Which sector do you want?
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Which sector do you want?
Guys and Girls,
It has come to the attnetion of quite a few fairly influential people that certain things are happening with new, low houred, integrated AND modular trained F/O's (probably as a result of the school's attitudes more than individuals).
The biggest bugbear relayed to me was one of F/O's asking a Skipper which sector he would like to fly after having already made a fuel decision and let dispatch know about it. If there are two things GUARANTEED to keep your hands and feet clear at all times, its unconsulted fuel decisions (without good reason) and asking a Skip what he wants to fly. CAPTAINS GIVE SECTORS AWAY - they don't actually have to let us do any take-offs or landings.
Word of advice: if you have a slightly larger than normal navbag and tend to bring your sunglasses for a nightflight, consider leaving both in the crew room before departure.
Please don't take this the wrong way; its a gypsies warning to all of you, thats all.
BS
It has come to the attnetion of quite a few fairly influential people that certain things are happening with new, low houred, integrated AND modular trained F/O's (probably as a result of the school's attitudes more than individuals).
The biggest bugbear relayed to me was one of F/O's asking a Skipper which sector he would like to fly after having already made a fuel decision and let dispatch know about it. If there are two things GUARANTEED to keep your hands and feet clear at all times, its unconsulted fuel decisions (without good reason) and asking a Skip what he wants to fly. CAPTAINS GIVE SECTORS AWAY - they don't actually have to let us do any take-offs or landings.
Word of advice: if you have a slightly larger than normal navbag and tend to bring your sunglasses for a nightflight, consider leaving both in the crew room before departure.
Please don't take this the wrong way; its a gypsies warning to all of you, thats all.
BS
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As none of the intended readers of the Wannabes forums yet have a job, what is the point of your post?
Scroggs
Edit: moved to a forum where the experienced pilots may round the edges off your attitude!
Scroggs
Edit: moved to a forum where the experienced pilots may round the edges off your attitude!
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Originally Posted by BugSpeed
If there are two things GUARANTEED to keep your hands and feet clear at all times, its unconsulted fuel decisions (without good reason) and asking a Skip what he wants to fly
As for making a fuel decision without consulting, maybe the captain should make the effort to consult the F/O. Maybe the f/o thought time was of the essence, you were too busy somewhere else and in the best interests of staying on time, and saving the company money, made a call. They are after all aware of performance and alternate requirements and I am sure when the captain saw the truck, a quick conversation should make him/her feel at ease as to what the f/o ordered. You can always change it! Why didnt the captain discuss fuel requirements at the pre flight brief?
If the captain has a problem, they should tell someone in your company but before that, get down off their high horse and go to a CRM refresher. You only get the respect you deserve when you give others the respect they deserve. An f/o is not the Captain, granted, but these issues sound more like the captains problems than an attitude of a f/o.
How many times have you stopped a Captain cocking up?? A bit of respect where respect is due here wouldnt go a miss I think.
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BS, Public Profile - Types SEP & MEP.
Just exactly how much airline experience have you got then????
For an F/O to turn up to the office early to prepare all of the paperwork and make an "initial" decision of fuel is good preparation in my eyes. Lets face it 10, 15, 30, or 90 tonnes of fuel doesn't exactly go on in 5 minutes. If the F/O at least gets the minimum plog fuel started you can always asked for a top up. This sort of preparation just helps in the turn around process.
As and when you have some Airline Ops experience under your belt I suggest you wind your neck in.
Just exactly how much airline experience have you got then????
For an F/O to turn up to the office early to prepare all of the paperwork and make an "initial" decision of fuel is good preparation in my eyes. Lets face it 10, 15, 30, or 90 tonnes of fuel doesn't exactly go on in 5 minutes. If the F/O at least gets the minimum plog fuel started you can always asked for a top up. This sort of preparation just helps in the turn around process.
As and when you have some Airline Ops experience under your belt I suggest you wind your neck in.
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BUGSPEED
You really don't have a clue do you! Has it ever came across your mind that some aircraft have to be setup in a particular way depending on who is flying it,hence this is the reason most Fo's will ask the question in a polite way may I add "Which or what sectors would you like to do?". If this kind of general question offends you I would probably think about leaving aviation and making it a safer place for us all.
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Hi,
Bugspeed -what are you, the teacher's pet ?Do you take an apple in each day for your captain ?
And who are these 'influential people'you speak of -your mate down the flying school I would suggest
Bugspeed -what are you, the teacher's pet ?Do you take an apple in each day for your captain ?
And who are these 'influential people'you speak of -your mate down the flying school I would suggest
dont judge everyone by your own standards
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Guys and Girls,
This has obviously touched a raw nerve.
The fact of the matter is that Captains are made Captains nowadays on the grounds that they are generally good eggs as well as being competent commanders.
Yes, the F/O's are consulted on fuel decisions etc (as good CRM dictates). Yes, most F/O's I know make a point of turning up at least 15mins before report to gather their thoughts, paperwork and a coffee. However, I think you have all missed the point of my post.
Yes, having been there myself. The fact is certain things are deemed to be manners. Also, it is very unlikely that the Capt will get you into that much trouble that you are the one needing to get THEM out (granted this does happen very occasionally). Incidentally, the whole point of this is that the Capt hasn't actually conducted his pre-flight breif yet, OnSpeedOnProfile!
As for winding my neck in, I don't think I need to justify my comments. personal profile updated.
Like I said guys and girls, this is a gypsies warning.
It is up to those of us who are in the fortunate enough position of having a job to support and advise those less fortunate.
Egos on the modern flight deck are not a good thing.
BS
This has obviously touched a raw nerve.
The fact of the matter is that Captains are made Captains nowadays on the grounds that they are generally good eggs as well as being competent commanders.
Yes, the F/O's are consulted on fuel decisions etc (as good CRM dictates). Yes, most F/O's I know make a point of turning up at least 15mins before report to gather their thoughts, paperwork and a coffee. However, I think you have all missed the point of my post.
"Did you ever stop to think that maybe the new F/O is working their a£$e off to stay ahead of the game and the aircraft and they are just prompting the Captain to give them a heads up on what sector they are about to fly so they can start mentally preparing"
As for winding my neck in, I don't think I need to justify my comments. personal profile updated.
Like I said guys and girls, this is a gypsies warning.
It is up to those of us who are in the fortunate enough position of having a job to support and advise those less fortunate.
Egos on the modern flight deck are not a good thing.
BS
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Egos get stood on BS, they dont go very far in this day and age. I think its the Captain's ego that you talk about that needs the re-adjustment. Everything in your first post has a plausible explanation and while there are going to be cocky f/os out there, you cant put everyone in the same category.
Personally, I think that manners, while important, take a back seat to commercial efficiency, that is of course what our companies expect from us. While not forgetting professional courtesy, if the Captain was offended then bid deal, it sounds like it's his problem!
Manners are somthing you use when served your coffee or sandwiches, or given the load sheet. I bet you anything you like that the first officer said something like this:
"Which sectors were you planning on flying today?" to which a reasonable response would be " X,Y & Z or, I dont mind you can choose"
then.....
"I have already ordered xxxxx fuel, it will be here soon, is that suitable?"
to which a reasonable response would be... "Thats fine! or no I think we need more or less, how about xxx"
Professional courtesy and respect should go both ways. BS, you sound like you have been given a very one sided view on this. Any captains out there like to comment.......
Personally, I think that manners, while important, take a back seat to commercial efficiency, that is of course what our companies expect from us. While not forgetting professional courtesy, if the Captain was offended then bid deal, it sounds like it's his problem!
Manners are somthing you use when served your coffee or sandwiches, or given the load sheet. I bet you anything you like that the first officer said something like this:
"Which sectors were you planning on flying today?" to which a reasonable response would be " X,Y & Z or, I dont mind you can choose"
then.....
"I have already ordered xxxxx fuel, it will be here soon, is that suitable?"
to which a reasonable response would be... "Thats fine! or no I think we need more or less, how about xxx"
Professional courtesy and respect should go both ways. BS, you sound like you have been given a very one sided view on this. Any captains out there like to comment.......
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OSOP,
Again you have completely missed the point. Its not the Capt's ego I'm on about; indeed I don't think any of the Skippers I have flown with use an oversized navbag. Its the "Sky God" mentality of the newby F/O's that has caused debate.
If thats the way the fuel conversation runs then fine (that is generally the line attitude) however, you still do not ask a skipper whch sectors he wants to fly!
Incidentally,
If thats your attitude you clearly do not understand professional courtesy.
Its not a case of being given a very one sided view; I have witnessed it first hand in our crew room.
MP, if YOU knew something about commercial aviation you would know that this is a real problem with alot of UK short haul carriers at the moment.
If this is the reaction to a mere observation from somebody trying to give people a bit of advice it is quite worrying.
BS
Again you have completely missed the point. Its not the Capt's ego I'm on about; indeed I don't think any of the Skippers I have flown with use an oversized navbag. Its the "Sky God" mentality of the newby F/O's that has caused debate.
If thats the way the fuel conversation runs then fine (that is generally the line attitude) however, you still do not ask a skipper whch sectors he wants to fly!
Incidentally,
Manners are somthing you use when served your coffee or sandwiches, or given the load sheet.
Professional courtesy and respect should go both ways. BS, you sound like you have been given a very one sided view on this
MP, if YOU knew something about commercial aviation you would know that this is a real problem with alot of UK short haul carriers at the moment.
If this is the reaction to a mere observation from somebody trying to give people a bit of advice it is quite worrying.
BS
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Tw@t in the cockpit
There is definatley an attitude problem with some new FO's who come from particular training establishments !! I believe some of these schools have part of their training programme dedicated to First Officer skills/teaching. Unfortunately this seems to bread a rather arrogant and pushy natured, wet behind the ears pilot. Some guys who get their first job straight onto a jet think that they are God's gift - well yeah, great well done on working hard and getting that first jet job but that is where the practical learning really starts.
The "I don't need a checklist I have memorised it !! " and fiddling with buttons before asking the skipper his opinion - ie safety related issues like the seat belt sign or just good manners of asking before changing the cockpit heat controls !!!!
This is the combination of qualities that causes the most upset !
The "I don't need a checklist I have memorised it !! " and fiddling with buttons before asking the skipper his opinion - ie safety related issues like the seat belt sign or just good manners of asking before changing the cockpit heat controls !!!!
This is the combination of qualities that causes the most upset !
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Point taken BS,
Maybe I was a bit blunt. I can see where you are coming from having known the type of individuals you allude to, I understand your intent.
As for the fuel though, surely its company SOP that the Captain CONFIRMS the fuel before it is uploaded or delegates that to the F/O. If it isnt, why isnt it? if it is, then thats a breach of SOPs!
For what its worth, any F/O with a jumped up attitude needs to be brought back down to earth with a BIG bump. The examples you use though could be interperated both ways.
Prof Fogg, Your second paragraph alludes not only to safety but also to professional and personal courtesy and if the f/o did what you alluded to, and ordered fuel and asked the captain what sectors he wanted then that f/o very definately needs an attitude re-alignment!
Is the preflight brief (where fuel and sectors could be reasonably assumed to be brought up) a discussion or a lecture? If it is a lecture, then somthing is seriously wrong (and yes, I know the captain has the overall say! How he/she gets to that final decision is very important in todays Multi Crew environment!)
Maybe I was a bit blunt. I can see where you are coming from having known the type of individuals you allude to, I understand your intent.
As for the fuel though, surely its company SOP that the Captain CONFIRMS the fuel before it is uploaded or delegates that to the F/O. If it isnt, why isnt it? if it is, then thats a breach of SOPs!
For what its worth, any F/O with a jumped up attitude needs to be brought back down to earth with a BIG bump. The examples you use though could be interperated both ways.
Prof Fogg, Your second paragraph alludes not only to safety but also to professional and personal courtesy and if the f/o did what you alluded to, and ordered fuel and asked the captain what sectors he wanted then that f/o very definately needs an attitude re-alignment!
Is the preflight brief (where fuel and sectors could be reasonably assumed to be brought up) a discussion or a lecture? If it is a lecture, then somthing is seriously wrong (and yes, I know the captain has the overall say! How he/she gets to that final decision is very important in todays Multi Crew environment!)
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Originally Posted by BugSpeed
The biggest bugbear relayed to me was one of F/O's asking a Skipper which sector he would like to fly after having already made a fuel decision and let dispatch know about it. If there are two things GUARANTEED to keep your hands and feet clear at all times, its unconsulted fuel decisions (without good reason) and asking a Skip what he wants to fly. CAPTAINS GIVE SECTORS AWAY - they don't actually have to let us do any take-offs or landings.
BS
BS
Fuel uplifts are a team decision, where the Captain has eventual overall authority and may have some experience-based knowledge to offer. A good Captain should ask the FO how much he thinks they should take, this promotes good CRM and encourages FOs to build their decision making character. There may be days where a Captain will decide the fuel uplift due to an unusual weather, operational, cost or delayed environment and ask the FO if he is happy with it. Unconsulted fuel decisions by either Captain or FO are indeed infuriating and undermine both CRM and the command structure. I have been in several situations where an FO has taken it upon himself to order too much or too little fuel some time before official crew report-for-duty time, because he has arrived early. Trying to get an already busy bowser to return to your aircraft can often be met with rebuke from the tanker driver.
Asking a Captain what sectors he would like to do is laughable and just plain rude. Good manners would dictate an approach such as "Do you mind if I do the third sector as I could do with some crosswind practice?" Captains do indeed have the overall say in allocating sectors but also have an obligation in the interests of good CRM to qualify why they have allocated them in the order as such.
I would consider a Captain to be grossly immature if he decided to "punish" an FO for unconsulted fuel / sector rudeness by not issuing any PF sectors at all. There are ways to deal with such irritations which have a positive learning experience outcome for the FO.
For those FOs without command experience who have shouted down BugSpeed over this thread, don't try to run before you can walk, act on the line with good manner and your deserved command will come in good time.
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Good grief,
what a bizarre thread,we obviously have too much time on out hands,
Bit more right rudder --spot on,very funny
Naughty haughtney --You know I only ever bring mangos,
Now bugspeed, I don't know what outfit you fly for (I would suspect the orange lot or O'Leary.com) but I have never encountered this level of arrogance in any of my colleagues you speak of:I can't remember the last time any captain didn't offer me a choice,because they are really not bothered.
As for fuel decisions most operators say the PF (FO or Capt) works out the fuel they would like and then as an FO offer it as a suggestion to the capt,as you get more experience you will find this is mostly a waste of time as you may suggest 500kilos more than plog when the capt was thinking of 300,or he may never go with less than a ton extra.the only time I have made this decision fully is when the capt is stuck on the M25 !
having updated your profile to, presumably, incorporate your new found commercial job I would suggest you do not presume to offer advice yet,
and please don't use the term 'good eggs',you make yourself sound like you are pushing retirement !
what a bizarre thread,we obviously have too much time on out hands,
Bit more right rudder --spot on,very funny
Naughty haughtney --You know I only ever bring mangos,
Now bugspeed, I don't know what outfit you fly for (I would suspect the orange lot or O'Leary.com) but I have never encountered this level of arrogance in any of my colleagues you speak of:I can't remember the last time any captain didn't offer me a choice,because they are really not bothered.
As for fuel decisions most operators say the PF (FO or Capt) works out the fuel they would like and then as an FO offer it as a suggestion to the capt,as you get more experience you will find this is mostly a waste of time as you may suggest 500kilos more than plog when the capt was thinking of 300,or he may never go with less than a ton extra.the only time I have made this decision fully is when the capt is stuck on the M25 !
having updated your profile to, presumably, incorporate your new found commercial job I would suggest you do not presume to offer advice yet,
and please don't use the term 'good eggs',you make yourself sound like you are pushing retirement !
Always loved it when F/o's asked me which sectors I wanted..."Thanks I'll have all of them" ..Guaranteed to shut the SKygod in the RHS......Luckily only ever happened a few times, and never from the same chap twice...
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Naughty haughtney --You know I only ever bring mangos
Bugspeed buddy, I would respectfully suggest you keep your "helpful" suggestions under your hat for a while.
As a further contribution to others on here, where Im working the PF decides what they would like..then discusses it with the PNF, and hey presto! a magic number is arrived at
Personally though....and fade would probably agree (allegations of salad dodging aside)...Im far more interested in who gets first choice of the crew meal, although Ive been led to believe that our cabin crew have been holding out on us..and eating all the chocolate hobb-knobs.
As for the choice of sector......I offer the services of my trusty lucky double headed coin
Está servira para distraerle.
It's just as I thought.
Discipline in cockpits is certainly a fading art. The consequences will be catastrophic.
We must get back to the environment where the First Officer is either a Pilot Officer, or a Flying Officer if he is sufficiently senior, and the Captain is a Flight Lieutenant. 'Rank is rank, old boy', as Michael Caine might have said when he wasn't worrying about the doors.
It is quite ridiculous to imagine that any newly commissioned junior officer can know anything about aviaiton anyway!
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I’m usually at operations before the F/O… it’s just been a normal routine of mine over the years. I find it a relaxing way to prepare for the day’s duty. The paperwork is complete by the time the F/O reports. I give a full brief as to loads, weights, and fuel, including tankering if required. I give a detailed discussion as to why I elected the amount of fuel to be put on the jet and make sure the other guy is OK with my decision. I also stress to the F/O, never to be intimidated into taking minimum amounts of fuel that he would be uncomfortable while taking into consideration of weather, traffic delays, anticipated holding, etc.
Another imoprtant point is to include the F/O in the crew brief with the F/A's. This helps forster the team concept which is aides in the success of the day's operation.
As far who flies the jet, and what sectors… let the F/O fly as many legs has they want, provided no special airports or crappy weather is involved. There are some airports out there where the approach or departure procedure can be a good confidence builder for a new F/O.
But as always, you need to be on the prowl for those newbies that are legends in their own minds, and are probably more impressed with their abilities than you will be. They are pretty easy to deal with to. But that is for another thread.
Another imoprtant point is to include the F/O in the crew brief with the F/A's. This helps forster the team concept which is aides in the success of the day's operation.
As far who flies the jet, and what sectors… let the F/O fly as many legs has they want, provided no special airports or crappy weather is involved. There are some airports out there where the approach or departure procedure can be a good confidence builder for a new F/O.
But as always, you need to be on the prowl for those newbies that are legends in their own minds, and are probably more impressed with their abilities than you will be. They are pretty easy to deal with to. But that is for another thread.
Having heard exactly the same story as Bugspeed related I can only assume we work for the same progressive, forward thinking outfit, where new pilots are also admonished for "fraternising with cabin crew" whilst under training.
The days of the chameleon First Officer are not over yet...
The days of the chameleon First Officer are not over yet...