist and i see there are different point of views inside de SIAcargo and i respect that, may be for some one who is looking for a professional improvement it could be a good chance.
Thank you guys.
Thank you guys.
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Mainline guys already fly to the AOC limits (1000 hrs ) so there is no difference there.
In any case you cannot get 1000 stick hours out of the mainline people because expat cpts would have to do abt 93 hrs a month to achieve that.
Anything over 85 hrs is going to cost the company $220/hr so that is just not going to happen.
In any case you cannot get 1000 stick hours out of the mainline people because expat cpts would have to do abt 93 hrs a month to achieve that.
Anything over 85 hrs is going to cost the company $220/hr so that is just not going to happen.
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Originally Posted by CARGOJOCK
it appears some CARGO management boys are reading this thread and heeded the requirements if they are to recruit and sustain pilots.
starting with immediate effect the two operations- cargo & pax will be seperated to a great extent in that the cargo lads will fly their service intead of the mainline rats stealing the best of both.
the discrepency of flying was so great that shockwaves had echoed thru the management.
they realised that the cargo lads were been utilised well well below productivity hence the change.
a new circular has been issued informing crew of this change.
this would reflect with the reduction in the cargo lads building frequent flyer miles pax around the world as previously and now starting to fly the mega arks(B744) !!!!!!!!.
starting with immediate effect the two operations- cargo & pax will be seperated to a great extent in that the cargo lads will fly their service intead of the mainline rats stealing the best of both.
the discrepency of flying was so great that shockwaves had echoed thru the management.
they realised that the cargo lads were been utilised well well below productivity hence the change.
a new circular has been issued informing crew of this change.
this would reflect with the reduction in the cargo lads building frequent flyer miles pax around the world as previously and now starting to fly the mega arks(B744) !!!!!!!!.
NOT ONLY READING.....I 'M WONDERING HOW IS POSSIBLE - LEFT COASTER FLIES 75 HOURS AND IS VERY ACTIVE HERE, HM....
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Originally Posted by readufive
millerscourt...thanks for that. I will just have to wait it out
. What is wrong with "only" flying 50 hours/month?? I fly 80-100/month...and I sure don´t think its that funny............anymore
The dudes at the interview were very straightforward regarding the paxing and pay/no-pay.......no surprises.
. What is wrong with "only" flying 50 hours/month?? I fly 80-100/month...and I sure don´t think its that funny............anymore The dudes at the interview were very straightforward regarding the paxing and pay/no-pay.......no surprises.
only this: next 50 h u will fly as pax (50 +50 = 100), :ugh
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Originally Posted by CARGOJOCK
i am a captain with this outfit.
however since there is a silence to the request from what the expat FO have been saying in the flight deck, they fly around 50 hrs a month and PAX 30-40hrs more.
NO CHANCE FOR COMMAND.
however since there is a silence to the request from what the expat FO have been saying in the flight deck, they fly around 50 hrs a month and PAX 30-40hrs more.
NO CHANCE FOR COMMAND.
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NO COMMAND FOR EXPAT F/O
sorry warden,
no offence but the few blokes i have met have not been given command.
yes some fools even changed over to local terms and they jumped from the frying pan in to the fire.
give us a name mate!!!!
yes they promise you that but getting it is a big difference. just remember a command course in SQ goes on for 9 months or more as many locals can barely fly in cat 1 minimums thats why they have many expats.even a 10 kt cross wind is a big achivement for them.
over to you
no offence but the few blokes i have met have not been given command.
yes some fools even changed over to local terms and they jumped from the frying pan in to the fire.
give us a name mate!!!!
yes they promise you that but getting it is a big difference. just remember a command course in SQ goes on for 9 months or more as many locals can barely fly in cat 1 minimums thats why they have many expats.even a 10 kt cross wind is a big achivement for them.
over to you
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I wouldn't argue with most of what you just said CJ, but I would disagree with your comments about local F/Os.
Without exception, every local I have flown with has been professional, enthusiastic and extremely helpful.
Without exception, every local I have flown with has been professional, enthusiastic and extremely helpful.
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Really...Last time I looked it WAS 75 hrs...want a copy of my roster? Sorry its mine...Granted not all months are that high but this one is...Or are you implying something else?
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LC, would you mind quoting how much flying you did each month over the last 12 months?
Management describe the average monthly cargo flying done by Mainline and Cargo Captains as being 67 hours.
If I am doing 25 this month and many Cargo Captains are doing 40 or less, the Mainline guys are doing well over 67 in order to bring the average up to that figure.
Notwithstanding what this disparity means, the word inequality comes to mind, the difficulty is we were told and it remains in writing that the average flying and per diem pay would be $7000 per month.
Many based their calculations on this statement, which is a very fair calculation when assessing the merits of this job over the last job.
As it happens, we are having some difficulty in recruiting Captains and First Officers. It is thought the reasons are to do with remuneration, and that the word is out: the money and flying is not as advertised.
Cargo's Management are considering what changes need to be made, which is a welcome sign.
If you come from a LCC, readufive, that's fine. If you are coming as a First Officer, you have undoubtedly factored in the chances of upgrading to Command. I wish you well.
In that this on-going thread's primary conflict is just a matter of different points of view, as david16 states, I beg to differ.
Perception is subjective, finances are objective. As we are primarily talking about money and flying hours, the matter is not accurately described as merely different points of view.
The website advertisement states quite clearly that pilots can expect to draw an average of $7000 per month in flight pay and per diems.
Objectively, this isn't happening, which is why many pilots are concerned.
Management describe the average monthly cargo flying done by Mainline and Cargo Captains as being 67 hours.
If I am doing 25 this month and many Cargo Captains are doing 40 or less, the Mainline guys are doing well over 67 in order to bring the average up to that figure.
Notwithstanding what this disparity means, the word inequality comes to mind, the difficulty is we were told and it remains in writing that the average flying and per diem pay would be $7000 per month.
Many based their calculations on this statement, which is a very fair calculation when assessing the merits of this job over the last job.
As it happens, we are having some difficulty in recruiting Captains and First Officers. It is thought the reasons are to do with remuneration, and that the word is out: the money and flying is not as advertised.
Cargo's Management are considering what changes need to be made, which is a welcome sign.
If you come from a LCC, readufive, that's fine. If you are coming as a First Officer, you have undoubtedly factored in the chances of upgrading to Command. I wish you well.
In that this on-going thread's primary conflict is just a matter of different points of view, as david16 states, I beg to differ.
Perception is subjective, finances are objective. As we are primarily talking about money and flying hours, the matter is not accurately described as merely different points of view.
The website advertisement states quite clearly that pilots can expect to draw an average of $7000 per month in flight pay and per diems.
Objectively, this isn't happening, which is why many pilots are concerned.
Last edited by 4PW's; 16th Jun 2006 at 21:41.
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Surely...this month is higher than others, and taking into account leave(s) my average since becoming productive works out to 50 per...
I too looked at the advertised flight pay and then took a figure off of it for advertising. Simple experience has jaded me somewhat and after looking at what was offered at other similar operators (and histories in the industry) made the jump. I havent had the full year deal to look at (soon) to finish my books but so far I have no complaints. Those who might look at the amounts quoted as gospel should realise that an airline schedule is liquid, and to think that a paycheck is going to be the same every month is a bit hopeful. Having said that, I do think a more balanced roster needs to be in place, and that efficient planning of scheds has to happen. All in all its just a job, and I learned a long time ago that no matter how much you want it to be perfect, it doesnt quite get there. Hope the system can improve for us all...
Cheers,
I too looked at the advertised flight pay and then took a figure off of it for advertising. Simple experience has jaded me somewhat and after looking at what was offered at other similar operators (and histories in the industry) made the jump. I havent had the full year deal to look at (soon) to finish my books but so far I have no complaints. Those who might look at the amounts quoted as gospel should realise that an airline schedule is liquid, and to think that a paycheck is going to be the same every month is a bit hopeful. Having said that, I do think a more balanced roster needs to be in place, and that efficient planning of scheds has to happen. All in all its just a job, and I learned a long time ago that no matter how much you want it to be perfect, it doesnt quite get there. Hope the system can improve for us all...
Cheers,
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SQ FIRST OFFICERS
dear readers,
SQ first officers are not exposed to real flying. what i mean is they are all well read and conversent with SOP/FCOM this and that procedures, but when it comes to handling they are very marginal.
can you imagine the SQ command course is between 9-12 months. why do you suppose this? average hours before command 6500-7000-P2.
as i said earlier these lads are happy to fly with expats for they learn a lot maybe all no good habits but they learn the most important of all " SELF CONFIDENCE". important they get many sectors when flying with the cargo fleet.
all though SQ treats the Cargo lads with step motherly treatment they appreciate the experience dispersed to the young cadets.
the mainline rats have the highest percentage for "unstable apporaches" are made by these blokes. for them ancourage in winter, carnasie in NY is a major hurdle and stress.
thats why friends, during winter we end up doing most of the demanding landings.
the cargo jocks have a wealth of experience.
think a minute
SQ first officers are not exposed to real flying. what i mean is they are all well read and conversent with SOP/FCOM this and that procedures, but when it comes to handling they are very marginal.
can you imagine the SQ command course is between 9-12 months. why do you suppose this? average hours before command 6500-7000-P2.
as i said earlier these lads are happy to fly with expats for they learn a lot maybe all no good habits but they learn the most important of all " SELF CONFIDENCE". important they get many sectors when flying with the cargo fleet.
all though SQ treats the Cargo lads with step motherly treatment they appreciate the experience dispersed to the young cadets.
the mainline rats have the highest percentage for "unstable apporaches" are made by these blokes. for them ancourage in winter, carnasie in NY is a major hurdle and stress.
thats why friends, during winter we end up doing most of the demanding landings.
the cargo jocks have a wealth of experience.
think a minute
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wasn't it a cargo jock who attempted a flaps up takeoff in HKG last year?
And wasn't it also a cargo jock who configured to Flaps 1 at 8 miles in ANC last year summer.... finally selecting his landing flaps 30 at 192 kts (12 knots above Vfe for F.30), touching down deadstick at 190 kts (50 kts above Vref of 140 kts) without actually having flaps 30 becoz of the flap load relief...?
And wasn't it also a cargo jock who configured to Flaps 1 at 8 miles in ANC last year summer.... finally selecting his landing flaps 30 at 192 kts (12 knots above Vfe for F.30), touching down deadstick at 190 kts (50 kts above Vref of 140 kts) without actually having flaps 30 becoz of the flap load relief...?
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CARGOJOCK
would you care to elaborate further with more details (like what gengis posted) or are you just shooting in the dark.. please either put up factually or , regrettably, shut up!. also please provide elaboration on the "we do most of the tough landings" comment.
cheers
would you care to elaborate further with more details (like what gengis posted) or are you just shooting in the dark.. please either put up factually or , regrettably, shut up!. also please provide elaboration on the "we do most of the tough landings" comment.
cheers