Which sector do you want?
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I remember my first day on line as a new F/O, I got to the crew room about 50 mins before report, just so I could get settled. I didn't realise that there was ethics involved with "what sectors do you want to do?"
So I made the mistake of asking. The Captain laughed at me and then walked out of the crew room without any reply. At the time I was thinking "what have I done wrong?" All I wanted to establish at the time, was, how I was going to set up the flightdeck once onboard?
Nobody told me that you had to wait for the Captain to ask. I learnt my lesson that day. Ofcourse ,as you settle into the job, it becomes less of an issue and now it doesn't matter. In most cases when I am asked, I reply "I don't mind, what do you want to do?" No drama.
I have always respected the Captains authority but I hope when I am upgraded that I won't take offence if a new F/O asks me the same question on their first day.
Blue skies.
So I made the mistake of asking. The Captain laughed at me and then walked out of the crew room without any reply. At the time I was thinking "what have I done wrong?" All I wanted to establish at the time, was, how I was going to set up the flightdeck once onboard?
Nobody told me that you had to wait for the Captain to ask. I learnt my lesson that day. Ofcourse ,as you settle into the job, it becomes less of an issue and now it doesn't matter. In most cases when I am asked, I reply "I don't mind, what do you want to do?" No drama.
I have always respected the Captains authority but I hope when I am upgraded that I won't take offence if a new F/O asks me the same question on their first day.
Blue skies.
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devokeuk
Devokeuk the only lesson you should learn from this is do not take this Captain's childish behaviour as an example of how to act when you become a Captain. Nobody has to wait for the Captain to ask, it is a valid part of the crew room brief.
However, in many situations it does matter who does what sector. There may be issues with a FO's experience level when it comes to slippery runways, crosswind limits etc. Some airlines issue internal category cards to impose limitations on an individual dependant on his or her skill and experience. Similarly, there may be LVP restrictions imposed on who may be PF.
Continue to raise the question during the brief; so long as it worded as polite and not disrespectful, it is proper and conscientious.
Devokeuk the only lesson you should learn from this is do not take this Captain's childish behaviour as an example of how to act when you become a Captain. Nobody has to wait for the Captain to ask, it is a valid part of the crew room brief.
However, in many situations it does matter who does what sector. There may be issues with a FO's experience level when it comes to slippery runways, crosswind limits etc. Some airlines issue internal category cards to impose limitations on an individual dependant on his or her skill and experience. Similarly, there may be LVP restrictions imposed on who may be PF.
Continue to raise the question during the brief; so long as it worded as polite and not disrespectful, it is proper and conscientious.
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Hi Kiltie,
Yea, you are right regarding F/O's limitations etc. When I said "it doesn't matter" I meant that, it is now not an issue now, because setting up the flightdeck only takes a fraction of the time that it did when I started. Therefore, no worries either way about who is flying the first sector.
Like most companies we have limitations on F/O's with less than 500 hours on type, but after that (well in our company anyway) only the A/C limitations and Cat 2/3 dictate that the Commander has to fly the sector. Oh yea, and also,the Commander has to have belief in his own abilities (should he need to take control and recover a botched approach for example) to allow the F/O to fly a sector in conditions that may be less than favourable.
I like to think that I learn from the various Captains that I fly with. I am a humble kind of guy and look forward to the future.
Blue skies.
Yea, you are right regarding F/O's limitations etc. When I said "it doesn't matter" I meant that, it is now not an issue now, because setting up the flightdeck only takes a fraction of the time that it did when I started. Therefore, no worries either way about who is flying the first sector.
Like most companies we have limitations on F/O's with less than 500 hours on type, but after that (well in our company anyway) only the A/C limitations and Cat 2/3 dictate that the Commander has to fly the sector. Oh yea, and also,the Commander has to have belief in his own abilities (should he need to take control and recover a botched approach for example) to allow the F/O to fly a sector in conditions that may be less than favourable.
I like to think that I learn from the various Captains that I fly with. I am a humble kind of guy and look forward to the future.
Blue skies.
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I might add a few thoughts:
1. I don't think that this is a useless thread. CRM is one of the most important things in aviation nowadays. People who say these "useless discussions" should be cancelled are mostly those who have no clue or - worse - don't care about.
2. There are always FOs who try to take the leadership as there are FOs that are very held back or defensive. Both types are as dangerous. As are "hero" captains and those without leadership. It's always the right balance. And we have to ask ourselves everyday: How have I done today, was my team performance good today, was it tending to the one or the other side?
3. I'm flying in an Asian airline, but I know the "Christian aviation" too, especially the English one. I think not only leading FOs are a problem, but also those who do not show ANY initiative (ok, sometimes because they have been treated by some captains...). I have to admit I hate it much more when a FO doesn't show any signs of thoughts at all than if he has a clear thought about how to proceed. Because the initiative FO knows what to do if all fails. He might be my life safer - and the one of the passengers.
So I rater like an FO who asks my about sectors and fuel than someone who says "I don't mind" all the time. And the Dont-Minders are still a majority today. When I ask "Which sector you want to fly", and I get the answer "I don't mind" I say: "We don't fly to a destination with this name" or "it's the FOs duty to chose from".
Dani
1. I don't think that this is a useless thread. CRM is one of the most important things in aviation nowadays. People who say these "useless discussions" should be cancelled are mostly those who have no clue or - worse - don't care about.
2. There are always FOs who try to take the leadership as there are FOs that are very held back or defensive. Both types are as dangerous. As are "hero" captains and those without leadership. It's always the right balance. And we have to ask ourselves everyday: How have I done today, was my team performance good today, was it tending to the one or the other side?
3. I'm flying in an Asian airline, but I know the "Christian aviation" too, especially the English one. I think not only leading FOs are a problem, but also those who do not show ANY initiative (ok, sometimes because they have been treated by some captains...). I have to admit I hate it much more when a FO doesn't show any signs of thoughts at all than if he has a clear thought about how to proceed. Because the initiative FO knows what to do if all fails. He might be my life safer - and the one of the passengers.
So I rater like an FO who asks my about sectors and fuel than someone who says "I don't mind" all the time. And the Dont-Minders are still a majority today. When I ask "Which sector you want to fly", and I get the answer "I don't mind" I say: "We don't fly to a destination with this name" or "it's the FOs duty to chose from".
Dani
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From a new jet Fos point of view, having line checked only two months ago, this is amazing reading.
I only ask the capt which legs he wants to fly, when he hasnt mentioned it by the time we are setting up for departure. As someone pointed out earlier certain A/c require the FDs to go on in order of is flying( PF first).
As for Capts giving you sectors for being a good boy, thats complete and utter bollocks!! I have several friends all long serving Capts none of which have ever taken this attitude.
In my company they employ two crews per A/c not one pilot and one skivvy, policy is to divde the sectors equally, wx allowing!
Out of common courtesy, I would say, at a critical point "which sectors would you like to fly today?" to which the reply is often along the lines of the following " I'll take first and last if you dont mind" or " Dont mind you choose". I however would give the capt ample chance to bring the subject up first.
If this kind of attitude is on the flight deck still today, then it is very sad that these GOD like Capts learn nothing from CRM courses.
As much as the guy in the left hand seat has earned his command his unable to fly the bloody thing safely on his own, Come on Guys!! people have died because of this attitude
It has no place in the cockpit in todays world.
Ill use manners when theres is time, and when not i'll be top the point. Can you imagine having to say "please can i turn on the anti-ice oh great one" Whilst hes on the radio busy with other things.
Teamwork is the key and a Capt with some of the above attitudes is as dangerous as a know all fresh FO.
I only ask the capt which legs he wants to fly, when he hasnt mentioned it by the time we are setting up for departure. As someone pointed out earlier certain A/c require the FDs to go on in order of is flying( PF first).
As for Capts giving you sectors for being a good boy, thats complete and utter bollocks!! I have several friends all long serving Capts none of which have ever taken this attitude.
In my company they employ two crews per A/c not one pilot and one skivvy, policy is to divde the sectors equally, wx allowing!
Out of common courtesy, I would say, at a critical point "which sectors would you like to fly today?" to which the reply is often along the lines of the following " I'll take first and last if you dont mind" or " Dont mind you choose". I however would give the capt ample chance to bring the subject up first.
If this kind of attitude is on the flight deck still today, then it is very sad that these GOD like Capts learn nothing from CRM courses.
As much as the guy in the left hand seat has earned his command his unable to fly the bloody thing safely on his own, Come on Guys!! people have died because of this attitude
It has no place in the cockpit in todays world.Ill use manners when theres is time, and when not i'll be top the point. Can you imagine having to say "please can i turn on the anti-ice oh great one" Whilst hes on the radio busy with other things.
Teamwork is the key and a Capt with some of the above attitudes is as dangerous as a know all fresh FO.
Yes. I know Scroggs, this is for the wannabees but just an indication of what life is like for them in the future should they join the Company I am employed by, which for interest is Uk based utilising 30 aircraft on short,medium and longhaul operations.
First and foremost sectors are split 50/50 between Captain and First Officer. We have a simple protocol (unwritten) in which 95% of the time the skipper will give his colleague the option of which sector to fly as P1. On a given day there may be reasons, operational or personal where the Captain makes the choice which is his perogative. Personally I don't seek to protect first officers from poor weather, strong crosswinds, difficult approaches etc because they need to be able to gather experience of their own - there are of course limits but whenever possible it remains their choice.
If a pilot, regardless of which seat he occupies, wants to turn up fifteen minutes early - fine, there may be trivia to deal with, time for a bit of banter with cabin crew or indeed just an opportunity to prepare at leisure - however, do remember that you may be compromising crew duty limitations - ie rest - if you turn up ridiculously early on minimum rest between duties. By all means start the paperwork - work out a possible fuel figure based upon best information - the engineers, refuellers may already be seeking a start figure - however final decision will be made between both pilots.
However, back to the crux of the original post - it may seem old fashioned to the youngbloods but asking the Captain 'which sector/s do you want to do' may well induce an adverse reaction ranging from polite amusement to downright contempt. My advice would be to let the Captain make the offer - that way you will not run the risk of 'upset' and probably get the choice in any event - it all makes for an easier life.
It would be interesting to learn where this supposed breed of 'over-confident' newcomers actually comes from - a very rare trait in my Company - but views from elsewhere would be interesting.
First and foremost sectors are split 50/50 between Captain and First Officer. We have a simple protocol (unwritten) in which 95% of the time the skipper will give his colleague the option of which sector to fly as P1. On a given day there may be reasons, operational or personal where the Captain makes the choice which is his perogative. Personally I don't seek to protect first officers from poor weather, strong crosswinds, difficult approaches etc because they need to be able to gather experience of their own - there are of course limits but whenever possible it remains their choice.
If a pilot, regardless of which seat he occupies, wants to turn up fifteen minutes early - fine, there may be trivia to deal with, time for a bit of banter with cabin crew or indeed just an opportunity to prepare at leisure - however, do remember that you may be compromising crew duty limitations - ie rest - if you turn up ridiculously early on minimum rest between duties. By all means start the paperwork - work out a possible fuel figure based upon best information - the engineers, refuellers may already be seeking a start figure - however final decision will be made between both pilots.
However, back to the crux of the original post - it may seem old fashioned to the youngbloods but asking the Captain 'which sector/s do you want to do' may well induce an adverse reaction ranging from polite amusement to downright contempt. My advice would be to let the Captain make the offer - that way you will not run the risk of 'upset' and probably get the choice in any event - it all makes for an easier life.
It would be interesting to learn where this supposed breed of 'over-confident' newcomers actually comes from - a very rare trait in my Company - but views from elsewhere would be interesting.
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Hi,
Haughtney gets chocolate hob nobs......I can see that must have been the deal clincher when he left us !
he works for.......
As for salad dodging - 85kgs LMC for a pilot.....and then some in my case.
dani...you must be great value to work with,'which sector do you want ?' FO-,'don't mind',dani-'we don't fly there'
I bet it takes half an hour duty time for your FOs to stitch their sides back up.
Beamer -are you LHS 757 BHX-?I think I may have had the pleasure of working with you .
to sum this all up it is a question of phrasing more than any of the other theological clap trap written here.
if the capt doesn't voice an opinion on which sector(s) he wants I merely say ,'which way are you driving ?' non confrontational,non presumptious simple as that.
Haughtney gets chocolate hob nobs......I can see that must have been the deal clincher when he left us !
he works for.......
As for salad dodging - 85kgs LMC for a pilot.....and then some in my case.
dani...you must be great value to work with,'which sector do you want ?' FO-,'don't mind',dani-'we don't fly there'
I bet it takes half an hour duty time for your FOs to stitch their sides back up.
Beamer -are you LHS 757 BHX-?I think I may have had the pleasure of working with you .
to sum this all up it is a question of phrasing more than any of the other theological clap trap written here.
if the capt doesn't voice an opinion on which sector(s) he wants I merely say ,'which way are you driving ?' non confrontational,non presumptious simple as that.
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It should all be part of a learning process in my opinion. As a captain I would like to think that if confronted by an overly keen F/O, then I would perhaps have a quiet word nice and early in the process to offer an alternative way of doing something that might be better received by my captain colleagues.
However, I don't think the captain has to have an 'open forum' about every single thing that he decides to do. When it comes to fuel I like to take the line that the PF decides on how much fuel he wants for his sector. Only if the F/Os decision making regarding fuel is at complete odds with mine, or he has obviously not accounted for something will I ask for his 'reasoning' behind his fuel decision (if he hasn't offered it), or point out the thing that I feel warrants more or less fuel than his plan. I am open to suggestion and comment about my fuel decision and seek this by explaining what fuel I have decided on and asking if the F/O is happy with that.
What I find as a slight problem is the way in which some of the less experienced F/Os don't use a logical process for their fuel decisions and try to just guess at a figure that will get the captain to agree! It's all part of the learning process to becoming a captain, so when given the opportunity to decide on fuel for a sector some thought should go into it, justifying the amount you want to take based on all the various factors from engine start to shutdown that might affect your decision.
How about;
Start and taxi out considerations, ramp congestion, time of day, delays at the holding points, etc etc. Is the standard taxi fuel adequate?
T/O climb and SID routeing. Will it be a 'standard' profile? Will you follow the SID, get an extended radar vector? Be held down for a while so you don't get continuous climb? What does your Operation Flight Plan allow for this phase? Ours uses the shortest SID route. Are you going to fly that SID or is the runway in use going to mean an extended routeing? Will you need to avoid any weather?
Climb phase. Again, is it possible that you could not get continuous climb due to airspace or traffic restrictions? Will you need to avoid any weather?
Cruise. Will you get your requested level? What is the likelyhood of being held lower for a while? How much extra might you burn if held lower? Will you get any direct routings that may save you time and fuel? Are the wind predictions on the OFP likely to be accurate? (Be careful with a very strong abeam wind giving a hefty tail component; it doesn't take much of a change in wind direction for a strong abeam wind to all of a sudden have a strong headwind component.) Will you need to avoid any weather?
Descent. What routeing are you likely to get compared to your OFP? Will you fly a full STAR, or get much shorter radar vectors? Or maybe you will get extended radar vectors!? Will any holding be likely, if so how long? How busy is that airport at that time of day? Will the weather affect the approach rate (like LHR). Are you likely not to achieve the ideal idle descent profile and end up flying level low down? Will you need to avoid any weather? Will the Engine Anti-Ice be on for any significant time? And Wing Anti-Ice?
Go-Around. Likely? How much fuel do you want to have in the tanks when you press the TOGA buttons? CMR? Perhaps a little more so that you can have another crack at destination before diverting?
Alternate Fuel. Are you going to divert to the alternate shown on your OFP or do you want to have enough fuel to make alternate number 2 perhaps for wx or operational reasons? Or even alternate 3 or somewhere else!?
Contingency. What amount do you need to meet JAR-OPS requirements? If you adjust the amount of ramp fuel you have, then you should adjudt the burn and possibly may need to adjust the contingency to make sure you are still legal. Can you reduce contingency with use of an ERA and save a little. Do you know the aircraft well, is the planned burn very accurate? Perhaps you know conditions are in your favour and the burn accurate enough for you to consider reducing contingency.
Tankering. Is it economical to tanker? What are the tanker limits regarding icing on the upper wings? Will MLW become an issue? How heavy do you want to be landing at the destination (limiting runway?). Is round-trip fuel an option? If so, have you allowed for any burn on the ground at the other end like APU, or extended taxi?
Final Reserve. Keep it legal!
Extra Fuel. A realistic amount based on all the factors above and the 'likelyhood' of needing extra. Don't put a couple of hundred kilos extra on for each and every factor that 'might' happen, but if it is 'likely' then allow for it. Justify any additional fuel taking into account the areas where you might save a little fuel (like our OFP uses the longest STAR, whereas in reality it is very rare for us to fly a full STAR at places like Manchester). If you give it a little thought and run through your 'plan', justifying any extra or less fuel you can be happy that you are using a structured approach which should be met more favourably. This doesn't account for the captain who always takes an extra tonne becasue he likes to feel comfy, but you just have to live with that and log it away for your future reference when you become a captain. You CAN change the culture over time.
PP
However, I don't think the captain has to have an 'open forum' about every single thing that he decides to do. When it comes to fuel I like to take the line that the PF decides on how much fuel he wants for his sector. Only if the F/Os decision making regarding fuel is at complete odds with mine, or he has obviously not accounted for something will I ask for his 'reasoning' behind his fuel decision (if he hasn't offered it), or point out the thing that I feel warrants more or less fuel than his plan. I am open to suggestion and comment about my fuel decision and seek this by explaining what fuel I have decided on and asking if the F/O is happy with that.
What I find as a slight problem is the way in which some of the less experienced F/Os don't use a logical process for their fuel decisions and try to just guess at a figure that will get the captain to agree! It's all part of the learning process to becoming a captain, so when given the opportunity to decide on fuel for a sector some thought should go into it, justifying the amount you want to take based on all the various factors from engine start to shutdown that might affect your decision.
How about;
Start and taxi out considerations, ramp congestion, time of day, delays at the holding points, etc etc. Is the standard taxi fuel adequate?
T/O climb and SID routeing. Will it be a 'standard' profile? Will you follow the SID, get an extended radar vector? Be held down for a while so you don't get continuous climb? What does your Operation Flight Plan allow for this phase? Ours uses the shortest SID route. Are you going to fly that SID or is the runway in use going to mean an extended routeing? Will you need to avoid any weather?
Climb phase. Again, is it possible that you could not get continuous climb due to airspace or traffic restrictions? Will you need to avoid any weather?
Cruise. Will you get your requested level? What is the likelyhood of being held lower for a while? How much extra might you burn if held lower? Will you get any direct routings that may save you time and fuel? Are the wind predictions on the OFP likely to be accurate? (Be careful with a very strong abeam wind giving a hefty tail component; it doesn't take much of a change in wind direction for a strong abeam wind to all of a sudden have a strong headwind component.) Will you need to avoid any weather?
Descent. What routeing are you likely to get compared to your OFP? Will you fly a full STAR, or get much shorter radar vectors? Or maybe you will get extended radar vectors!? Will any holding be likely, if so how long? How busy is that airport at that time of day? Will the weather affect the approach rate (like LHR). Are you likely not to achieve the ideal idle descent profile and end up flying level low down? Will you need to avoid any weather? Will the Engine Anti-Ice be on for any significant time? And Wing Anti-Ice?
Go-Around. Likely? How much fuel do you want to have in the tanks when you press the TOGA buttons? CMR? Perhaps a little more so that you can have another crack at destination before diverting?
Alternate Fuel. Are you going to divert to the alternate shown on your OFP or do you want to have enough fuel to make alternate number 2 perhaps for wx or operational reasons? Or even alternate 3 or somewhere else!?
Contingency. What amount do you need to meet JAR-OPS requirements? If you adjust the amount of ramp fuel you have, then you should adjudt the burn and possibly may need to adjust the contingency to make sure you are still legal. Can you reduce contingency with use of an ERA and save a little. Do you know the aircraft well, is the planned burn very accurate? Perhaps you know conditions are in your favour and the burn accurate enough for you to consider reducing contingency.
Tankering. Is it economical to tanker? What are the tanker limits regarding icing on the upper wings? Will MLW become an issue? How heavy do you want to be landing at the destination (limiting runway?). Is round-trip fuel an option? If so, have you allowed for any burn on the ground at the other end like APU, or extended taxi?
Final Reserve. Keep it legal!
Extra Fuel. A realistic amount based on all the factors above and the 'likelyhood' of needing extra. Don't put a couple of hundred kilos extra on for each and every factor that 'might' happen, but if it is 'likely' then allow for it. Justify any additional fuel taking into account the areas where you might save a little fuel (like our OFP uses the longest STAR, whereas in reality it is very rare for us to fly a full STAR at places like Manchester). If you give it a little thought and run through your 'plan', justifying any extra or less fuel you can be happy that you are using a structured approach which should be met more favourably. This doesn't account for the captain who always takes an extra tonne becasue he likes to feel comfy, but you just have to live with that and log it away for your future reference when you become a captain. You CAN change the culture over time.
PP
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Gents,
I’m not an airline pilot, but I fail to see what’s wrong with a FO asking the capt which sectors he wants. It’s not like he’s saying “I’d prefer sectors a, c and e, what do u want?” He’s simply asking for the captains preference….what’s so taboo about that? I'd appreciate if someone took the time to explain, lest I make the same mistake.
I’m not an airline pilot, but I fail to see what’s wrong with a FO asking the capt which sectors he wants. It’s not like he’s saying “I’d prefer sectors a, c and e, what do u want?” He’s simply asking for the captains preference….what’s so taboo about that? I'd appreciate if someone took the time to explain, lest I make the same mistake.
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It is difficult for this subject to be expressed in type as opposed to in conversation. I think the point that most people are trying to make is that there is nothing wrong with an F/O enquiring as to which sector is he flying if it hasn't been mentioned, but it is not really good etiquette to ask the captain which sector he would like. Maybe it's old fashioned and I am not trying to sound like an old Atlantic Barron, but I suppose it might be something like walking into your bosses office and seeing a list of jobs that he has to allocate out and then asking him to decide which one he wants to do, or worse than that telling him which one you are doing and not allowing him to manage as he sees fit. Not the best example, but something akin to that.
It's really no big deal and if the captain is pre-occupied with something else and you reach the aircraft not knowing if you are PF or PNF, then it is completely appropriate to ask, I guess it is more how you ask that can either compliment the CRM or cause some conflict. How about 'John, are you flying this sector?' or 'shall I do the walk round?' which would be much better than, 'Well John, best you do the walk round on this sector and I will do it on your sector home!' But even then the last way could be fine with a captain whom you know well and doesn't mind a good bit of banter with you! It's all in the CRM..........
PP
It is difficult for this subject to be expressed in type as opposed to in conversation. I think the point that most people are trying to make is that there is nothing wrong with an F/O enquiring as to which sector is he flying if it hasn't been mentioned, but it is not really good etiquette to ask the captain which sector he would like. Maybe it's old fashioned and I am not trying to sound like an old Atlantic Barron, but I suppose it might be something like walking into your bosses office and seeing a list of jobs that he has to allocate out and then asking him to decide which one he wants to do, or worse than that telling him which one you are doing and not allowing him to manage as he sees fit. Not the best example, but something akin to that.
It's really no big deal and if the captain is pre-occupied with something else and you reach the aircraft not knowing if you are PF or PNF, then it is completely appropriate to ask, I guess it is more how you ask that can either compliment the CRM or cause some conflict. How about 'John, are you flying this sector?' or 'shall I do the walk round?' which would be much better than, 'Well John, best you do the walk round on this sector and I will do it on your sector home!' But even then the last way could be fine with a captain whom you know well and doesn't mind a good bit of banter with you! It's all in the CRM..........
PP
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Interesting post!
It's not what you say it's the way that you say it.
Captains are fully aware that the F/O will "need to know" what sector he/she is flying so that they can engage their mind into the duties/checks/setup they have to perform. The difference is that the Captain has to assess all of the sectors and decide if it is appropriate for the F/O to handle the aircraft bearing in mind their experience level and the weather conditions fog,strong crosswinds etc.The captain will usually inform the F/O what sector they will give away at an appropriate time-usually sufficient.
On the subject of keen newly qualified FO's I would add the following observation:
These days CRM and assertiveness are promoted (quite rightly) throughout flight training and induction into an airline; to question the Captains decision making if it appears they are making a mistake or doing something incorrectly.
If you see something which is wrong , please be absolutely sure of your facts before piping up , especially if your doubts arise at a critical phase of flight.
It's not what you say it's the way that you say it.
Captains are fully aware that the F/O will "need to know" what sector he/she is flying so that they can engage their mind into the duties/checks/setup they have to perform. The difference is that the Captain has to assess all of the sectors and decide if it is appropriate for the F/O to handle the aircraft bearing in mind their experience level and the weather conditions fog,strong crosswinds etc.The captain will usually inform the F/O what sector they will give away at an appropriate time-usually sufficient.
On the subject of keen newly qualified FO's I would add the following observation:
These days CRM and assertiveness are promoted (quite rightly) throughout flight training and induction into an airline; to question the Captains decision making if it appears they are making a mistake or doing something incorrectly.
If you see something which is wrong , please be absolutely sure of your facts before piping up , especially if your doubts arise at a critical phase of flight.
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If you see something which is wrong , please be absolutely sure of your facts before piping up , especially if your doubts arise at a critical phase of flight.
If you have to ask a question about my standard of operation or if you disagree with a course of action, either one of two things has happened:
- a) I am doing something wrong, in which case it is your responsibility to 'pipe up', especially at a critical phase of flight (although more warning is appreciated) - fault: mine
- b) I am doing something right but which you haven't understood, either because it is non-standard and I haven't briefed you (fault: mine) or because I assumed a certain level of knowledge on your part but didn't take time to check (fault: mine).
"if there's any doubt, there's no doubt!" not, "if you're absolutely sure that you're right then there's no doubt".
Piping up in such situations is critical, and must be encouraged.
With the rest of what you say, mc, I agree.
People asking me which sectors I would like does really p*** me off, but I usually bite my tongue, since to comment could adversely affect the chances of that otherwise assertive FO saving our collective bacon at some point. I just usually respond by taking the 'fun' sectors or the two longest ones, hopefully they'll catch on eventually.
Petes comments about fuel decision-making are excellent, I try to live my operational life by such a bible.
"it's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice"
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Hmmm, maybe a smidge of over-reaction in some quarters 
.
Simple answer, turn it round; F/O to Captain: What sectors would you like me to fly? Perceived authority gradient maintained etc. etc. if that is important. Unconsulted fuel decisions probably a bit pushy but not the end of the world.
PS Q: What's the key to CRM? A: Don't be a **** .
. Simple answer, turn it round; F/O to Captain: What sectors would you like me to fly? Perceived authority gradient maintained etc. etc. if that is important. Unconsulted fuel decisions probably a bit pushy but not the end of the world.
PS Q: What's the key to CRM? A: Don't be a ****
.
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I can well recall (from a former airline in a galaxy far away) a known 'grumpy' Captain, with me for 5 days, on his last 'tour' before retirement. As we marched out to the aircraft - with no 'defined' P1, fuel decided with no consultation - I said "I'm more than happy to do 5 days P2 if you would like all the flying". I thought this was a pretty friendly gesture (and subtle hint?) - to which he replied "How dare you presume I was going to give you any sectors". That airline 'SOP' was 'leg and leg'.
OK, he HAD flown with me before
At that point I pointed out to him that I was a little too old for that sort of treatment and we came to an 'understanding'. Hopefully the days of old Captains like him (prone to 'away days' too, as other F/O's called it
) have long since gone. I think GL sums it up nicely
OK, he HAD flown with me before
At that point I pointed out to him that I was a little too old for that sort of treatment and we came to an 'understanding'. Hopefully the days of old Captains like him (prone to 'away days' too, as other F/O's called it
) have long since gone. I think GL sums it up nicely
"it's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice"
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Since it all seems to boil down to etiquette, are there any other such etiquette pints that they don't teach in training? Just to make sure i make a good impression when I start.
Thanks
Thanks
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Originally Posted by BOAC
I can well recall (from a former airline in a galaxy far away) a known 'grumpy' Captain, with me for 5 days, on his last 'tour' before retirement.