Which sector do you want?
Surely the solution is for the F/O to ask the captain which leg will he (the F/O) be in command of the aircraft? I can just imagine the response from the captain and old O.P. Jones would turn in his grave..
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At the risk of going slightly off at a tangent and in an attempt to describe an FO attitude that is guaranteed to get right up a captains nostrils I am reminded of a flight I did a few years ago with an F/O who was nowhere near as good as he thought he was.
His opening conversational gambit was "I was educating a captain the other day when......"
He brown nosed his way onto a jet command course which he then spectacularly failed.
Its all about mutual respect and treating each other as you would wish to be treated yourself.
BUT: Please remember, at the end of the day if the brown smelly stuff hits the rotating aerofoil its the captains ass that will be in a sling.
His opening conversational gambit was "I was educating a captain the other day when......"
He brown nosed his way onto a jet command course which he then spectacularly failed.
Its all about mutual respect and treating each other as you would wish to be treated yourself.
BUT: Please remember, at the end of the day if the brown smelly stuff hits the rotating aerofoil its the captains ass that will be in a sling.
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Chaps and Chapesses,
I get the distinct impression this is now "lets have a go at the F/O's" thread.
Not quite how I intended it when I wrote the first post.
There is lots of very sensible advice on here for those guys who have just picked up the golden first job.
The words that keep cropping up are "mutual respect".
To those Skippers out there dealing with the current FTO's product (and I say this as a relatively junior F/O although have long since dried behind my ears), remember they are teaching them to query (which is good) but not how to do it, or for that matter the practicality that "SOP Guidance" not ridgidity is generally how most situations present themselves on the line.
To those F/O's who have just got their first posting, take from this thread the valuable points and not the venom. Everybody knows how hard it is starting out and most blokes I flew with in "the formative hours" were very understanding - as long as I was showing them mutual respect and a willingness to listen to their experience (some of the ramblings have since helped out immensely!).
Hopefully this has tamped things a little!
BS
I get the distinct impression this is now "lets have a go at the F/O's" thread.
Not quite how I intended it when I wrote the first post.
There is lots of very sensible advice on here for those guys who have just picked up the golden first job.
The words that keep cropping up are "mutual respect".
To those Skippers out there dealing with the current FTO's product (and I say this as a relatively junior F/O although have long since dried behind my ears), remember they are teaching them to query (which is good) but not how to do it, or for that matter the practicality that "SOP Guidance" not ridgidity is generally how most situations present themselves on the line.
To those F/O's who have just got their first posting, take from this thread the valuable points and not the venom. Everybody knows how hard it is starting out and most blokes I flew with in "the formative hours" were very understanding - as long as I was showing them mutual respect and a willingness to listen to their experience (some of the ramblings have since helped out immensely!).
Hopefully this has tamped things a little!
BS
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I think that BugSpeed has an interesting point about FTO´s teaching F/O´s to query if they think something is not right - but not how to do it.
I have flown with inexperienced F/O´s who challenge almost everything you do, such as for instance in the crew room: "You know, you used the wrong procedure to find the A/C parking position on the screen - it is much easier to use my way" or what about this one heard on a short sector after me telling the F/O that I was gonna brief the aproach first and then he could obtain the weather afterwards: "You can´t do that! You have to obtain weather first!".
Or what about: Him: "Have you ever done a cross-bleed start before?" Me: "Yes." Him: "Don´t worry it is not that difficult. I´ve done it myself lot´s of times. Okay, I´m just gonna read the procedure to make sure that you understand what you´re actions will be. Do you know the pressure has to be 30 PSI?" Me: "Yes." Him:"Are you aware that you have to start engine no.1 first?". Me:"Yes." Him:"Don´t forget to alert the groundcrew when increasing power". Me:"Okay, I think we´ve established that you know how to do it - and since I handed you the procedure to read you should assume that I have read it, maybe even that I have done it before?"
These examples are maybe a bit extreme and fortunately not representative for the vast majority of new cadets. However I more and more often come across situations where I politely have to tell the F/O that I apreciate his input but that my suggested solution to the particular problem is what we´re gonna go with.
In order to assure good CRM and SOP adherence I do make an effort to explain most of my decisions. When I was an F/O myself, not that long ago, I apreciated this and if I disagreed with, say, the captain taking a 2 tons extra fuel because the ceiling was down to 1000´ I wouldn´t necessarily raise the issue. Simply because as long as it´s safe and within the boundaries of the SOP´s it is the captain who has the ultimate responsibility and therefore not worth questioning.
I guess my point is that if an F/O thinks something is not right safety wise, speak up, even if he´s not sure he´s right. If it´s a matter of the captain saying a particular callout slightly different - let it rest. If it´s a matter of the F/O having a different opinion on say how to fly the aproach more effectively when the captain is flying - let it rest.
The FTO´s might have forgotten to tell new F/O´s that they should assume that captains know the basics of how to fly the aircraft, and that , yes, most captains tend to get a little annoyed with an F/O constantly challenging every descision they make.
I have flown with inexperienced F/O´s who challenge almost everything you do, such as for instance in the crew room: "You know, you used the wrong procedure to find the A/C parking position on the screen - it is much easier to use my way" or what about this one heard on a short sector after me telling the F/O that I was gonna brief the aproach first and then he could obtain the weather afterwards: "You can´t do that! You have to obtain weather first!".
Or what about: Him: "Have you ever done a cross-bleed start before?" Me: "Yes." Him: "Don´t worry it is not that difficult. I´ve done it myself lot´s of times. Okay, I´m just gonna read the procedure to make sure that you understand what you´re actions will be. Do you know the pressure has to be 30 PSI?" Me: "Yes." Him:"Are you aware that you have to start engine no.1 first?". Me:"Yes." Him:"Don´t forget to alert the groundcrew when increasing power". Me:"Okay, I think we´ve established that you know how to do it - and since I handed you the procedure to read you should assume that I have read it, maybe even that I have done it before?"
These examples are maybe a bit extreme and fortunately not representative for the vast majority of new cadets. However I more and more often come across situations where I politely have to tell the F/O that I apreciate his input but that my suggested solution to the particular problem is what we´re gonna go with.
In order to assure good CRM and SOP adherence I do make an effort to explain most of my decisions. When I was an F/O myself, not that long ago, I apreciated this and if I disagreed with, say, the captain taking a 2 tons extra fuel because the ceiling was down to 1000´ I wouldn´t necessarily raise the issue. Simply because as long as it´s safe and within the boundaries of the SOP´s it is the captain who has the ultimate responsibility and therefore not worth questioning.
I guess my point is that if an F/O thinks something is not right safety wise, speak up, even if he´s not sure he´s right. If it´s a matter of the captain saying a particular callout slightly different - let it rest. If it´s a matter of the F/O having a different opinion on say how to fly the aproach more effectively when the captain is flying - let it rest.
The FTO´s might have forgotten to tell new F/O´s that they should assume that captains know the basics of how to fly the aircraft, and that , yes, most captains tend to get a little annoyed with an F/O constantly challenging every descision they make.
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<< which leg will he (the F/O) be in command of the aircraft?>>
Not wishing to sound pedantic - although many will no doubt say I am being - the F/O is never in command of the the aircraft ( unless the Captain is incapacitated ) he is only ever 'in command under supervision'
Not wishing to sound pedantic - although many will no doubt say I am being - the F/O is never in command of the the aircraft ( unless the Captain is incapacitated ) he is only ever 'in command under supervision'
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I thunk that alot of new inxperienced FO's do not realise just how inexperienced that they are.
I would never want to discourage an FO from challenging my actions if they do not think that they are correct but to have your every actioned questioned is very wearysome, especially when it is an issue of different ways to skin a cat. (Sorry veggies).
Perhpas though that the more "assertive" of new FO's might want to consider how they word the challenge (I am not talking about a blatant safety issue). Perhaps soething along the line of, "For my own learning please can you tell me why you did xzy that way?" would be more appropriate than, "Capt, I think that there is a better way of doing xzy".
I would never want to discourage an FO from challenging my actions if they do not think that they are correct but to have your every actioned questioned is very wearysome, especially when it is an issue of different ways to skin a cat. (Sorry veggies).
Perhpas though that the more "assertive" of new FO's might want to consider how they word the challenge (I am not talking about a blatant safety issue). Perhaps soething along the line of, "For my own learning please can you tell me why you did xzy that way?" would be more appropriate than, "Capt, I think that there is a better way of doing xzy".
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Originally Posted by BeforeStart
Or what about: Him: "Have you ever done a cross-bleed start before?" Me: "Yes." Him: "Don´t worry it is not that difficult. I´ve done it myself lot´s of times. Okay, I´m just gonna read the procedure to make sure that you understand what you´re actions will be. Do you know the pressure has to be 30 PSI?" Me: "Yes." Him:"Are you aware that you have to start engine no.1 first?". Me:"Yes." Him:"Don´t forget to alert the groundcrew when increasing power". Me:"Okay, I think we´ve established that you know how to do it - and since I handed you the procedure to read you should assume that I have read it, maybe even that I have done it before?"
Are you serious, or joking? If you are serious, how long was that person on type?
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If an F/O asks which sector would I like to do, the answer is ALL, as that is the God given truth!!!
If I make the offer of which one they would like, you live with the answer if he has the gutz to say ALL.
Never ask or offer if you wont accept the answer.
CRM has regrettably "empowered" all of us to be assertive, the trick is not to over state our cases.
All members of the crew should be in the fuel/operational planning,
BUT THE LAST TIME I LOOKED THE CAPTAIN WAS THE BOSS.
I have and I hope will allow the "signifigant other" of my crews to assess and proffer a considered process for all parts, and if late accept that basic decisions may have, in good faith, been made to move the process along
If I make the offer of which one they would like, you live with the answer if he has the gutz to say ALL.
Never ask or offer if you wont accept the answer.
CRM has regrettably "empowered" all of us to be assertive, the trick is not to over state our cases.
All members of the crew should be in the fuel/operational planning,
BUT THE LAST TIME I LOOKED THE CAPTAIN WAS THE BOSS.
I have and I hope will allow the "signifigant other" of my crews to assess and proffer a considered process for all parts, and if late accept that basic decisions may have, in good faith, been made to move the process along
Does it matter who flies which sectors? Personally, I'm quite happy to P2 all sectors since our SOPs give P2 the approach so that means you avoid the briefings and get the most enjoyable part of the trip.
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Hmmm, in over thirty years as a heavy jet Captain, I have yet to have a First Officer ask what sectors I plan to fly.
Perhaps just 'lucky'...then again the guys I fly with nowadays are all very experienced in type, so this certainly does not come up.
What I usually do is ask the F/O...you want to fly out, or back?
He then decides the fuel, loads the FMS, reads the checklist, and off we go.
Works for me.
Heck, the Flight Engineer does all the work anyway...!
Oh yeah, if its lousy weather, the First Officer usually flies...they have better reflexes that us old guys.
A very few can even roll the 'ole tri-motor on better than me.
Perhaps just 'lucky'...then again the guys I fly with nowadays are all very experienced in type, so this certainly does not come up.
What I usually do is ask the F/O...you want to fly out, or back?
He then decides the fuel, loads the FMS, reads the checklist, and off we go.
Works for me.
Heck, the Flight Engineer does all the work anyway...!
Oh yeah, if its lousy weather, the First Officer usually flies...they have better reflexes that us old guys.
A very few can even roll the 'ole tri-motor on better than me.
From a Grumpy Old Aviator. How I hate this mamby pamby political correctness that the captain of an airliner is forced to swallow before he can get on with the job of flying his aircraft safely from A to B with the assistance of his first officer. I was perfectly content as a first officer (or second pilot, copilot, second dickie, second in ccommand or whatever title suits you) -for the captain to do his job (with my assistance where he asked for it) - and say to me "your take off". And during the cruise he would do a good job of watching the radar, planning ahead in his mind, and then say to me before top of descent "would you like to do the landing".
There was nothing of this "my leg" nonsense. Reminds me of the lovely story where the captain was appointed the company CRM guru and in so doing became known as the CRM freak. He believed the words "you are wrong" is not in the CRM vocabulary and would rebuke any unfortunate person that perhaps pointed out he had made a mistake. On descent he inadvertently set the incorrect QNH. The first officer noticed this and ever mindful of the freak's attitude to being corrected, he politely said "Excuse me captain - one of us has the wrong QNH, and IT's NOT ME!
Am I alone in this new world of steep,flat,or inverted cockpit gradients, where the real Captain is lost among the androgenic terms PF, PNF, PM, PNM. I understand from good authority that the word "Captain" is soon to be replaced by the more democratic title "Team Leader." ICAO are pushing for it - fair dinkum it is.
I miss the old days where the captain called a spade a spade and ran the show. Just like the captain of a ship. Now I tip-toe to the aircraft wondering if I should do the walk around or should it be the PF or PM that does the job. And if the PM does the job should I as PF and by sheer chance of fortune the crew member allocated as in command for the flight, - should I double check the PM has done a thorough walk around, by having a swift unobtrusive run around myself? And if I get a gut feeling that I really should have a quick double check that there is no chock left in front of the wheels, or a pitot cover left on, will the PM/PF whatever, get into a huff because I stepped into HIS area of responsibility? Isn't the captain (Team Leader) held entirely responsible for the whole operation from start-up to stop?
There has been a decades long myth that captains were always ex military bastards with an autocratic manner that terrified innocent young one stripers. Except one stripers are no more - three stripes thank you very much. In fact this is how the insidious CRM came about. CRM stands for basic good manners and a modicum of common sense in my world. Not a round-table conference.
There was nothing of this "my leg" nonsense. Reminds me of the lovely story where the captain was appointed the company CRM guru and in so doing became known as the CRM freak. He believed the words "you are wrong" is not in the CRM vocabulary and would rebuke any unfortunate person that perhaps pointed out he had made a mistake. On descent he inadvertently set the incorrect QNH. The first officer noticed this and ever mindful of the freak's attitude to being corrected, he politely said "Excuse me captain - one of us has the wrong QNH, and IT's NOT ME!
Am I alone in this new world of steep,flat,or inverted cockpit gradients, where the real Captain is lost among the androgenic terms PF, PNF, PM, PNM. I understand from good authority that the word "Captain" is soon to be replaced by the more democratic title "Team Leader." ICAO are pushing for it - fair dinkum it is.
I miss the old days where the captain called a spade a spade and ran the show. Just like the captain of a ship. Now I tip-toe to the aircraft wondering if I should do the walk around or should it be the PF or PM that does the job. And if the PM does the job should I as PF and by sheer chance of fortune the crew member allocated as in command for the flight, - should I double check the PM has done a thorough walk around, by having a swift unobtrusive run around myself? And if I get a gut feeling that I really should have a quick double check that there is no chock left in front of the wheels, or a pitot cover left on, will the PM/PF whatever, get into a huff because I stepped into HIS area of responsibility? Isn't the captain (Team Leader) held entirely responsible for the whole operation from start-up to stop?
There has been a decades long myth that captains were always ex military bastards with an autocratic manner that terrified innocent young one stripers. Except one stripers are no more - three stripes thank you very much. In fact this is how the insidious CRM came about. CRM stands for basic good manners and a modicum of common sense in my world. Not a round-table conference.
Centaurus
Greetings to the colonies - best piece of sense I've seen written in a long time - thankyou. Some of us still call a spade a bloody shovel so you are not alone. Recently I asked a steward to close the R1 door on a turnaround - he then began to ask the Senior Cabin Crew member if that was ok - I did not swear at him nor raise my voice but lets just say lets just say I put him right in no uncertain terms. Captain - yes, Skipper - yes but team leader - I don't think so........
We are appointed and paid as Captains of the aircraft, we take the money along with the responsibility and when the s**t hits the fan we should stand up and take that responsibility fair and square - or are we going to run off to HR and say - its not my fault, it was the F/O's sector - again I don't think so.
Looking forward to the Ashes - we are crap at the moment but WILL improve !
Greetings to the colonies - best piece of sense I've seen written in a long time - thankyou. Some of us still call a spade a bloody shovel so you are not alone. Recently I asked a steward to close the R1 door on a turnaround - he then began to ask the Senior Cabin Crew member if that was ok - I did not swear at him nor raise my voice but lets just say lets just say I put him right in no uncertain terms. Captain - yes, Skipper - yes but team leader - I don't think so........
We are appointed and paid as Captains of the aircraft, we take the money along with the responsibility and when the s**t hits the fan we should stand up and take that responsibility fair and square - or are we going to run off to HR and say - its not my fault, it was the F/O's sector - again I don't think so.
Looking forward to the Ashes - we are crap at the moment but WILL improve !
Cent,
There are some points in your post which we can all appreciate. I like to have a proper interactive brief about what we are doing before we get to the aircraft, then there is no doubt who is doing what and hopefully we miss less. F/Os should not automatically expect leg about but good Captains should split the tasks, including handling, to help develop the F/Os skill sets whilst doing the difficult parts themselves until their F/O is ready to have a go. Demonstrate, teach (Brief Monitor De-Brief), practice and consolidate. Good CRMIs will also teach the F/Os about how they should be learning as well as contributing.
I still get good feedback from F/Os about the proper sortie brief before we weven start because then everyone knows what is expected of them and what they are meant to be doing, including monitoring the other guy!
MM
There are some points in your post which we can all appreciate. I like to have a proper interactive brief about what we are doing before we get to the aircraft, then there is no doubt who is doing what and hopefully we miss less. F/Os should not automatically expect leg about but good Captains should split the tasks, including handling, to help develop the F/Os skill sets whilst doing the difficult parts themselves until their F/O is ready to have a go. Demonstrate, teach (Brief Monitor De-Brief), practice and consolidate. Good CRMIs will also teach the F/Os about how they should be learning as well as contributing.
I still get good feedback from F/Os about the proper sortie brief before we weven start because then everyone knows what is expected of them and what they are meant to be doing, including monitoring the other guy!
MM
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Team Leader eh? Fits the absurdity of the Long-Word managment Brigade
Centarus et al.
Doe deal. Spot on. You get to know who runs the show when you are in the witness box, believe me. I've been there.
Yes the captain is the captain. He gets the glory and he gets the brickbats but he also needs to be well mannered and kind and remember when he was in the other seats.
As for "leg". Yes that's OK but the decisions are with the captain. He gets to make them and as for sharing tasks like starting, taxying, and other "stuff".............when the time comes to do it for real there is a program called Command Training, where real ICUS is practised, not the defacto claptrap that is practised these days.
No I am not a troglodyte, bully or grump on the flight deck. I know what it is like to be the victim on the "other side" of the flight deck so I go out of my way to not be anything else but helpful.
BUT, I am not a team leader. I am the Captain with the responsibility of managing and creating a team it's as simple as that.
Doe deal. Spot on. You get to know who runs the show when you are in the witness box, believe me. I've been there.
Yes the captain is the captain. He gets the glory and he gets the brickbats but he also needs to be well mannered and kind and remember when he was in the other seats.
As for "leg". Yes that's OK but the decisions are with the captain. He gets to make them and as for sharing tasks like starting, taxying, and other "stuff".............when the time comes to do it for real there is a program called Command Training, where real ICUS is practised, not the defacto claptrap that is practised these days.
No I am not a troglodyte, bully or grump on the flight deck. I know what it is like to be the victim on the "other side" of the flight deck so I go out of my way to not be anything else but helpful.
BUT, I am not a team leader. I am the Captain with the responsibility of managing and creating a team it's as simple as that.
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Captain "Sir"
Naw, "Captain God" who sittith on the left side of the aircraft will do fine. (Joke)
Please, it needs to get back to reality and in a very harmonious way. Be kind. Don't demand. Learn as much as you can for when the real time for command comes along.
I know there are some captains who use the uniform and the aircraft as their status in life and that can be intimidating and some times humiliating.
Hopefully they are a disappearing breed but remember they can serve as a good example as to what NOT to be.
Meanwhile, respect the captain who is competent and a high calibre human being and let the jerks go by the wayside.
Happy thoughts to you, my valued First Officer.
Please, it needs to get back to reality and in a very harmonious way. Be kind. Don't demand. Learn as much as you can for when the real time for command comes along.
I know there are some captains who use the uniform and the aircraft as their status in life and that can be intimidating and some times humiliating.
Hopefully they are a disappearing breed but remember they can serve as a good example as to what NOT to be.
Meanwhile, respect the captain who is competent and a high calibre human being and let the jerks go by the wayside.
Happy thoughts to you, my valued First Officer.
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Having read all of the above I have come to the conclusion that it is a bit like golf.On the first tee the Captain has the honour,by default, as he has the lower handicap.However he may invite his partner to go first.
For the partner to presume he has the honour and walk right up and play his shot, is just not etiquette, and should be avoided at all cost.
Once down route,in my experience the F/O is ALWAYS on the tee first and roles are reversed!! FORE!!!
For the partner to presume he has the honour and walk right up and play his shot, is just not etiquette, and should be avoided at all cost.
Once down route,in my experience the F/O is ALWAYS on the tee first and roles are reversed!! FORE!!!