JAL payscales
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Japan
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sounds familiar?
Well I would have to agree whole heartedly with JapJok. I have lived in Japan now for almost 4 years. I came here from Europe with a completely open mind and all seemed to go well until completion of the line training. It was not until established on the line that things started to go south.
Part of the blame surely lies with our contractor. Although our contract specified a minimum of days off and so on, this was never the case. Also accomodation was extremely sub-standard and after engaging the company, the clauses of standard were then removed from the contract. How convenient. Then the company attacked our travel policy, living allowance and cut many things that had been put in writing and agreed upon. The rational for this was that there is a pilot surplus, thus we can chop at will until people decide not to re-sign their contract.
The contracting companies will never stand by their crew as they are more interested in making their monthly commission than rocking the boat.
As most are aware from these forums daily life is difficult in Japan as you are always an outsider. That does not preclude though good relations with your company. If you can integrate as much as possible your life will be more comfortable. The only problem is that from my experience the Japanese management consider all foreign workers as "SLAVES". We are to be used and abused at the discretion of the company. This kind of attitude will always cause undue stress. In my company the Captain is merely a seat warmer. Even low time (1000 hr) F/O's garner more respect than a "gaijin" 10,000hr skipper. If a Captain brings up a tech query it is noted and dealt with. If the same squark was then highlighted on the subsequent leg by the F/O it is mentioned endless times in the endless meetings as a job well done by said F/O in noticing a blade defect etc!!!
Most of the guys you fly with are sound although the practicle common sense is zero. It's SOP only. Don't think - thats the common flaw. Just do it by wrote.... idependant thought is discouraged even though we are pumped full of CRM.
The current situation across Japan company wide seems to be common. Air Japan and JEX CEO's are old friends and the policy is the same. Slash until people leave, then you have the best deal you can get on the "gaijin". Skynet and Skymark are the same. Its all headed downhill like a snowball fellas!
As for me I am hoping to be gone as soon as I can get out. The living conditions for any westerner are testing to say the least. Non - stop noise, audio cessnas and screaming cars in your parking lot at 0800 in the morning have taken their toll. This is for sure a short term job. For anyone considering a long term job, contract stability, lifestyle or the mental wellbeing of a family be warned. Avoid this like the plague.
Best of luck to those who dare...
The mail re the laughable JCAB is also spot on. They have created an image of terror in order to frighten people into compliance.
All checks, line monitors etc that I have ever had with the JCAB have all been with drop kicks from GA. All were ex CAC instructors or bookworms from the filing department with no idea what the hell is involved with an Air Transport Operation.
Most testing question seems to be how many volcanoes in Japan? On land and submerged no less! Wow whatta tuffy! Its lucky everything is done here by rehersal and regurgitation...
As for the racism that has been mentioned previously, it is always there. Look no further than the constant news and newspaper articles about the “foreign crime wave” here. The Mayor of Tokyo Shintaro Ishihara even makes regular public statements to the effect that all foreigners are "sneak thieves", whatever that means? Can you imagine Rudy Guiliani or a mayor from such a similar sized city as Tokyo espousing such racist comments as this? He would be out of a job the next day. It’s just run of the mill here…
Why do you think that the whole of Asia hates the Japanese? Perhaps the Prime Ministers constant prayer visits to the shrine at Yasukuni? The site of class A war criminals? They don\'t care... Japan is not part of Asia as I have often been told. They are all descended directly from the emperor who is himself descended directly from the gods no less!!
So gents, don\'t exect to feel a part of anything here. There are some lovely people to meet ,but, the reality is you are only ever going to be hired help with nothing to say.
If you can handle that then you are the ultimate door mat! Sign up as they are looking to fill the posts of those who have had it.
Part of the blame surely lies with our contractor. Although our contract specified a minimum of days off and so on, this was never the case. Also accomodation was extremely sub-standard and after engaging the company, the clauses of standard were then removed from the contract. How convenient. Then the company attacked our travel policy, living allowance and cut many things that had been put in writing and agreed upon. The rational for this was that there is a pilot surplus, thus we can chop at will until people decide not to re-sign their contract.
The contracting companies will never stand by their crew as they are more interested in making their monthly commission than rocking the boat.
As most are aware from these forums daily life is difficult in Japan as you are always an outsider. That does not preclude though good relations with your company. If you can integrate as much as possible your life will be more comfortable. The only problem is that from my experience the Japanese management consider all foreign workers as "SLAVES". We are to be used and abused at the discretion of the company. This kind of attitude will always cause undue stress. In my company the Captain is merely a seat warmer. Even low time (1000 hr) F/O's garner more respect than a "gaijin" 10,000hr skipper. If a Captain brings up a tech query it is noted and dealt with. If the same squark was then highlighted on the subsequent leg by the F/O it is mentioned endless times in the endless meetings as a job well done by said F/O in noticing a blade defect etc!!!
Most of the guys you fly with are sound although the practicle common sense is zero. It's SOP only. Don't think - thats the common flaw. Just do it by wrote.... idependant thought is discouraged even though we are pumped full of CRM.
The current situation across Japan company wide seems to be common. Air Japan and JEX CEO's are old friends and the policy is the same. Slash until people leave, then you have the best deal you can get on the "gaijin". Skynet and Skymark are the same. Its all headed downhill like a snowball fellas!
As for me I am hoping to be gone as soon as I can get out. The living conditions for any westerner are testing to say the least. Non - stop noise, audio cessnas and screaming cars in your parking lot at 0800 in the morning have taken their toll. This is for sure a short term job. For anyone considering a long term job, contract stability, lifestyle or the mental wellbeing of a family be warned. Avoid this like the plague.
Best of luck to those who dare...
The mail re the laughable JCAB is also spot on. They have created an image of terror in order to frighten people into compliance.
All checks, line monitors etc that I have ever had with the JCAB have all been with drop kicks from GA. All were ex CAC instructors or bookworms from the filing department with no idea what the hell is involved with an Air Transport Operation.
Most testing question seems to be how many volcanoes in Japan? On land and submerged no less! Wow whatta tuffy! Its lucky everything is done here by rehersal and regurgitation...
As for the racism that has been mentioned previously, it is always there. Look no further than the constant news and newspaper articles about the “foreign crime wave” here. The Mayor of Tokyo Shintaro Ishihara even makes regular public statements to the effect that all foreigners are "sneak thieves", whatever that means? Can you imagine Rudy Guiliani or a mayor from such a similar sized city as Tokyo espousing such racist comments as this? He would be out of a job the next day. It’s just run of the mill here…
Why do you think that the whole of Asia hates the Japanese? Perhaps the Prime Ministers constant prayer visits to the shrine at Yasukuni? The site of class A war criminals? They don\'t care... Japan is not part of Asia as I have often been told. They are all descended directly from the emperor who is himself descended directly from the gods no less!!
So gents, don\'t exect to feel a part of anything here. There are some lovely people to meet ,but, the reality is you are only ever going to be hired help with nothing to say.
If you can handle that then you are the ultimate door mat! Sign up as they are looking to fill the posts of those who have had it.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You guys must be brits or aussies. I'm a yankee. I know some yanks that work through Hawaii Aviation and IASCO. No problems. What contract company do you guys work for?
Where the #ell were you guys living anyway...off the runway at Narita? Tokyo is an awesome city. The women, food, nightlife...is better than anyplace in the world. Japan knows how to party and they like to hang out with foreigners.
As far as racism issues, the Japanese who are Gen-X and younger tend to be more open and worldly...never encountered any racism what so ever. I think many westerners are nervous because for once in their lives, they are the minority. You want to see racism at it's finest, try comming over here to the States.
Again, I'm sorry your contract experience was a negative one.
BUT DONT GENERALIZE ABOUT THE WHOLE COUNTRY. There are many that have found Japan to be an inviting place to live.
Where the #ell were you guys living anyway...off the runway at Narita? Tokyo is an awesome city. The women, food, nightlife...is better than anyplace in the world. Japan knows how to party and they like to hang out with foreigners.
As far as racism issues, the Japanese who are Gen-X and younger tend to be more open and worldly...never encountered any racism what so ever. I think many westerners are nervous because for once in their lives, they are the minority. You want to see racism at it's finest, try comming over here to the States.
Again, I'm sorry your contract experience was a negative one.
BUT DONT GENERALIZE ABOUT THE WHOLE COUNTRY. There are many that have found Japan to be an inviting place to live.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: SE Asia and thereabouts!
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JJ!
You really do seem to have some sort of problem, and I was merely trying to provide theraputic advice to assist you in purging some of the issues that appear to be troubling you. After all a happy JJ will be in the best interests of everyone.
Subsequent to my first post and your rather turgid and bitter response, I would like to revise my original prescription and suggest that you now add at the least a litre of high octane gasoline to the stick of dynamite. I think this should have the desired effect.
Sadly you seem to be devoid of even the smallest fragment of a sense of humour and one even gets the impression that you have some hang-ups of your own. I suppose I try to have a sense of humour as refelcted in my nom de plume, and rather than being an egocentric fool who believes that my crap does not stink, I can have a bit of a laugh at myself and the taboos that pervade everyday society. After all, we have all been asked to bend over and take it at some stage during our working life!
I will now cuddle up to my wonderful wife (yes, she's Japanese) and ponder what it is about these "gaijin" wankers that come to Japan and insist that if it's not done like it is at home, then we are being cheated or some such rot. As Stereolab noted, the Japanese are a very reasonable people and by the tone of ALL your posts, I have no doubts about why you have failed to develop a viable workable relationship with your employers
By the way, do you need a match?
BD
You really do seem to have some sort of problem, and I was merely trying to provide theraputic advice to assist you in purging some of the issues that appear to be troubling you. After all a happy JJ will be in the best interests of everyone.
Subsequent to my first post and your rather turgid and bitter response, I would like to revise my original prescription and suggest that you now add at the least a litre of high octane gasoline to the stick of dynamite. I think this should have the desired effect.
Sadly you seem to be devoid of even the smallest fragment of a sense of humour and one even gets the impression that you have some hang-ups of your own. I suppose I try to have a sense of humour as refelcted in my nom de plume, and rather than being an egocentric fool who believes that my crap does not stink, I can have a bit of a laugh at myself and the taboos that pervade everyday society. After all, we have all been asked to bend over and take it at some stage during our working life!
I will now cuddle up to my wonderful wife (yes, she's Japanese) and ponder what it is about these "gaijin" wankers that come to Japan and insist that if it's not done like it is at home, then we are being cheated or some such rot. As Stereolab noted, the Japanese are a very reasonable people and by the tone of ALL your posts, I have no doubts about why you have failed to develop a viable workable relationship with your employers
By the way, do you need a match?
BD
Last edited by Capt. Ben Dover; 7th Nov 2004 at 08:22.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Japan
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stereolab, if those guys you speak of are with Air Japan, ask those FO's whose contracts included a clause that theywould be upgraded in the first contract period. The management has told them they won t be in violation of their contract. Is Hawaiian aviationdoing anything about it? No. That would make them about as bad as Rishworth and a few others amongst the parasitic recruiting companies.
Those who found Japan an inviting place to live; were they from Bangladesh, Zimbabwe maybe.
Re your comment on honor, there is no honor here. You're on the wrong continent.
I work with an American and a recent statement was "I wish we Americans were a bit/lot more racist like these people and then we wouldn't be the suckers weare for every %$#& who wants to live in the greatest country in the world."
Bend Over, we all have our problems. You married one,so deal with it; don't tell us. We can probably organzie a sympathycard if we do a whip around and it would make you feel better.
Incidentally 'turgid' is a good word; bombastic or rhetorical. Ilike it.
I don't insist that it be done like it is at home, but I do insist that it be done in accordance with my contract, and the pricks will for my remaining few months.
Those who found Japan an inviting place to live; were they from Bangladesh, Zimbabwe maybe.
Re your comment on honor, there is no honor here. You're on the wrong continent.
I work with an American and a recent statement was "I wish we Americans were a bit/lot more racist like these people and then we wouldn't be the suckers weare for every %$#& who wants to live in the greatest country in the world."
Bend Over, we all have our problems. You married one,so deal with it; don't tell us. We can probably organzie a sympathycard if we do a whip around and it would make you feel better.
Incidentally 'turgid' is a good word; bombastic or rhetorical. Ilike it.
I don't insist that it be done like it is at home, but I do insist that it be done in accordance with my contract, and the pricks will for my remaining few months.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Japjok
I have heard from others about the problems with the contracts. It is quite unacceptable, both from the airline and the contracter. It sounds pretty bad. I cant comment on the flying aspect as I have not been able to fly in Japan.
However I do disagree with other comments you make. I have found the Japanese to be very honorable, much more so than people in other countries I have lived in. Aviation everywhere is a nasty business.
Jap is insulting. It is not the same as ozzie, yank or pom. Many Australians call themselves ozzies, the Americans named a baseball team the Yankees. No Japanese call themselves Japs.
There are tens, if not hun dreds of thousands of Koreans here, third and fourth generations born in Japan, and not permitted to ever hold citizenship nor their descendants.
This is just not true. Look at Masayoshi Son, founder of Softbank and at one time one of the richest men in the world. His grandparents are Korean and he was a Japanese citizen long before he became rich. Becoming a citizen in Japan is actually easier than in many western countries.
don't have a racist bonein my body
The Japs have taken lying to a whole new level, and are the most dishonest, duplicitious and devious people you will ever deal with. They make the Arabs looks like saints.
You are contradicting yourself.
If it happened in the Us or most otherplaces in the civilized world ...
Maybe I am wrong but you seem to be implying that Japan is not civilised. In actuality is is one of the oldest civilised nations, long before the white man invaded America.
As for your friend`s comment, I wish we Americans were a bit/lot more racist like these people and then we wouldn't be the suckers weare for every %$#& who wants to live in the greatest country in the world."
Give me a break!!! I have lived in both countries. Everytime I enter Japan immigration takes a very short time and ends with `Welcome to Japan`. Entering the US takes hours and is very rude and insulting. If you look lost on the streets of Japan or at the train station people will go out of their way to help you and talk with you. Try that in the states! If anyone gives you directions at all they are likely to be wrong.
It sounds like you were treated really badly by your airline and by the company that hired you. It is very helpful to others that you are passing this on and I thank you. However much of your writing comes across as a rascist diatribe and clouds whatever useful information you have.
nz
I have heard from others about the problems with the contracts. It is quite unacceptable, both from the airline and the contracter. It sounds pretty bad. I cant comment on the flying aspect as I have not been able to fly in Japan.
However I do disagree with other comments you make. I have found the Japanese to be very honorable, much more so than people in other countries I have lived in. Aviation everywhere is a nasty business.
Jap is insulting. It is not the same as ozzie, yank or pom. Many Australians call themselves ozzies, the Americans named a baseball team the Yankees. No Japanese call themselves Japs.
There are tens, if not hun dreds of thousands of Koreans here, third and fourth generations born in Japan, and not permitted to ever hold citizenship nor their descendants.
This is just not true. Look at Masayoshi Son, founder of Softbank and at one time one of the richest men in the world. His grandparents are Korean and he was a Japanese citizen long before he became rich. Becoming a citizen in Japan is actually easier than in many western countries.
don't have a racist bonein my body
The Japs have taken lying to a whole new level, and are the most dishonest, duplicitious and devious people you will ever deal with. They make the Arabs looks like saints.
You are contradicting yourself.
If it happened in the Us or most otherplaces in the civilized world ...
Maybe I am wrong but you seem to be implying that Japan is not civilised. In actuality is is one of the oldest civilised nations, long before the white man invaded America.
As for your friend`s comment, I wish we Americans were a bit/lot more racist like these people and then we wouldn't be the suckers weare for every %$#& who wants to live in the greatest country in the world."
Give me a break!!! I have lived in both countries. Everytime I enter Japan immigration takes a very short time and ends with `Welcome to Japan`. Entering the US takes hours and is very rude and insulting. If you look lost on the streets of Japan or at the train station people will go out of their way to help you and talk with you. Try that in the states! If anyone gives you directions at all they are likely to be wrong.
It sounds like you were treated really badly by your airline and by the company that hired you. It is very helpful to others that you are passing this on and I thank you. However much of your writing comes across as a rascist diatribe and clouds whatever useful information you have.
nz
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Asia
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JapJok,
Jeez man, chill out.
I have a similar read on the situation as yourself, however, you are letting your emotions get the better of you.
Japan certainly is, to say the least, a rather interesting part of the aviation world. I work for one of the companies you mentioned, however, our maintenance appears impeccable.
Yes, we do put up with a lot of crap, however, in the end, as long as they keep giving away the odd BD most of us are pretty much happy to put up with the misunderstandings in the contract etc.
There will be a fair exodus of pilots from our company in the coming 6 months I'm sure. We all keep an eye out for a better alternative and act when the time is right. Fortunately the Japanese license is a valuable commodity and as long as you can find the right job and keep the bull**** deflector deployed, it ain't all that bad considering the options. Our lot are looking to cut back in areas in the future, they have a big shock coming I believe.
You have found Japan a big eye opener as have most of us. Can I suggest you look upon your experiences as part of life's rich tapestry and move on.
Our mates at Virgin take a fair bit of crap, work far too hard for my liking ( we fly about 55 average per month) and are not as well remunerated as our good selves.
I do agree that the younger generation are quite friendly and accepting of us.
It could be a s*** load worse mate.
Jeez man, chill out.
I have a similar read on the situation as yourself, however, you are letting your emotions get the better of you.
Japan certainly is, to say the least, a rather interesting part of the aviation world. I work for one of the companies you mentioned, however, our maintenance appears impeccable.
Yes, we do put up with a lot of crap, however, in the end, as long as they keep giving away the odd BD most of us are pretty much happy to put up with the misunderstandings in the contract etc.
There will be a fair exodus of pilots from our company in the coming 6 months I'm sure. We all keep an eye out for a better alternative and act when the time is right. Fortunately the Japanese license is a valuable commodity and as long as you can find the right job and keep the bull**** deflector deployed, it ain't all that bad considering the options. Our lot are looking to cut back in areas in the future, they have a big shock coming I believe.
You have found Japan a big eye opener as have most of us. Can I suggest you look upon your experiences as part of life's rich tapestry and move on.
Our mates at Virgin take a fair bit of crap, work far too hard for my liking ( we fly about 55 average per month) and are not as well remunerated as our good selves.
I do agree that the younger generation are quite friendly and accepting of us.
It could be a s*** load worse mate.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Scandinavia
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stereolab, I too have been to Japan on vacation and thought it OK...... but you have obviously not experienced working for them,
Jap Jok has, and if he is as wound up as he sounds then it might be worth listening to him . maybe you would change your mind if you worked there... I always listen to people who have done it not wannabes sorry Mate have to take Jap Joks side here
Jap Jok has, and if he is as wound up as he sounds then it might be worth listening to him . maybe you would change your mind if you worked there... I always listen to people who have done it not wannabes sorry Mate have to take Jap Joks side here
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Japan
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RR, believe me my friend I'm not wound up but a contract is a contract and I will not tolerate breaches. Simple as that. They wouldn't so why should I??
I make no reservations; these are the worst people to work for regarding contract violations, and they are obsessive, compulsive liars. I can be no kinder. I have spoken with a lot of foreign pilots on contract with Japanese companies and their experiences are the same. They are liars. And vindictive if they don't agree with your position.
Founder of softbank maybe a Japanese citizen, but there are tens of thousands of Koreans wh owill never be. I work with some and have been told the story. They hold alien cards just as we do.
Whoever commented on my statement that I do not have a racist bone in my body and tried to read racism into is gras ping at straws. I haven't said I actually dislike the Japanese. I did say they have made me dislike Japan (the being here) because of their behaviour.
And yes the younger generation are more tolerant of westerners than the older. Quite a number of the guys have established that.
On that note I asked a number of colleagues whether they found Jap offensive. Younger ones didn't, but they said the older ones would. They were called %$$#^ Japs by the occupying powers in the late 40sand can't get over it. Many other countries overcame far greater problems, but the Japanese have difficulty with some name calling, and I suppose that says something about the people.
As for my implication that it is not a civilized country, read into it what you will. India was among the more advanced civilizations 500 years ago also.
Would I encourage any pilot to come here on a contract? No, never!!! It's just not worth the hassles. The idiots at JCAB make sure of that if the other issues don't. I still haven't established how many active volcanoes there are in Japan because each JCAB 'inspector' has a different number depending on whether the submarine ones are included. Nor have I discovered definitively whether the BaiU front is warm or cold.
You will carry the parasites round in the jumpseat as though it s their private taxi service,so they can claim flight payas they head off for their dirty weekends out of To kyo. I had some d***head mechanic ask me for my licence a few days back. He wouldn't know what a licence looked like but they have to wield the power, and to see company managements bobbing up and down, like pigeons on heat, to them is just humiliating to watch.
Anyway, this is way off topic, and I'm as guilty as anybody else and maybe more so for putting it there.
I suggest if we want to discuss flying in Japan generally, the pros and cons, that we start a new thread. Maybe a cut and past e from this thread could kick it off.
I make no reservations; these are the worst people to work for regarding contract violations, and they are obsessive, compulsive liars. I can be no kinder. I have spoken with a lot of foreign pilots on contract with Japanese companies and their experiences are the same. They are liars. And vindictive if they don't agree with your position.
Founder of softbank maybe a Japanese citizen, but there are tens of thousands of Koreans wh owill never be. I work with some and have been told the story. They hold alien cards just as we do.
Whoever commented on my statement that I do not have a racist bone in my body and tried to read racism into is gras ping at straws. I haven't said I actually dislike the Japanese. I did say they have made me dislike Japan (the being here) because of their behaviour.
And yes the younger generation are more tolerant of westerners than the older. Quite a number of the guys have established that.
On that note I asked a number of colleagues whether they found Jap offensive. Younger ones didn't, but they said the older ones would. They were called %$$#^ Japs by the occupying powers in the late 40sand can't get over it. Many other countries overcame far greater problems, but the Japanese have difficulty with some name calling, and I suppose that says something about the people.
As for my implication that it is not a civilized country, read into it what you will. India was among the more advanced civilizations 500 years ago also.
Would I encourage any pilot to come here on a contract? No, never!!! It's just not worth the hassles. The idiots at JCAB make sure of that if the other issues don't. I still haven't established how many active volcanoes there are in Japan because each JCAB 'inspector' has a different number depending on whether the submarine ones are included. Nor have I discovered definitively whether the BaiU front is warm or cold.
You will carry the parasites round in the jumpseat as though it s their private taxi service,so they can claim flight payas they head off for their dirty weekends out of To kyo. I had some d***head mechanic ask me for my licence a few days back. He wouldn't know what a licence looked like but they have to wield the power, and to see company managements bobbing up and down, like pigeons on heat, to them is just humiliating to watch.
Anyway, this is way off topic, and I'm as guilty as anybody else and maybe more so for putting it there.
I suggest if we want to discuss flying in Japan generally, the pros and cons, that we start a new thread. Maybe a cut and past e from this thread could kick it off.
Last edited by JapJok; 15th Nov 2004 at 23:15.
