CRM or BAD CRM or no CRM?
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CRM or BAD CRM or no CRM?
Hello Folks,
just had one of those night mare flights, were the captain has tried to run a single man show endangering the flight safety significantly, but the worst part of it his explanations like “none of your business, I take the responsibility for everything, You have to do what I say, Just say yes when I ask you and so on….. ”, showing the actual problem his attitude.
Ok, here is the story, we flew together for the first time, never saw each other before. During the cruise he started to bull**** on the company, saying how stupid it is to install the safety door for the cockpit and its all doesn’t make sense, so let’s keep it open. I didn’t agree, but tried to do it my way, just kept it closed whenever possible. Than he just lay back and felt asleep without informing me at all. During the descent we have been cleared to FL 110 he replied back FL 100, which I was tried to confirm. Instead of confirming FL, he started the PA, so I did it my self, since I had the com. and selected corrected FL. His comment was “You shouldn’t have bothered the ATC, I would have done it later on anyway”, we were passing FL 140. So what if the clearance was FL 150? Anyway that’s not the worst part. During the approach, we have been advised by ATC to maintain 180, so config. was Flaps 1 (A330-200) speed 180 selected, upon intercepting the glide I have asked for Flaps 2, his comment “doesn’t make sense (Vfe for flaps 2 196)”, when I have asked second time at 2000 ft, he pretended not to have listened and started to read something from the chart. Finally he started to configure, selected Flaps 2 at 1600 ft gear down and so on. As a result the aircraft wasn’t established at 500 ft VMC (which we were supposed to be according to SOP), so approaching 500 ft I advised PIC we are not established, “That’s ok I take the full responsibility, just land it” Anyway I have increased Vapp to spool up the engines. After landing and taxing he just switched off the engine 2 without having briefed me before.
However I have tried to draw his attention after the flight on what was all wrong, but was just smashed down “You fly under my command, you do what I say, You just have to say yes when I give you a command”.
On the way back a lot of things happened again, which you just can describe as a play station 2 “I am the smartest one and I will hit you every time you do something wrong ”, I didn’t do anything wrong, so he tried to examine me and to put me under stress. The whole CRM degraded to single man show. To cut the story short, cruise was sort of usual the door story and so on, but during the approach briefing, based on previous approach and knowing the tendency to land power idle, I asked him to be established at 500 ft. Now check this out his comment “No no, I take the full responsibility I will do it my way”, which I strongly objected and advised him, that if he isn’t established we will have to perform a go around. His comment again “shut up I do it my way and you can report me or whatsoever”. So I insisted and said that if the aircraft isn’t established and he isn’t going around I will take over the controls and do it. However he did than I stabilized approach and landed ok. I from my side filed a ASR and described the situation above. For me it’s not a matter of who did which mistake, we all make mistakes and as long as we work together as a crew and back each other up, we will correct it, but his pathetic way to perform the CRM (single man show) within the crew and his attitude, that’s a problem, which I think endangers the safety significantly.
I know there are such people everywhere and I sure you guys have done similar experience.
Just would like to hear an independent opinion from you guys, regarding the CRM.
Thanks.
just had one of those night mare flights, were the captain has tried to run a single man show endangering the flight safety significantly, but the worst part of it his explanations like “none of your business, I take the responsibility for everything, You have to do what I say, Just say yes when I ask you and so on….. ”, showing the actual problem his attitude.
Ok, here is the story, we flew together for the first time, never saw each other before. During the cruise he started to bull**** on the company, saying how stupid it is to install the safety door for the cockpit and its all doesn’t make sense, so let’s keep it open. I didn’t agree, but tried to do it my way, just kept it closed whenever possible. Than he just lay back and felt asleep without informing me at all. During the descent we have been cleared to FL 110 he replied back FL 100, which I was tried to confirm. Instead of confirming FL, he started the PA, so I did it my self, since I had the com. and selected corrected FL. His comment was “You shouldn’t have bothered the ATC, I would have done it later on anyway”, we were passing FL 140. So what if the clearance was FL 150? Anyway that’s not the worst part. During the approach, we have been advised by ATC to maintain 180, so config. was Flaps 1 (A330-200) speed 180 selected, upon intercepting the glide I have asked for Flaps 2, his comment “doesn’t make sense (Vfe for flaps 2 196)”, when I have asked second time at 2000 ft, he pretended not to have listened and started to read something from the chart. Finally he started to configure, selected Flaps 2 at 1600 ft gear down and so on. As a result the aircraft wasn’t established at 500 ft VMC (which we were supposed to be according to SOP), so approaching 500 ft I advised PIC we are not established, “That’s ok I take the full responsibility, just land it” Anyway I have increased Vapp to spool up the engines. After landing and taxing he just switched off the engine 2 without having briefed me before.
However I have tried to draw his attention after the flight on what was all wrong, but was just smashed down “You fly under my command, you do what I say, You just have to say yes when I give you a command”.
On the way back a lot of things happened again, which you just can describe as a play station 2 “I am the smartest one and I will hit you every time you do something wrong ”, I didn’t do anything wrong, so he tried to examine me and to put me under stress. The whole CRM degraded to single man show. To cut the story short, cruise was sort of usual the door story and so on, but during the approach briefing, based on previous approach and knowing the tendency to land power idle, I asked him to be established at 500 ft. Now check this out his comment “No no, I take the full responsibility I will do it my way”, which I strongly objected and advised him, that if he isn’t established we will have to perform a go around. His comment again “shut up I do it my way and you can report me or whatsoever”. So I insisted and said that if the aircraft isn’t established and he isn’t going around I will take over the controls and do it. However he did than I stabilized approach and landed ok. I from my side filed a ASR and described the situation above. For me it’s not a matter of who did which mistake, we all make mistakes and as long as we work together as a crew and back each other up, we will correct it, but his pathetic way to perform the CRM (single man show) within the crew and his attitude, that’s a problem, which I think endangers the safety significantly.
I know there are such people everywhere and I sure you guys have done similar experience.
Just would like to hear an independent opinion from you guys, regarding the CRM.
Thanks.
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Good on you. It sounded like a pretty unpleasant situation, though you could have just got off after the first sector and explained to crewing why. That would get a reaction....
Unfortunately the people who need CRM courses the most are usually the ones who pay the least amount of attention to it.
Have you talked to other F/O's about this guy? Is it an isolated incident or is he always such a muppet?
Unfortunately the people who need CRM courses the most are usually the ones who pay the least amount of attention to it.
Have you talked to other F/O's about this guy? Is it an isolated incident or is he always such a muppet?
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<< I from my side filed a ASR and described ....>>
From my perspective, it is generally better to keep quiet during the flight if you are met with hostility (as it appears you. were) and have a word with the fleet manager when back at base.
If he requests a written report, then do so...but to go into print beforehand might have undesirable consequences.
Not necessarily will have, but could have.
It might end up in your file labeling you as a troublemaker.
I've seen it happen to a few guys and the results are not pretty.
From my perspective, it is generally better to keep quiet during the flight if you are met with hostility (as it appears you. were) and have a word with the fleet manager when back at base.
If he requests a written report, then do so...but to go into print beforehand might have undesirable consequences.
Not necessarily will have, but could have.
It might end up in your file labeling you as a troublemaker.
I've seen it happen to a few guys and the results are not pretty.
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Well done for writing your story on Pprune because it gives heart to other readers who have suffered under similar prigs in that it happens to the best of us. Important however to look at the long term in these cases. The unassailable fact of life is that any first officer who complains officially about a captain's behaviour in the cockpit is treated as a "problem" pilot whether you like it or not. The company may be forced to agree with your actions but it will quietly and behind your back add a note to your personal file which may not be complimentary.
It takes a certain amount of moral courage to dob in a problem captain, but management rarely accepts that. Of course in situations where there is a dangerous flight safety event in the process of happening (highly unstable approach - good chance of heavy landing - landing very long on contaminated runway, and so on), then to hell with your career - do something fast but make sure your voice is loud and clear on the CVR just in case.
Apart from, that it is best in the long run to button your lip but make sure you make all the required "support" call-outs. When you get home that night, make a note of what happened and keep it under your pillow, so to speak, in case questions arise later. Every airline pilot has struck the same sort of command idiots in their career - just play it real cool.
It takes a certain amount of moral courage to dob in a problem captain, but management rarely accepts that. Of course in situations where there is a dangerous flight safety event in the process of happening (highly unstable approach - good chance of heavy landing - landing very long on contaminated runway, and so on), then to hell with your career - do something fast but make sure your voice is loud and clear on the CVR just in case.
Apart from, that it is best in the long run to button your lip but make sure you make all the required "support" call-outs. When you get home that night, make a note of what happened and keep it under your pillow, so to speak, in case questions arise later. Every airline pilot has struck the same sort of command idiots in their career - just play it real cool.
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Hi there, folks thanks for your comments.
411A “It might end up in your file labelling you as a troublemaker.” You might be right or not. All depends on his previous reputation. I had a similar case, not that heavy, but similar and did what you have suggested, spoke with the chief pilot. He said he can’t do anything without written report and as A37575 said when it comes to flight safety to hell with the career. I think you just need to think, what your career would be in case of hard landing or runway overrun (unlikely but possible) or something else. Apart from that, I don’t just go and file a report because there was a mistake, from whom ever. There was an intentional violation on the regular basis and that’s what I can’t tolerate. Besides that I have made sure to have spoken to him after the first leg and his reaction just confirmed my assumption. Maybe you would understand it better if I describe you a situation from other point of view. I fly for ME company and I am European and the captain is from Libya. Just to show you the difference, for me it all starts with being late for check in and than constantly growing in to a major violation. For him it’s all about the respect and his pride. So we are in fact aiming two different goals, I target a correct operation resulting in safe flight; he wants to be “respected” for his superior actions. So consequently it’s impossible to reach the same goal and understanding of each other. As I said, I have tried to discuss the things after landing and his reaction just confirmed to me one more time “it doesn’t make sense”. So I leave it with the office. For my understanding it’s not acceptable to perform this way in a modern cockpit, but it all depends on you level of responsibility and experience. Anyway flying with that sort of people the co-pilot degrades to a watch man instead of being a deputy.
Anyway whatever the result could be, I at least did warn the office it could be a serious problem.
Cheers.
411A “It might end up in your file labelling you as a troublemaker.” You might be right or not. All depends on his previous reputation. I had a similar case, not that heavy, but similar and did what you have suggested, spoke with the chief pilot. He said he can’t do anything without written report and as A37575 said when it comes to flight safety to hell with the career. I think you just need to think, what your career would be in case of hard landing or runway overrun (unlikely but possible) or something else. Apart from that, I don’t just go and file a report because there was a mistake, from whom ever. There was an intentional violation on the regular basis and that’s what I can’t tolerate. Besides that I have made sure to have spoken to him after the first leg and his reaction just confirmed my assumption. Maybe you would understand it better if I describe you a situation from other point of view. I fly for ME company and I am European and the captain is from Libya. Just to show you the difference, for me it all starts with being late for check in and than constantly growing in to a major violation. For him it’s all about the respect and his pride. So we are in fact aiming two different goals, I target a correct operation resulting in safe flight; he wants to be “respected” for his superior actions. So consequently it’s impossible to reach the same goal and understanding of each other. As I said, I have tried to discuss the things after landing and his reaction just confirmed to me one more time “it doesn’t make sense”. So I leave it with the office. For my understanding it’s not acceptable to perform this way in a modern cockpit, but it all depends on you level of responsibility and experience. Anyway flying with that sort of people the co-pilot degrades to a watch man instead of being a deputy.
Anyway whatever the result could be, I at least did warn the office it could be a serious problem.
Cheers.
Last edited by popay; 28th Apr 2005 at 15:28.
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hi popay,
Those kind of people like you discribe, they are not even sure of themself, they are not confident with themself, because they probably known they are not "good" pilot....! So They NEED to impose a kind off authority in order to be respect, they have a kind of frustration... How those guy became captain..that´s an other story..
By the way i´m not quiet sure but i think we are flying in the same company popay. I got also some bad experience with some guy, but not that bad.
cheers
Those kind of people like you discribe, they are not even sure of themself, they are not confident with themself, because they probably known they are not "good" pilot....! So They NEED to impose a kind off authority in order to be respect, they have a kind of frustration... How those guy became captain..that´s an other story..
By the way i´m not quiet sure but i think we are flying in the same company popay. I got also some bad experience with some guy, but not that bad.
cheers
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G/S 86, yea I believe we do fly for the same company. However, whatever the reason for such misbehaviour might be, it’s not my business to evaluate on the reason. I do bear co responsibility for the flight safety and believe that no one can’t justify a dangerous decision, which has been met intentionally, with the words “I take the full responsibility”. Just remember an accident happened to Hapag Lloyd A 310 flight from Greece to Germany, where they run out of fuel. Co pilot spoke up, but the captain ignored any common sense and the whole flight ended up in a disaster. By the way the career of the co pilot was finished too.
However, I would like to encourage you guys to speak up if necessary and to make sure, you conduct a safe operation. That’s all it matters.
Cheers.
However, I would like to encourage you guys to speak up if necessary and to make sure, you conduct a safe operation. That’s all it matters.
Cheers.
I'm afraid I'm not going to take the discussion much further forward, but I feel compelled to record that I'm shocked!
I really thought this sort of dinosaur had died out in the eighties. At my age, to discover one is actually rather naive is a little upsetting!.
Popay has written a very credible account of behaviour which CRM was specifically intended to fix, but as someone else has said, those who need it most pay least attention to CRM.
I really thought this sort of dinosaur had died out in the eighties. At my age, to discover one is actually rather naive is a little upsetting!.
Popay has written a very credible account of behaviour which CRM was specifically intended to fix, but as someone else has said, those who need it most pay least attention to CRM.
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popay,
I'm horrified to read that, in the 21st century, you should still have to put up with jackasses like this in the cockpit. Reading your initial post was like one of the standard "bad CRM" exercises given to us during CRM refresher courses, except that it did not end in any fatalities. Your endeavours to pull Captain Jackass into line are commendable, what is of great concern is that there are a great many "meek and mild" F/Os who would not have asserted themselves, and those poor souls stand a high chance of being a partner to the catastrophe which is coming his way - It's only a matter of time before all of the holes in the Swiss cheese line up.
keithl and others make an observation that I share, that those most in need of CRM training are the least likely to recognise it. They see CRM as a total erosion of the authority gradient, which of course it clearly is not. I doubt that only an extreme demonstration of the consequences of negative/poor CRM will lead to any change in his ways, and extreme demonstrations cost human lives.
There is a similarly small percentage of pilots who don't need CRM training, those who naturally operate superbly as a team player or a team manager, these are the people whose traits we modelled CRM after in the first place. Whilst this group are true role models to follow, it was interesting in the early days of CRM training to see that this group did not see the need for CRM either, their thinking was that everyone did as they did. Many is the time I heard them say "do some people really do that?" The vast middle ground of pilots quickly recognised and implemented the good principals of CRM.
I think I can say with due honesty that on 80% of the occasions that my F/O has pointed out the error of my ways, he/she has been right, I am most appreciative of their support and sincerely thank them for "saving my ass". The other 20% of the time the correct solution lies somewhere between their stance and mine, a simple situation to resolve with a little discussion.
Sorry popay, none of this helps you. You have to live and fly with this turkey, I don't. Many people like to jump on 411A (I am not one of them), but to be absolutely practical, I have to agree with him. 411A oftentimes gives us a sharp jolt of real world reality, it would be wonderful to live in an ideal world, but he often draws us back into the "not so ideal" real world. There is a distinct possibility (may I say probability) within many airlines that you would indeed be labeled a troublemaker, whether the title be deserved or not. Like him, I too have seen guys go into print (or interview), and the results are not pretty. A group of F/Os presenting themselves to management could be perceived as a lynching mob, or a revolt. I don't know the nature of your airline's management, but even those sponsoring CRM as an effective tool, may give you the label.
So what to do? I spent my F/O years in an airline with some superb captains, a much larger number of ordinary captains, and unfortunately, a few bad ones. This was in the pre-CRM "the captain is infallible" era. We F/Os knew we had a hard day's work ahead when rostered with these guys. My advice, (1) point out the discrepancies and irregularities, with increasing emphasis if needed. If that has no effect then (2) it is generally better to keep quiet during the flight if you are met with hostility (411A's words) than to further anger "the beast", thus creating an even more dangerous situation. If necessary to resort to option (2), then (3) provide the maximum support possible because he's as sure as hell gonna need it before too long. Someone (you) has to have a good 'handle' on the operational situation. I will NEVER NEVER advocate non-standard procedures in normal circumstances, but, if forced into such an environment, he will need all of the support that you can give to prevent further deterioration of an already rapidly deteriorating situation.
Lots of Luck,
Old Smokey
I'm horrified to read that, in the 21st century, you should still have to put up with jackasses like this in the cockpit. Reading your initial post was like one of the standard "bad CRM" exercises given to us during CRM refresher courses, except that it did not end in any fatalities. Your endeavours to pull Captain Jackass into line are commendable, what is of great concern is that there are a great many "meek and mild" F/Os who would not have asserted themselves, and those poor souls stand a high chance of being a partner to the catastrophe which is coming his way - It's only a matter of time before all of the holes in the Swiss cheese line up.
keithl and others make an observation that I share, that those most in need of CRM training are the least likely to recognise it. They see CRM as a total erosion of the authority gradient, which of course it clearly is not. I doubt that only an extreme demonstration of the consequences of negative/poor CRM will lead to any change in his ways, and extreme demonstrations cost human lives.
There is a similarly small percentage of pilots who don't need CRM training, those who naturally operate superbly as a team player or a team manager, these are the people whose traits we modelled CRM after in the first place. Whilst this group are true role models to follow, it was interesting in the early days of CRM training to see that this group did not see the need for CRM either, their thinking was that everyone did as they did. Many is the time I heard them say "do some people really do that?" The vast middle ground of pilots quickly recognised and implemented the good principals of CRM.
I think I can say with due honesty that on 80% of the occasions that my F/O has pointed out the error of my ways, he/she has been right, I am most appreciative of their support and sincerely thank them for "saving my ass". The other 20% of the time the correct solution lies somewhere between their stance and mine, a simple situation to resolve with a little discussion.
Sorry popay, none of this helps you. You have to live and fly with this turkey, I don't. Many people like to jump on 411A (I am not one of them), but to be absolutely practical, I have to agree with him. 411A oftentimes gives us a sharp jolt of real world reality, it would be wonderful to live in an ideal world, but he often draws us back into the "not so ideal" real world. There is a distinct possibility (may I say probability) within many airlines that you would indeed be labeled a troublemaker, whether the title be deserved or not. Like him, I too have seen guys go into print (or interview), and the results are not pretty. A group of F/Os presenting themselves to management could be perceived as a lynching mob, or a revolt. I don't know the nature of your airline's management, but even those sponsoring CRM as an effective tool, may give you the label.
So what to do? I spent my F/O years in an airline with some superb captains, a much larger number of ordinary captains, and unfortunately, a few bad ones. This was in the pre-CRM "the captain is infallible" era. We F/Os knew we had a hard day's work ahead when rostered with these guys. My advice, (1) point out the discrepancies and irregularities, with increasing emphasis if needed. If that has no effect then (2) it is generally better to keep quiet during the flight if you are met with hostility (411A's words) than to further anger "the beast", thus creating an even more dangerous situation. If necessary to resort to option (2), then (3) provide the maximum support possible because he's as sure as hell gonna need it before too long. Someone (you) has to have a good 'handle' on the operational situation. I will NEVER NEVER advocate non-standard procedures in normal circumstances, but, if forced into such an environment, he will need all of the support that you can give to prevent further deterioration of an already rapidly deteriorating situation.
Lots of Luck,
Old Smokey
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Old Smokey, thanks for your advice. Indeed very useful and mature words.
I agree with you absolutely that a confrontation tactic leads to an escalation and that doesn’t help anybody. Often in such a “spiral” of exchanging of fire the safety deteriorates even more. On the other Hand, usually, if you point something out and the PIC takes it personally and is sort of “pissed” and there is sort of tension, but neither the less returns to the safe track, than its ok.
Of course, as an F/O, I have to be more diplomatically and sort of second voice in positive way. This helps if; it’s a minor personality problem, reflecting a sort of sensitive way to react on a correction from the right side. In this case I agree with this method.
If we are speaking about intentional violations on frequently basis, endangering the flight safety significantly, well than, I just have to think about my self and my family in first place and about the PAX in second. It certainly doesn’t help my wife and son, if I will be prosecuted or even worse handicapped, like in case of Hapag Lloyd F/Os. The PIC was one of the most senior TRI in the airline.
In this case, after followed all the suggested diplomatic procedures without success, I can’t let him perform dangerously.
I do realize that my position might be endangered, dependable on the way the office takes the issue, but I have to live with it. If the airline decides not in my favour, well **** happens, that means I ended up in wrong airline, but so far I don’t have this impression.
Anyway once again thanks for your help.
Cheers.
I agree with you absolutely that a confrontation tactic leads to an escalation and that doesn’t help anybody. Often in such a “spiral” of exchanging of fire the safety deteriorates even more. On the other Hand, usually, if you point something out and the PIC takes it personally and is sort of “pissed” and there is sort of tension, but neither the less returns to the safe track, than its ok.
Of course, as an F/O, I have to be more diplomatically and sort of second voice in positive way. This helps if; it’s a minor personality problem, reflecting a sort of sensitive way to react on a correction from the right side. In this case I agree with this method.
If we are speaking about intentional violations on frequently basis, endangering the flight safety significantly, well than, I just have to think about my self and my family in first place and about the PAX in second. It certainly doesn’t help my wife and son, if I will be prosecuted or even worse handicapped, like in case of Hapag Lloyd F/Os. The PIC was one of the most senior TRI in the airline.
In this case, after followed all the suggested diplomatic procedures without success, I can’t let him perform dangerously.
I do realize that my position might be endangered, dependable on the way the office takes the issue, but I have to live with it. If the airline decides not in my favour, well **** happens, that means I ended up in wrong airline, but so far I don’t have this impression.
Anyway once again thanks for your help.
Cheers.
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Hello Popay,
Well I had a similar case lately and also did report it. We had a talk with the fleet management and I tought the case was closed.
But I received a letter from the CMD several month after the case which says that he did as well a report against me (we didn't flew again together!) and we have to go the fleet chief again. On top of that I just learnt that the chief instructor will be there and the problem is that they are close friends... Rough time for me I guess.
This CMD is well known in our company and even most of the other CMD know his inexistant CRM and his poor flying qualities. They also wish us good luck when they see us flying with him, cool isn't it???
Does someone have a job for me???
D_71
Well I had a similar case lately and also did report it. We had a talk with the fleet management and I tought the case was closed.
But I received a letter from the CMD several month after the case which says that he did as well a report against me (we didn't flew again together!) and we have to go the fleet chief again. On top of that I just learnt that the chief instructor will be there and the problem is that they are close friends... Rough time for me I guess.
This CMD is well known in our company and even most of the other CMD know his inexistant CRM and his poor flying qualities. They also wish us good luck when they see us flying with him, cool isn't it???
Does someone have a job for me???
D_71
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D_71,
Well sorry to hear that. I can confirm you that sometimes it’s a common practice to mob the “troublemaker” out by any means. Usually they try to fail him in the sim. and as you know everybody can be failed. SO what to do? We had a similar case back home in Germany, where the Flight Ops tried to fail 3 consecutive times and finally failed the Swiss PIC and fired him. Well on the first approach it looks like they succeeded, but the guy went to Zürich before he attended the third sim and performed the OPC check on the LBA approved Sim with LBA approved Checker and succeeded, afterwards he sued the company and won 1,5 million DM. The conclusion of the story is, as long as you are employed in countries, where the law does work, take advantage of it and fight for your right. According to JAA every company needs to have a safety or quality department, which has to assist the fleet office on investigations. Also in OM there should be a procedure written how the investigation has to be performed. So if your ASR hasn’t been processed accordingly and there was no investigation with associated results, which you also have to be informed about, well than go and see a legal advisor. There are lawyers, who work with aviation (flight safety relevant) cases, especially when it comes to a conflict between pilot and the office. However, I can tell you from my own experience that the attitude of the office people changes dramatically and becomes extremely cooperative, when they understand its very serious now. Financial it also shouldn’t be a problem if you have a legal insurance, covering such things, which you usually do have in Europe. In Europe 75% of the pilot body was taking the company to the court on the regular basis and usually the company has lost. They had to hire people back because they failed to send them a notice on time. I don’t appreciate such a method and try to reach a desirable level of understanding by talking to the people, but if doesn’t work, well let the law decide. Here is one of possible aviation lawyers; you could seek legal advice from
http://www.aviationlaw.co.uk/index.html
Well good luck to you too.
Cheers.
Well sorry to hear that. I can confirm you that sometimes it’s a common practice to mob the “troublemaker” out by any means. Usually they try to fail him in the sim. and as you know everybody can be failed. SO what to do? We had a similar case back home in Germany, where the Flight Ops tried to fail 3 consecutive times and finally failed the Swiss PIC and fired him. Well on the first approach it looks like they succeeded, but the guy went to Zürich before he attended the third sim and performed the OPC check on the LBA approved Sim with LBA approved Checker and succeeded, afterwards he sued the company and won 1,5 million DM. The conclusion of the story is, as long as you are employed in countries, where the law does work, take advantage of it and fight for your right. According to JAA every company needs to have a safety or quality department, which has to assist the fleet office on investigations. Also in OM there should be a procedure written how the investigation has to be performed. So if your ASR hasn’t been processed accordingly and there was no investigation with associated results, which you also have to be informed about, well than go and see a legal advisor. There are lawyers, who work with aviation (flight safety relevant) cases, especially when it comes to a conflict between pilot and the office. However, I can tell you from my own experience that the attitude of the office people changes dramatically and becomes extremely cooperative, when they understand its very serious now. Financial it also shouldn’t be a problem if you have a legal insurance, covering such things, which you usually do have in Europe. In Europe 75% of the pilot body was taking the company to the court on the regular basis and usually the company has lost. They had to hire people back because they failed to send them a notice on time. I don’t appreciate such a method and try to reach a desirable level of understanding by talking to the people, but if doesn’t work, well let the law decide. Here is one of possible aviation lawyers; you could seek legal advice from
http://www.aviationlaw.co.uk/index.html
Well good luck to you too.
Cheers.
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Popay,
Its simple...is he unsafe?If he is,then you have a duty to make your feelings known to the CP but make sure you know what you're talking about.If he is not unsafe but operates in a manner which unnerves you(you know some people get nervy when the gear isnt down and locked at 10 miles),ask him!Use the power of speech!Get him to brief you clearly.If you dont like him all that much and are subconsciously looking for any excuse to fault him on deviations from the norm,have the honesty to recognize that in yourself and store it in the database for when you make left seat.
As for direct confrontation or taking control?Not unless in your opinion he's about to buy the farm.He signed for the plane,not you.
Whichever it might be,I wish you the best of luck.
Its simple...is he unsafe?If he is,then you have a duty to make your feelings known to the CP but make sure you know what you're talking about.If he is not unsafe but operates in a manner which unnerves you(you know some people get nervy when the gear isnt down and locked at 10 miles),ask him!Use the power of speech!Get him to brief you clearly.If you dont like him all that much and are subconsciously looking for any excuse to fault him on deviations from the norm,have the honesty to recognize that in yourself and store it in the database for when you make left seat.
As for direct confrontation or taking control?Not unless in your opinion he's about to buy the farm.He signed for the plane,not you.
Whichever it might be,I wish you the best of luck.
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Rananim,
Thanks for your comments. Well I think it’s absolutely inappropriate to speak about either sympathy or antipathy to the person you are working with. We have the duty to perform and should be dedicated to that particular purpose. In other words everybody has to do his part, regardless of any feelings. But to give an impression, I will tell you that we went out in the evening after the first leg and had a nice dinner with the crew. The communication was ok and the atmosphere has relaxed a bit and he seemed to be ok. That was also ok with me. I am sort of person, who doesn’t care the anger all the time with me, and wait to fight back. I think it’s purely waist of time. So close the subject and start the new one from a clean page. I wouldn’t want to get into detail again, instead of this, would like to ask you a rhetoric question, ” would you put your wife and your son in the plane with him and if yes, would you want me to be a F/O on this flight or not? ”.
I also don’t want to judge about anyone, that’s why I have asked for a independent opinion.
Cheers.
Thanks for your comments. Well I think it’s absolutely inappropriate to speak about either sympathy or antipathy to the person you are working with. We have the duty to perform and should be dedicated to that particular purpose. In other words everybody has to do his part, regardless of any feelings. But to give an impression, I will tell you that we went out in the evening after the first leg and had a nice dinner with the crew. The communication was ok and the atmosphere has relaxed a bit and he seemed to be ok. That was also ok with me. I am sort of person, who doesn’t care the anger all the time with me, and wait to fight back. I think it’s purely waist of time. So close the subject and start the new one from a clean page. I wouldn’t want to get into detail again, instead of this, would like to ask you a rhetoric question, ” would you put your wife and your son in the plane with him and if yes, would you want me to be a F/O on this flight or not? ”.
I also don’t want to judge about anyone, that’s why I have asked for a independent opinion.
Cheers.
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At the end of the day, remember,
Don't become the captain you once hated to fly with!
There is as much to learn from a bad captain, as there is from a good one!
Don't become the captain you once hated to fly with!
There is as much to learn from a bad captain, as there is from a good one!
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Willit Run,
I entirely agree with you, and would even go further to say that, however undesirable and unsafe the learning environment may be, in some respects, there is possibly MORE to be learned from a "Bad" captain than a "Good" captain. May I be permitted to re-quote my own words from another post on another forum (I'm allowed to plagiarise my own words aren't I?)
It's not a learning process that I would recommend, but, having been there (against your wishes) and done it, there is a great deal to be learned from it.
At the end of the day, your decision to report or not report the individual must come from your own assessment of whether his actions were actually unsafe (which it seems they were), or outside the parameters of Standard Operating Procedures but still within the limits of safety.
Good Luck,
Old Smokey
I entirely agree with you, and would even go further to say that, however undesirable and unsafe the learning environment may be, in some respects, there is possibly MORE to be learned from a "Bad" captain than a "Good" captain. May I be permitted to re-quote my own words from another post on another forum (I'm allowed to plagiarise my own words aren't I?)
To the very few "Bad Apple" captains (call them Idiots if you want) that I flew with as an F/O, I heartily thank you. I learned from you first hand how a safe operation can go to crud when you break off from disciplined procedures and did your own thing. From you I learned most of all, I learned the consequences of undisciplined behaviour, I learned WHAT NOT to do, the most valuable lesson of all.
At the end of the day, your decision to report or not report the individual must come from your own assessment of whether his actions were actually unsafe (which it seems they were), or outside the parameters of Standard Operating Procedures but still within the limits of safety.
Good Luck,
Old Smokey
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Popay,
I cant say for sure..we have only your version of events to go on.You sound dispassionate and reasonable so lets say your version is 100% as it happened.It would appear that he's borderline aggressive and this is a source of tension because you expect and demand crm.You can meet aggression with aggression but I wouldnt recommend it.You can rat on him but if he's local and you're not well...so you must deal with it but how?If you have a problem with his laissez-faire lets see how late we can configure style,try not to implicate him as the problem but say that its you...you are having trouble keeping up with him and cant monitor the approach safely because he's too slick...People who are in love with themselves will often respond well to this..you havent hurt their ego,you get them to do what you want and what has it cost you?a little false humility...but remember if he is truly dangerous,none of this applies...take control and save the lives of your passengers and crew.
I cant say for sure..we have only your version of events to go on.You sound dispassionate and reasonable so lets say your version is 100% as it happened.It would appear that he's borderline aggressive and this is a source of tension because you expect and demand crm.You can meet aggression with aggression but I wouldnt recommend it.You can rat on him but if he's local and you're not well...so you must deal with it but how?If you have a problem with his laissez-faire lets see how late we can configure style,try not to implicate him as the problem but say that its you...you are having trouble keeping up with him and cant monitor the approach safely because he's too slick...People who are in love with themselves will often respond well to this..you havent hurt their ego,you get them to do what you want and what has it cost you?a little false humility...but remember if he is truly dangerous,none of this applies...take control and save the lives of your passengers and crew.
