Mixed Flight Crew (m/f) a Human Factors Issue in any airline ?
Hovering AND talking
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It's not that it's a verboten subject but that it's been done to death before.
There MAY be some general differences between men and women but they are just that; general. Some women have more testosterone than others and some men have more oestrogen than others. Whilst their sexuality is not in question, the way in which they think may not follow the "conventions".
Therefore, if you treat everyone as an individual with their own quirks and personality, you'll get along just fine.
Cheers
Whirls
There MAY be some general differences between men and women but they are just that; general. Some women have more testosterone than others and some men have more oestrogen than others. Whilst their sexuality is not in question, the way in which they think may not follow the "conventions".
Therefore, if you treat everyone as an individual with their own quirks and personality, you'll get along just fine.
Cheers
Whirls
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Mixed Flt Deck
Perhaps you should direct a few questions to ex Dan Air crews. Ask about Captain Yvonne Pope, 1st Female UK Airline Captain in 1975, also 1st Jet Capt. Yvonne also was the 1st UK Female ATCO in 1960.
All the folks that I knew who flew with Yvonne, had no problems it seems.
I seem to remember that People Express (may be Braniff) had the 1st B747 Female Capt to chug across the OGIN EWR/LGW, correct me if I'm wrong SVP.
The name Rippelmeir (prob incorrect spelling) comes to mind.
Does this not reflect this really stupid PC attitude which has crept in to all aspects of todays life? Surely good CRM applies in the air, as it does on the ground, irrespective of gender?
All the folks that I knew who flew with Yvonne, had no problems it seems.
I seem to remember that People Express (may be Braniff) had the 1st B747 Female Capt to chug across the OGIN EWR/LGW, correct me if I'm wrong SVP.
The name Rippelmeir (prob incorrect spelling) comes to mind.
Does this not reflect this really stupid PC attitude which has crept in to all aspects of todays life? Surely good CRM applies in the air, as it does on the ground, irrespective of gender?
Last edited by merlinxx; 14th Nov 2007 at 03:56. Reason: Add
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As the eminently wealthy (56p) Whirlygig pointed out, this subject has come up many times on pprune. It would be interesting to know how many times the subject was brought up by the female of the pilot species. I would wager the 56p that it is mainly brought up by the male portion of the pilot species.
How would RvB like to see this finally dealt with? Ban all females from the cockpit? How about banning all males from the cockpit? Or banning mixed sex cockpits? Why not go the whole hog and ban mixed sex, mixed race and mixed religion cockpits. There, that should solve all and any issues... Right?
Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? But is that what you are ultimately suggesting? How else do you propose to finally deal with the problem that you perceive?
Alternatively, address the problem directly on the day with the person beside you in the cockpit regardless of race, religion or sex. If you, RvB, find you have repeated problems with numberous female pilots, you might want look within yourself and ask if the problem begins there.
As Shakespeare said, "Much Ado About Nothing"....
How would RvB like to see this finally dealt with? Ban all females from the cockpit? How about banning all males from the cockpit? Or banning mixed sex cockpits? Why not go the whole hog and ban mixed sex, mixed race and mixed religion cockpits. There, that should solve all and any issues... Right?
Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? But is that what you are ultimately suggesting? How else do you propose to finally deal with the problem that you perceive?
Alternatively, address the problem directly on the day with the person beside you in the cockpit regardless of race, religion or sex. If you, RvB, find you have repeated problems with numberous female pilots, you might want look within yourself and ask if the problem begins there.
As Shakespeare said, "Much Ado About Nothing"....
Last edited by fernytickles; 14th Nov 2007 at 14:45.
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Ladies/Gentlemen;
If one goes back to the early days of studying the crew environment in an aircraft cockpit and the evolving process to todays CRM. we know that the three main points initiated were,
Interpersonal Communication
Leadership
Decision Making
Time showed that technical skills were not a primary consideration, however cognitive and interpersonal communications were primary in the successful management of an aircrew.
It is not a long jump to extrapolate and deal with the word EGO. probably the most limiting factor in any people management scenario.
The old story goes, "In a group of people, if there is an asshole standing around, he is usually in my shoes".
Barring major cultural differences which may require more understanding and training, if the EGO factor is honestly evaluated by every member of the crew, management becomes much more effective because the "me only" is removed from the equation.
Whether you are pink, green, male or female should then be of little concern and all of us then have an input into good management and helping to reduce the human error factor. If I am open minded, I accept, if I am closed minded, I reject.
carholme
If one goes back to the early days of studying the crew environment in an aircraft cockpit and the evolving process to todays CRM. we know that the three main points initiated were,
Interpersonal Communication
Leadership
Decision Making
Time showed that technical skills were not a primary consideration, however cognitive and interpersonal communications were primary in the successful management of an aircrew.
It is not a long jump to extrapolate and deal with the word EGO. probably the most limiting factor in any people management scenario.
The old story goes, "In a group of people, if there is an asshole standing around, he is usually in my shoes".
Barring major cultural differences which may require more understanding and training, if the EGO factor is honestly evaluated by every member of the crew, management becomes much more effective because the "me only" is removed from the equation.
Whether you are pink, green, male or female should then be of little concern and all of us then have an input into good management and helping to reduce the human error factor. If I am open minded, I accept, if I am closed minded, I reject.
carholme
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You can generalise: men and women do bring different skills to the table. Where generalising falls down is in applying preconceptions, categorising a person as such without learning what they as an individual can do.
Generally, I believe it is true that women are of the same skill as men, but that differences in they way they operate exist - probably largely borne of our genetics.
Those who dismiss outright any notion that sexes differ are really putting themselves up to be shot down - not only does science show differences, but being PC is quite different from being a militant PC-enforcer.
In my current field, I have come across some women who are more pre-disposed to getting the task done - this translates occassionally to neglecting the big picture and missing key changes even if the detail has been completed correctly and as asked. I find that men are more pre-disposed to letting their mind wander on their task, allowing the big picture transformational items to be picked up, but missing some details.
Knowing how people operate is key to efficency in performing the task - DvB's suggestion that there might be a difference is a valid question.
As to why he asked the question - he may well indeed recognised that he believes women should be in the kitchen - many women do as well - this is largely irrelevant so long as you understand your own prejudices and work around them.
I challenge anyone to say that they have no prejudices whatsoever - I know you are lying if you say you do not!
Generally, I believe it is true that women are of the same skill as men, but that differences in they way they operate exist - probably largely borne of our genetics.
Those who dismiss outright any notion that sexes differ are really putting themselves up to be shot down - not only does science show differences, but being PC is quite different from being a militant PC-enforcer.
In my current field, I have come across some women who are more pre-disposed to getting the task done - this translates occassionally to neglecting the big picture and missing key changes even if the detail has been completed correctly and as asked. I find that men are more pre-disposed to letting their mind wander on their task, allowing the big picture transformational items to be picked up, but missing some details.
Knowing how people operate is key to efficency in performing the task - DvB's suggestion that there might be a difference is a valid question.
As to why he asked the question - he may well indeed recognised that he believes women should be in the kitchen - many women do as well - this is largely irrelevant so long as you understand your own prejudices and work around them.
I challenge anyone to say that they have no prejudices whatsoever - I know you are lying if you say you do not!
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I haven't figured out the answer yet to the question as following.
Why are men generally better in sports even if the sport doesn't depend on the physical strength of the player?
I can understand why men and women don't compete against each other in football, hockey, running etc. Why is it that females generally can't compete with men in sports like golf and table tennis which do not depend on the physical strength of the player?
Why are men generally better in sports even if the sport doesn't depend on the physical strength of the player?
I can understand why men and women don't compete against each other in football, hockey, running etc. Why is it that females generally can't compete with men in sports like golf and table tennis which do not depend on the physical strength of the player?
Hovering AND talking
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Not quite sure why you say men are better than women at sport? OK, the physical games to one side, I would suspect that the reason men and women don't compete together in golf is one of tradition; after all, there are still golf clubs which won't even accept female members!
As for table tennis? Don't know. At a local league level, it can be mixed as I remember my father's chagrin when he was thoroughly thrashed by a 16-year-old girl!
Equestrian sports are totally mixed sex and it's probably evens whether a man or a women is champion dressage, show-jumper etc.
Sport is very traditionally based and culturally based. How about .... why aren't there many (if any) black champion swimmers yet they excel at track events?
Cheers
Whirls
As for table tennis? Don't know. At a local league level, it can be mixed as I remember my father's chagrin when he was thoroughly thrashed by a 16-year-old girl!
Equestrian sports are totally mixed sex and it's probably evens whether a man or a women is champion dressage, show-jumper etc.
Sport is very traditionally based and culturally based. How about .... why aren't there many (if any) black champion swimmers yet they excel at track events?
Cheers
Whirls
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I'm talking about elite level, the best of the best.
That is not true at elite level. Take the 10 best men and women playing golf at elite level on a specific 18 hole course. The best woman will probably need to hit the ball more times than the least best man.
Different races are better suited at different tasks. Why do you think that dogs of the race poodle normally don't compete with greyhounds in races?
I would suspect that the reason men and women don't compete together in golf is one of tradition
How about .... why aren't there many (if any) black champion swimmers yet they excel at track events?
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Quite. I think you've answered your own question! Surely, it's one of physically differences!
Or perhaps you're after the answer, "that women are not as competitive as men"!
Cheers
Whirls
Or perhaps you're after the answer, "that women are not as competitive as men"!
Cheers
Whirls
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Ladies/Gentlemen;
What do sports have to do with the topic of mixed crew? Is this the kind of rationale that is used in your CRM thinking? As the sports question appears to have been raised by men, what do you have to say about figure skating where there are far more women than men? I guess that would not be a fair argument as it would probably lead to unfair and wrongly presumed responses about sexuality.
Here in Canada, the male domain of ice hockey has been virtually smashed with every small town embodying women's programmes. Are these programmes as good as the men's? Probably not if you are a male domain thinker but in fact they are every bit as good as the men's because it is a thinking game. Historically the best players have been the thinkers whether they are male or female.
If the sports analogy is in any way being used to justify male dominance in the cockpit, I feel sorry for how far we have really come in this business.
Ther CP in our company is a woman and the quality she brings to the operation is unique. Women have exceptional skills as do men but I can tell you that this lady has brought a new light to our operation. She thinks with her head, not her gender. I don't think she is good at any sports but she is not the CP because of that.
carholme
What do sports have to do with the topic of mixed crew? Is this the kind of rationale that is used in your CRM thinking? As the sports question appears to have been raised by men, what do you have to say about figure skating where there are far more women than men? I guess that would not be a fair argument as it would probably lead to unfair and wrongly presumed responses about sexuality.
Here in Canada, the male domain of ice hockey has been virtually smashed with every small town embodying women's programmes. Are these programmes as good as the men's? Probably not if you are a male domain thinker but in fact they are every bit as good as the men's because it is a thinking game. Historically the best players have been the thinkers whether they are male or female.
If the sports analogy is in any way being used to justify male dominance in the cockpit, I feel sorry for how far we have really come in this business.
Ther CP in our company is a woman and the quality she brings to the operation is unique. Women have exceptional skills as do men but I can tell you that this lady has brought a new light to our operation. She thinks with her head, not her gender. I don't think she is good at any sports but she is not the CP because of that.
carholme
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carholme & Co, no one has claimed that there are no good female pilots. I'm sure that there are lots of good female pilots out there. Having said that,
what is wrong with RvB and his concern that he has problem more often with female pilots than male?
Possible reasons I can think of are,
* As already stated, men and women focus on different things. Hence the male captain might not appreciate the way the female co-pilot solve things. On the contrary, do female captains find it easier to fly with female co-pilots?
* The "average" professional male pilot is better than the "average" professional female pilot, in the same way as the average professional male golfer is better than the average professional female golfer.
* It's easier for women to get employed as a pilot, hence the employers accept less qualified pilots if they are female.
I haven't flown in a multi-crew environment but I have flown with several instructors. I have found the female instructors to be less good and the one which had the least good flying skills, taking into account her flying experience, and a really bad attitude was a female. I have an open mind and I'm sure that there are lots of female pilots, with about the same amount of hours as I have, that are much better pilots. Having said that, I don't know if my experience that male instructors are generally better than female is a coincidence or not. It's interesting to hear that RvB also has found that gender is a factor to figure out the likelyhood of a pilot being "good or bad".
what is wrong with RvB and his concern that he has problem more often with female pilots than male?
Possible reasons I can think of are,
* As already stated, men and women focus on different things. Hence the male captain might not appreciate the way the female co-pilot solve things. On the contrary, do female captains find it easier to fly with female co-pilots?
* The "average" professional male pilot is better than the "average" professional female pilot, in the same way as the average professional male golfer is better than the average professional female golfer.
* It's easier for women to get employed as a pilot, hence the employers accept less qualified pilots if they are female.
I haven't flown in a multi-crew environment but I have flown with several instructors. I have found the female instructors to be less good and the one which had the least good flying skills, taking into account her flying experience, and a really bad attitude was a female. I have an open mind and I'm sure that there are lots of female pilots, with about the same amount of hours as I have, that are much better pilots. Having said that, I don't know if my experience that male instructors are generally better than female is a coincidence or not. It's interesting to hear that RvB also has found that gender is a factor to figure out the likelyhood of a pilot being "good or bad".
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Martin1234;
Sir;
It is not a question of male/female better pilots, male/male better pilots, female/female better pilots. It definitely is not a question of better pilots, period. It is a question of pilots and other crew, regardless of gender, forming the best possible cohesive unit, in spite of ourselves.
As for the rest of your comments, I have no clue what you are talking about.
carholme
Sir;
It is not a question of male/female better pilots, male/male better pilots, female/female better pilots. It definitely is not a question of better pilots, period. It is a question of pilots and other crew, regardless of gender, forming the best possible cohesive unit, in spite of ourselves.
As for the rest of your comments, I have no clue what you are talking about.
carholme
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Martin1234, I think your post tells us a lot about you!!
Nothing, as long as he recognises that the problem might be within himself rather than with the female pilots concerned. Somehow, from the tone of the original post, I didn't get that impression.
As has been stated before, of the dozens and scores of threads started on this subject, every single one has been started by a man. Every one. No, female pilots do not give it a moment's thought. That is one generalisation I feel I can be fairly certain on. I cannot say whether I'd prefer a male or female co-pilot; there are some people with whom I'd rather not work and some with whom I enjoy working. I would have to sit down and think whether there is any correlation to their gender.
Thought about it. No there isn't!!!
No. 
The average female pilot has to be better than the average male pilot to be thought of as average!!!
I'd love to know where you got that snippet of info. I do hope this isn't your own prejudice coming through by making up stuff and then dressing it up as fact.
Some airlines may have positive discrimination policies; I can't comment as I don't work for an airline. I would have to take your word on that as you must have more experience in the recruitment field than me in order to make such a sweeping statement.
However, I can guarantee that in the highly male-oriented profession that is my own career, women do not find it easier to get a job at a high level. At a junior level yes, but then they hit the glass ceiling and cannot go any further.
Now, your last post raises some, to me, interesting points and questions:-
If you are talking about male and female instructors, then you are, ipso facto, a student. Are you really in the best position to judge their skill set?
Also, it is not clear whether you've had one female instructor who had both the poor skills and bad attitude or whether you've had several female instructors who displayed one of each of the negative characteristics you've mentioned. No matter. I am afraid that you need to look to yourself as well if you find that you can't relate to someone, or feel more comfortable with certain types of people.
However, if all these female instructors were so bad, you appear to believe it's because they're female not because a) they were badly taught themselves, b) just haven't got the hours yet etc.
Again, if those negative characteristics were found in your male instructors, would you assume it's because they are male or would you assume it's down to another reason.
You've got yourself in a loop now Martin; you are prejudiced. You may have had one or two bad experiences but you will assume, when you meet a new female instructor, that she is going to be as bad as the rest and therefore, any little fault she has will escalate in your mind.
If you cannot see that happening in your head, I'm sorry for you. The biggest thing you can do, is recognise it.
Cheers
Whirls
Originally Posted by Martin1234
what is wrong with RvB and his concern that he has problem more often with female pilots than male?
Originally Posted by Martin1234
On the contrary, do female captains find it easier to fly with female co-pilots?
Thought about it. No there isn't!!!
Originally Posted by Martin1234
The "average" professional male pilot is better than the "average" professional female pilot, in the same way as the average professional male golfer is better than the average professional female golfer.
The average female pilot has to be better than the average male pilot to be thought of as average!!! I'd love to know where you got that snippet of info. I do hope this isn't your own prejudice coming through by making up stuff and then dressing it up as fact.
Originally Posted by Martin1234
It's easier for women to get employed as a pilot, hence the employers accept less qualified pilots if they are female.
However, I can guarantee that in the highly male-oriented profession that is my own career, women do not find it easier to get a job at a high level. At a junior level yes, but then they hit the glass ceiling and cannot go any further.
Now, your last post raises some, to me, interesting points and questions:-
If you are talking about male and female instructors, then you are, ipso facto, a student. Are you really in the best position to judge their skill set?
Also, it is not clear whether you've had one female instructor who had both the poor skills and bad attitude or whether you've had several female instructors who displayed one of each of the negative characteristics you've mentioned. No matter. I am afraid that you need to look to yourself as well if you find that you can't relate to someone, or feel more comfortable with certain types of people.
However, if all these female instructors were so bad, you appear to believe it's because they're female not because a) they were badly taught themselves, b) just haven't got the hours yet etc.
Again, if those negative characteristics were found in your male instructors, would you assume it's because they are male or would you assume it's down to another reason.
You've got yourself in a loop now Martin; you are prejudiced. You may have had one or two bad experiences but you will assume, when you meet a new female instructor, that she is going to be as bad as the rest and therefore, any little fault she has will escalate in your mind.
If you cannot see that happening in your head, I'm sorry for you. The biggest thing you can do, is recognise it.
Cheers
Whirls
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Martin1234, I think your post tells us a lot about you!!
Nothing, as long as he recognises that the problem might be within himself rather than with the female pilots concerned. Somehow, from the tone of the original post, I didn't get that impression.
No, female pilots do not give it a moment's thought.
I'd love to know where you got that snippet of info. I do hope this isn't your own prejudice coming through by making up stuff and then dressing it up as fact.
The average female pilot has to be better than the average male pilot to be thought of as average!!!
I would have to take your word on that as you must have more experience in the recruitment field than me in order to make such a sweeping statement.
If you are talking about male and female instructors, then you are, ipso facto, a student. Are you really in the best position to judge their skill set?
I am afraid that you need to look to yourself as well if you find that you can't relate to someone, or feel more comfortable with certain types of people.
However, if all these female instructors were so bad, you appear to believe it's because they're female not because a) they were badly taught themselves, b) just haven't got the hours yet etc.
You've got yourself in a loop now Martin; you are prejudiced. You may have had one or two bad experiences but you will assume, when you meet a new female instructor, that she is going to be as bad as the rest and therefore, any little fault she has will escalate in your mind.
If you cannot see that happening in your head, I'm sorry for you. The biggest thing you can do, is recognise it.
If I would have told you about the instructors, without revealing their gender, you would probably have said that I had bad luck and that instructors shouldn't behave like that. What I do is that I just say that I had more bad luck with female instructors as opposed to male, without drawing any conclusions. Now all of a sudden it's me that is the problem!
Living in Sweden I'm sick and tired of the "equal right" debate so I rather not spend more time on this thread. However, I think that it's a pity that the issue, if it at all is an issue, can't be discussed openly.
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that it's a pity that the issue, if it at all is an issue, can't be discussed openly.
Why are these types of threads (and there are loads on Pprune alone) all started by men? Why is it always a man who differentiates the sex of the pilot?
Really, I don't have issue with the gender of anyone in any job; only with people who do seem to think it matters.
Again, your female instructors who were no good: was it because they were female, or because of other factors? Simply question!!!
Women are different from each other as well as being different from men. Men are different from each other as well as being different from women. What does that mean? Oh yes, we're all individuals.
Cheers
Whirls
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As already stated, men and women focus on different things. Hence the male captain might not appreciate the way the female co-pilot solve things. On the contrary, do female captains find it easier to fly with female co-pilots?
The "average" professional male pilot is better than the "average" professional female pilot, in the same way as the average professional male golfer is better than the average professional female golfer.
It's easier for women to get employed as a pilot, hence the employers accept less qualified pilots if they are female.
The issue with your three comments was the unfounded preconceptions in the second point, and the fuzzy third point, which is not the case in all airlines and countries.
The point is not that any comment portraying women as diffeerent abilities does not have some grounding in reality, but generalising that they are all of lesser ability, when the standard of judgement is irrelevant or misleading.
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Again, your female instructors who were no good: was it because they were female, or because of other factors? Simply question
I'm not saying you didn't have poor female instructors (from what is presumably a statistically insignificant pool), but are you sure you can disentangle all these factors and assess the instructor objectively...
...as a student and not an instructor yourself at the time...
