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Pilot fatigue...a victory, of sorts

Old 31st Dec 2016, 15:23
  #121 (permalink)  
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According the Judgement he emailed the Chief Pilot and asked how it had been planned.
Judgement states The claimant asked on a number of occasions for information on how the flight was planned to come within the maximum FDP. The respondent never provided him with this information and has given no satisfactory explanation as to why they did not do so.

The reason the Chief Pilot says he never replied to the direct question was..taken directly from the judgement "When asked by the Judge
why no one went back to the claimant about his question as to how the duty time of12 hours 30 was arrived at, which the claimant again raised in the pack he produced and sent to Mr Scadeng prior to the disciplinary hearing, Mr Scadeng replied that he viewed the email of 7”‘ May as about fatigue and his view about the rest was that it was “intended as entrapment” and that they needed to be cautious

Also I have heard ( so not seen the plogs to confirm ) but apparently the difference between the Roster times and the Block times on the day was nearly an hour, so if true not talking only a "few mins". Also again from what I have heard, it was a net tailwind for the whole duty.

I wonder why they never got back to him
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Old 1st Jan 2017, 05:06
  #122 (permalink)  
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Are the any proceedings still.....proceeding?
If this has been wound up without the judge requiring the question to be answered then it is a real shame. The judge should require the details of how the FDP was arrived at and any laws broken during the creation of the plan should have been charged. Those responsible need to be held responsible.
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Old 4th Jan 2017, 09:52
  #123 (permalink)  
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Looking at this article

The Man Who Pays His Way: Let sleeping pilots lie ? You're more at risk on the motorway | The Independent

This dates back to 2007 and we are now in 2017, seems the same story everytime and yet nothing is being done to iron out this dangerous situation.

A quote from that article

When a pilot reports for duty, he or she is assumed to be in full control of their faculties. If they are not, then it is their sole responsibility to declare themselves unfit to work. Airlines uniformly say that they would take no action against any pilot saying that they were too tired to work. According to the Balpa survey, one in three said that they would refuse to fly but would fear disciplinary action. A further one in eight said that they would not declare their fatigue out of fear for their job. They say that they are obliged to be more productive than ever, flying up to six sectors a day.

Clearly for reporting fatique you do face disciplinary with initially no support from your union. I hope this case recently restores some form of confidence by holding ALL those to account and not simply brushed aside.
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Old 4th Jan 2017, 13:41
  #124 (permalink)  
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Club World, well I don't think you can get any clearer than the Judgement quoting the CP disciplinary letter.
“You dishonestly stated that the reason for refusing that duty was fatigue” “you were dishonest in asserting that the reason for refusing the duty of 7th May 2014 was the onset of fatigue on 6th. This raises very serious concerns regarding integrity, and the trust and confidence that the Company must have in its Commanders. With this in
mind I find that the appropriate sanction would be dismissal.”

Does anyone know if those concerned have been sacked yet over this?
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Old 4th Jan 2017, 15:56
  #125 (permalink)  
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Well that's just it, it may be early days, but so far there doesn't appear to be any accountability, seems like the old boys club reunite once again.
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Old 4th Jan 2017, 20:42
  #126 (permalink)  
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A junior house doctor at the end of a 19-hour-shift, who works in an industry that also deals in matters of life and death, will look enviously at the limit on pilots' hours, which permits only 900 duty hours a year – corresponding to less than two-and-a-half hours a day.
900 duty hours a year, lol
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Old 5th Jan 2017, 02:35
  #127 (permalink)  
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My company has a Fatigue Risk Management System which has made a few changes as a result of multiple fatigue reports. Despite these successes, we still do not get a clear picture of how much fatigue there is in the company as pilots are still reluctant to report. It's not out of fear - we have a clearly defined just culture and reporters will not be targeted for retribution. It's laziness. I hear the comment "there's no point in reporting as nothing gets done" all the time. Nothing gets changed because people don't report. Our FRMS is a data driven system - it doesn't work on anecdotes. If people don't report, then the company doesn't believe there is a fatigue problem and the rosters will get worse.
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Old 5th Jan 2017, 09:01
  #128 (permalink)  
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Nothing gets changed because people don't report. If people don't report, then the company doesn't believe there is a problem.

Amazing; that was cry from my company in early 80's. It didn't matter what the subject was; people had the perception that nothing was done so they didn't report. The company then said there was no problem. It could have been accommodation, crew transport, crew food, rosters, defect clearance etc.
It could be a company's response to a few grumps is to ignore and do nothing in the hope it goes away. Guess what; crews become lazy and the problems go away; or so it seems.
Disappointing that such behaviour still is alive.
Putin is excellent at it. Deny everything and have more stamina than the protestors: then they will find something else to protest about where they sense some success.
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Old 5th Jan 2017, 14:11
  #129 (permalink)  
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If people don't report, then the company doesn't believe there is a fatigue problem and the rosters will get worse
True, and a healthy reporting system is an important element in a safety system. However, there are other elements, and the notion that an absence of data (reports) is an endorsement of an organisations policies and practises is unwise. It is not reasonable for say, management, to assume the system performs well from a safety point of view if there are no adverse, reported events.

It is encumbent on the operator to ensure a safe system and manner of operation, and this comes before data is generated, sifted and interpreted and in hand with oversight from the regulator.

The move towards data led safety systems(such as FRMS) DOES NOT REMOVE the responsibility of an operator to think reasonably and it appears there are those that are using the need for reports and data as a convenient delay before taking effective action to mitigate poor EU FTLs.

The fundamental, intrinsic value of safety data is that it allows you to convince the non aviation types populating airline boards that something presents a risk to the business and needs addressing. The need for sound judgement and decision making at Ops management level has not been replaced.

If the stop end lights appear brighter than usual it may not be necessary to anaylse the runway dimensions in detail, other clues are available
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Old 5th Jan 2017, 18:05
  #130 (permalink)  
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Club World
You have hit the nail on the head - there is more chance of a fatigue related accident driving home.
The risk of one in the air is low, but the consequences high.
The risk of one on the ground is higher, but the consequences low.

The other truth is Pilots are more protected in the UK than in Europe despite the level playing field of EASA FTL so give some credit to the CAA / BALPA and perhaps even those nasty Airlines.
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Old 5th Jan 2017, 18:30
  #131 (permalink)  
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There is an understanding of why pilots push the boundaries. It has been discussed in accidents - the 'why did they continue on?' I've been there done that with horrendous rosters; thinking about them afterwards. I was fit, young and enthusiastic. In small companies there was the "let's help the company' attitude. Too late before the many realised they had been shafted, and the few had a 'told you so' look on their faces.
Pilots are mission orientated and in a vocational profession. Admitting you can't complete the mission is not in the DNA of many. It's very sad when that is abused by the top dogs and not appreciated when it happens. As we grew older we realised this and took a step back and said no; not anymore. Then we became an uncooperative trouble maker. Fortunately there were some who had enough backbone, helped by finances, to stand firm. Guess what; a little push back, when on solid ground, worked. Sadly, too few over the decades have done that.
More power to their cause and shame on the managers who expect anything else than true professionalism.
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Old 6th Jan 2017, 10:59
  #132 (permalink)  
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Remember sitting in a taxi once positioning from NCL to LHR. The Capt. (management) was having a real pop the NCL pilots because they were not working days off, (hence we were covering the flights). They were not flying days off because they were basically knackered. How funny therefore when this chap goes apoplectic with the taxi driver for driving over the rumble strips a few times,telling him he shouldn't be driving if he tired. This prat then continues to lay into the NCL guys for not being "company men". That, I think says it all.
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Old 6th Jan 2017, 13:30
  #133 (permalink)  
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I once flew for a small charter company, overseas, where the "let's help the company" attitude was prevalent amongst crews. I later discovered it was a flying club for this who could not join the larger local outfits. T's & C's were poor compared to the locals, but there was no leverage from the crews as management knew the score. There was supposed to be a structured roster, but it changed daily due to crew call outs. If you flew a SBY, the next day was changed and the domino effect went through the whole weeks plan.
I later heard the CFO budgeted for minimum crews and absolute minimum SBY's on the basis that he expected crews to work on days off. After 3 years of no pay rise the guys & gals eventually got the picture; just before the company folded. We later discovered the managers had raided the so-called pension fund and waltzed off with full pockets.
So after 3 years of knackered flying and destroyed social life to "help the company" we all realised we'd been shafted.
In the Phoenix that rose from the ashes it was declared up front that working on days off was a no no unless it was absolutely unpressurised & voluntary and with the day off returned PLUS a compensation day of the crew's choosing. At least that saved the company any money cash flow issues. The crews had finally grown a pair.
There are company guys and company guys, and often the real ones are not at the top. The coal face guys need to protect their balance in work/family life because no-one else will. Managers & EASA are more concerned with balance sheets.
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Old 11th Jan 2017, 11:01
  #134 (permalink)  
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Not applicable to some degree to the "forgotten" pilots in this world.

How to nap successfully at work - BBC News
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Old 20th Jan 2017, 18:07
  #135 (permalink)  
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Someone said 99.9% of pilots are spineless in this matter.

That is an opinion.

I suspect the sentiment behind the post is correct.

What bothers me is the abject lack of support for the - hypothetical - 0.01% who do have a spine.

Are they supported?

Do the 99.9% look up to these people who stand up for the industry??

In my experience they are swamped by the industry, management, the total disinterest of the regulator, and the acceptance and fatalistic attitude of MOST trade unions.

There can't be a pilot in the UK who has not been pressured into discretion at some time in his / her career. It is a common issue that should unite any red-blooded group of pilots.

And yet a guy who stands up for himself is hung out to dry.

If you want to know why unions are non-effective in the UK, this is the best example you will find in recent history.

"Shut up and keep your head down".

Company wins every time - unless you are brave and have GUTS.
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Old 20th Jan 2017, 21:24
  #136 (permalink)  
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I would hope that those responsible are held to account, at the least surely they must be suspended pending an internal company investigation and example made of them, I would be shell shocked if these individuals were still continuing in their role after all this, if that is the case then surely all pilots should sign a strong petition to the CEO stating they have no confidence in their leadership and demand they go.
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Old 21st Jan 2017, 10:09
  #137 (permalink)  
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all pilots should sign a strong petition to the CEO stating they have no confidence in their leadership and demand they go.

That would require the 0.01% conducting a 'quiet behind the scenes' sounding out of the other 99.9% unreliable sheep. You'd have to have known support before raising head above parapet. If not it risks being shot off at the next check ride.

An indication of the attitude of XAA's & management is this: in short-haul european operations there is now an approved procedure for strategic 'controlled rest' in the cockpit. The procedure is written in Ops manuals and the conditions and methods are specific. Now ask yourself; what is going on in short-haul operations such that is thought necessary to use controlled rest in the work place so that the crew is up to par and awake for the subsequent approach & landing?
Over 25 years ago the EU bought in the workers' directive. This included regulations for workers to take work breaks at regular intervals and other features e.g. meal breaks both from their place of work. Neil Kinnock was the EU transport commissioner and he recognised that public transport vehicles did not offer such opportunities. Trains, buses, coaches, aeroplanes. It was stipulated that until such opportunities were possible the companies had to introduce compensatory measures, otherwise public transport workers would be disadvantaged and treated unfavourably compared to the general workforce.
Guess what: it never happened and aviation FTL's became worse than during that period 25 years ago. And what did the unions do to insist on those compensatory measures? Nothing.
So here we have it; short-haul routes that are 5.30hours in each direction and controlled rest in the seat.
A travesty or what? And just where did the pressure come from not only to ignore the introduction of compensatory measures, but also the lengthening of FTL's? Answers on a postcard to.............
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Old 21st Jan 2017, 18:19
  #138 (permalink)  
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If the only recourse is going to court - as it seems you are not permitted to complain, or raise a safety issue - then the risk associated with pilot fatigue is only likely going to increase.

Is this what the industry wants for itself?


Unless I am mistaken, in the case in question, the gentleman claimed he was / would be fatigued, and was called a liar for making the claim!

The company's own FRMS agreed with him, and yet the regulator still stand and watch as someone gets sacrificed in this way.

Fly while fatigued and you are a criminal / don't fly when potentially fatigued and you get sacked.

Not much wriggle room on this subject, is there??

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Old 21st Jan 2017, 19:42
  #139 (permalink)  
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Does automation induce fatigue.

Can there be any doubt that increasingly more and more functions that would otherwise have been carried out by humans are allocated to machines. Aviation is no exception to this. In fact it is fast becoming one of the top in rankings for automation dependency.

Yes we do know and accept that lack of rest, adequate sleep, build up of sleep debt leads to fatigue. But I would submit, so does inactivity which causes lethargy, boredom and impairs alertness and attentiveness.

Here is a quote : " Hard work never killed a man. Men die of boredom, psychological conflict, and disease. They do not die of hard work". David Ogilvy said it. He had worked in the kitchens of a famous hotel in Paris and was a super door to door salesman selling the sort of posh cookers ( that are now so vogue as pride of place exhibits in pseudo farm cottages) to nuns, drunks and all manner of folk in between.

So maybe too much yawning, belly aching, moaning and whinging may bring forward the day of the one pilot-system monitor before he/she is also replaced with a super duper, all singing dancing computer, with artificial intelligence to boot. Whatever that may be.
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Old 22nd Jan 2017, 08:22
  #140 (permalink)  
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Yes we do know and accept that lack of rest, adequate sleep, build up of sleep debt leads to fatigue. But I would submit, so does inactivity which causes lethargy, boredom and impairs alertness and attentiveness.
The current line of thinking is that the act of monitoring ( looking at gauges and screens) is in itself, tiring/ fatiguing due to ' repetitive cognitive effort'.
Makes sense to me. It explains why after a long period of intensely monitoring the automatics in the cruise as weather is negotiated one can feel quite exhausted after the duty. The automatics have done it all, but it is more tiring than a normal flight.
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