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from the engine standpoint
We do have some knowledge about volcanic ash and commercial flights. Most notably Mt Pinatuba. Most of the data is known only to the affected airlines and is maintainence related. This data is valuable in deciding how much commercial pressure they can tolerate vs increased maintainence costs. Examples of these impacts are sand blasting effects on the Fan & compressors, Blockage effects on cooling holes in the turbine and grit in the oil system. None of these maintainence issues have affected the safety of the aircraft (data based) and have been detectable by increased fleet monitoring (costly -yes, but grounding aircraft is worse). The issues above are airline specific in their decision making. The safety issues are single flight risks while you are airborne. Thankfully the data is sparse but it does relate to specfic instances that must be avoided or accomodated by altering the aircrafts performance (engines and systems). The idea behind the shutdown of airspace is to minimize such specific issues (you can never eliminate them so you must have procedures at the ready should you encounter them) Somewhere along the line a decision will be made when it is likely that encountering the severe cases that affect safety of the flight are minimized to something less than the historical data (the Eric Moody type encounters). I still vote for test flights sooner than later. and a data based risk management approach. |
Damage to FAF Hornet Engines
According to the FAF HQ two F/A-18 planes practising Air-to-air yesterday suffered engine damage due to ingested volcanic ash, and requiring engine change:
In Finnish: Tuhkahiukkasista konkreettista vaaraa lentoturvallisuudelle Suomen ilmatilassa Ilmavoimat on tutkinut torstain ja perjantain aikana Lapin Lennoston F-18 Hornet hävittäjiä, jotka lensivät torstaiaamuna harjoituslentoja Pohjois-Suomen ilmatilassa. Vielä tuolloin ilmatila oli yleisessä käytössä. Koneiden tultua laskuun koneet tarkastettiin ja moottoreiden imuaukoissa havaittiin perunajauhomaista vulkaanista tuhkapölyä. Yhden Hornetin toinen moottori on tähystetty fiberoskooppikameralla. Kuvien perusteella havaittiin, että jo lyhytkestoinen lentäminen tuhkapölyssä saattaa aiheuttaa merkittäviä vauriota lentokoneen moottorille. Kuvat osoittavat moottorin sisään kertyneen tuhkan sulaneen polttokammion lämmössä, noin 1000 asteen kuumuudessa. Sulavan tuhkan aiheuttama jäähdytysilmakanavia tukkiva vaikutus johtaa moottorin osien ylikuumenemiseen ja materiaalin heikkenemiseen. Materiaalin heikkeneminen aiheuttaa riskin moottorin pyörivien osien säröytymiseen ja pahimmassa tapauksessa osien irtoamiseen ja moottorin tuhoutumiseen. Tuhka-altistuksen saaneet Hornetit tarkastetaan perusteellisesti. Ainakin osa moottoreista joudutaan irrottamaan ja toimittamaan jatkotutkimuksiin Patrian moottorihuoltoon. Moottorit, joissa havaitaan merkkejä tuhkapölyn vaikutuksesta puretaan vaurioiden laajuuden määrittämiseksi. Samalla selvitetään esimerkiksi onko tuhka tukkinut jäähdytysilmakanavia. *Operatiiviset lennot hoidetaan edelleen normaalisti* Tuhkapilvestä huolimatta Ilmavoimat pitää Suomen ilmatilan sulkemisen ajan valmiudessa Hawk -suihkuharjoitushävittäjää, joka on varustettu näytteenottosäiliöllä. Kone lähtee lennolle, mikäli siviiliviranomaiset näkevät virka-avun tarpeelliseksi. Koneen keräämän tiedon perusteella voidaan päätellä, kuinka paljon tuhkapölyä on ilmassa. Tulokset toimitetaan siviiliviranomaiselle, joka tekee eri lähteistä koottavan tiedon perusteella päätöksen Suomen ilmatilan käytöstä. Näytteenottokone lentää eri korkeuksilla ja kerää säiliön suodattimeen hiukkasnäytteitä. Koneen tultua laskuun näytesäiliöt toimitetaan tutkittavaksi Puolustusvoimien Teknilliseen Tutkimuslaitokseen Lakialaan. Tulos valmistuu noin kahdessa tunnissa, jonka jälkeen se toimitetaan Finavialle. Tarvittaessa lentäjät raportoivat silmin nähtävistä havainnoista reaaliajassa. Näytteenottokonetta operoi Kauhavan Lentosotakoulun henkilöstö. Tuhkapölystä huolimatta ilmavoimat lentää normaalisti operatiiviset lennot, kuten alueellisen koskemattomuuden turvaamiseen liittyvät tehtävät. Puolustusvoimat, Försvarsmakten, the Finnish Defence Forces. 16.04.2010 13:03 Ash particles a significant threat to aviation safety in Finnish Airspace. The Air Force has investigated during thursday and friday the Lappland Wing F-18 Hornet fighters which were excuting training flights during thursday morning in Northern-Finnish airspace. At that time the air space was still in general use. After the planes landed they were inspected, and the engine intakes were found to be covered with "potato-flour" - like volcanic ash dust. One engine of one of the Hornets has been inspected with fiberoscope (boroscope?). Based on the pictures it was established that even a short period flight in volcanic ash may cause significant damage to the engine. The photos indicate that the ingested ash had melted in the heat of the combustion chamber at the temperature of around 1000 degrees C. The effect of melting ash blocking cooling channels in the engine will lead to overheating of engine parts and deterioration of material strength, and in the worst case, disintegration of components and destruction of the engine. The Hornets subjected to volcanic ash will be checked substantially. At least some of the engines must be taken out and subjected to further investigation at Patria engine maintenance facility. Those engines which demonstrate signs of ash ingestion effects will be dismantled to determine the full effect of damages. At the same time the ash effects to the engine cooling passages will be determined. The operative flights will be carried out routinely (ie. identification flights etc.) Despite the ashcloud the Finnish Air Force continues to keep one Hawk jet-trainer with air-sampling equipment in full preparedness. The plane will fly when the appropriate civilian authorities determine that the flight is necessary. Based on the information gathered by the aircraft the amount of ash in the atmosphere can be inferred. The results are forwarded to the civilian officials, who determine the availability to the Finnish air space through different other sources. The sampling plane will fly at varying altudes and collect particle samples in the container. After landing tha samples will be forwarded to the Defence Forces Technical Reseach Center at Lakiala. The results will be available in about two hours, after which they will be made available to Finavia. If necessary, the aircrew will report visual observations in real time. The atmospheric sampling aircraft is operated by the staffa at Kauhala air base. |
Quickest way to the sun
Judging from this, it looks as if the best route today and tomorrow is to start from GLA, PIK or BFS, and then route via N55/W25 to N40/W25.
From there, the Midi and the Med are your oyster. ;) Makes that old French-ATC-Strike routing (via 8 West) look comparitively direct! Quite how you get to the departure airfield is another (expensive?) matter... |
Just posted on monarch website
Please note that due to the current uncertainty around when airspace over the UK and Northern Europe will open, no Monarch scheduled flights departing before 23.59 on Monday 19 April will be avilable to book. |
Eurocontrol briefing
On sky news just, an update by Eurocontrol - and not an optimistic one either, update on 0700 sat airspace clearance will be given at 20.30, said Joe Sultana, Airspace, Network Planning & Navigation (APN). "Prospects are not good" said he.
Given the predicted winds, jetstream, continuing eruptions etc, this affair is FAR from over. Middle / end of next week probably. Never mind, soon be summer and pissing down every day, so enjoy the (hazy) sun. Wonder if Joe Sultana is a PPRuNe'r ???!!! EUROCONTROL - Who's Who Lid |
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So on the basis of one event recorded in detail by NASA, we are grounding the whole of Western Europe's aviation? That's a rather limited data set to destroy the industry with eh?
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Ok........ so who's going to be happy perhaps writing off a couple of $x million engines? What about pitot/static air data problems?
Back to the drawing board I think. A4 |
And exactly how do you stop the ash getting into the wind milling engines? Are you sure they would re-light?
who wants to possibly wreck 10 to 15 million in engines, not to mention the mess if it all goes completely wrong? |
Thanks. To help Right Engine expand his (obviously limited) knowledge, here is more flight safety reference to serious encounters with volcanic ash clouds:
ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 747-236B G-BDXH Jakarta ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 747-406 PH-BFC Anchorage, AK Cheers :cool: |
Don't need to fly to study ash effect on a running/wind milling engine. All can be done in a lab, even with real ash from a volcano. Put the ash into a sandblast machine, start the engine on a stand, put tons of test equipment around, and test it as much as you wish.
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(1) Switzerland (2) Health
Switzerland will close its airspace around midnight (24h00 GMT +2) Friday 16 April 2010 until Saturday 17 April 2010 at 09h00 (GMT +2)
Source: OFAC - Nuage de cendres: l'espace aérien suisse temporairement fermé par mesure de sécurité [in French] BAZL - Aschenwolke: Schweizer Luftraum aus Sicherheitsgrnden vorbergehend geschlossen [in German] Other information: Volcanic Ash and Health - Reuters/World Health Organization (WHO): Eruption may hurt people with breathing problems: WHO | Reuters - WHO 2008 article on air quality and health: WHO | Air quality and health |
Does anyone know if UK overflights are being permitted above FL350?
Ash Map No significant ash risk above FL350? |
NASA DC8 in 2000
Nice one Fouga:
"In the early morning hours of February 28, 2000, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) DC-8 Airborne Sciences research airplane inadvertently flew through a diffuse plume of volcanic ash from the Mt. Hekla volcano. There were no indications to the flight crew, but sensitive onboard instruments detected the 35-hr-old ash plume. Upon landing there was no visible damage to the airplane or engine first-stage fan blades; later borescope inspection of the engines revealed clogged turbine cooling air passages. The engines were removed and overhauled at a cost of $3.2 million. Satellite data analysis of the volcanic ash plume trajectory indicated the ash plume had been transported further north than predicted by atmospheric effects. Analysis of the ash particles collected in cabin air heat exchanger filters showed strong evidence of volcanic ash, most of which may have been ice-coated (and therefore less damaging to the airplane) at the time of the encounter. Engine operating temperatures at the time of the encounter were sufficiently high to cause melting and fusing of ash on and inside high-pressure turbine blade cooling passages. There was no evidence of engine damage in the engine trending results, but some of the turbine blades had been operating partially uncooled and may have had a remaining lifetime of as little as 100 hr. There are currently no fully reliable methods available to flight crews to detect the presence of a diffuse, yet potentially damaging volcanic ash cloud." |
1731 Dermot Blastland, managing director of Thomson and First Choice Holidays, said: "We've decided to coach back all our ski customers over the weekend to free up flights, so that if the airspace becomes free then we've got more aircraft to bring everybody back. And we've also got 14 aircraft sitting overseas waiting to bring our customers back."
1725 Ryanair announces the cancellation of all scheduled flights to and from the UK, Republic of Ireland, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Holland, northern France, northern Germany, Poland and the Baltic states until 1300BST on Monday. Chief executive Michael O'Leary called the impact of the volcanic ash cloud "an unprecedented event in Ryanair's 26-year history", adding: "We cannot take any safety risks with our aircraft, passengers or people in the British Isles, Scandinavia or the northern Europe coastline, as long as current meteorological forecasts suggest that the prevailing winds will continue to spread this volcanic ash across the airspace of these countries". BBC News - Live: Volcanic cloud over Europe |
1722 British Airways says it will be operating "a number of flights" from the US into Scotland overnight. All its flights to and from London airports were cancelled until at least 1000BST on Saturday, the airline added.
BBC News - Live: Volcanic cloud over Europe |
So on the basis of one event recorded in detail by NASA, we are grounding the whole of Western Europe's aviation? That's a rather limited data set to destroy the industry with eh? go fly through it if you want, but don't say you weren't warned if your aircraft doesn't behave the way you expect.:ugh: |
It isn't just the engines
While engines are critical, and expensive, it isn't the only part of the aircraft that the ash damages. If I recall the KL incident correctly ash got into just about every nook and cranny of the aircraft. The basically had to take the airplane apart and put it back together again. It took almost a year and $80 million to repair (I think that included replacing the engines).
The only reason why KL (and their insurers) didn't scrap it was the long waiting period, at that time, for a B747-400. The official report said: The windshields were damaged, as were internal aircraft systems, avionics and electronics. Anyone from KL who can give us more detail (and correct my memory, if appropriate)? |
Chance for Ryanair to catch-up on some engineering work in their PIK facility? :) |
1722 British Airways says it will be operating "a number of flights" from the US into Scotland overnight. All its flights to and from London airports were cancelled until at least 1000BST on Saturday, the airline added. BA0176 JFK PIK Dep 19:35 16 Apr Estimated. ETA at PIK is 07:40 (744) BA0182 JFK GLA Dep 22:40 16 Apr Estimated. ETA at GLA is 10:40 (744) BA0284 SFO GLA Dep 16:55 16 Apr Estimated. ETA at GLA is 11:00 (744) BA0268 LAX PIK Dep 21:20 16 Apr Estimated. ETA at PIK is 15:30 (744) BA0102 YYC ABZ Dep 21:30 16 Apr Estimated. ETA at ABZ is 13:25 (763) (Has there ever been a transatlantic diversion into Aberdeen?) I just checked a few flights - may well be others. There are some BA flights from USA currently showing LHR/LGW as the destination with an ETD but subject to further change. They must be crewed and ready to go so they might divert to Scotland too if conditions don't improve down south and if the Scottish airports can accommodate them. |
Have a look at this: ICAO EUR Doc 019: "Volcanic Ash Contingency Plan"
Nowhere in this document does it say that the entire region where ash clouds MIGHT occur should be closed to traffic. Am I wrong in assuming that if you stay well clear of any noticeable ash fume or cloud by daylight VMC, you risk absolutely nothing?? I think not! So why not at least send mil A/C up there by daytime VMC and let them look for the actual location of visible ash clouds and keep airliners away from those area's? I can understand that night-time and/or IMC conditions are a different story, but what is happening now seems overkill. Why don't we get some advice from Italian ATC and authorities? At least they have plenty of experience with ash-clouds from their volcanoes! Hoping that some official dares to stand up to stop this nonsense. Best regards, Sabenaboy |
Meteociel - Cartes du modèle numérique GFS pour l'Europe
Jet stream forecast gets worse early next week! That image linked is Tuesday evening...:ouch: |
You're pretty much correct Sabenaboy , however I did fly yesterday into AMS around 1730lt , visually from the south circumnavigating our way to the ILS , first time experience for me , but it was very hard to see , very sparse , very little colour difference , not really comfortable , I think a mistake is easily made ( the NASA DC8 )
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***WARNING***
Would all the spotters and breathless enthusiasts please refrain from posting on this thread. There is a forum dedicated for all your wild speculation and 'eye rolling' and 'head shaking' questions called "Spotters Balcony".
If some of you continue to use this thread and the R & N forum to make posts that continue to make the professionals that are actually involved in all this cringe and shake their heads in despair at the amateurish level of intelligence as displayed, you will get yourselves banned. Just a warning to some of the posters who have had their posts already deleted. Do not try and argue the point on this thread. |
Thinking aloud!
Different airframes have different engines, some having a choice of different types Each individual engine type is type tested I recall from books/documentaries that each individual volcano can produce differing ash compositions that possibly cannot be replicated. So if airframe type A with engines type B were to fly through the ash cloud of volcano X, all that would prove is that combination would/would not work So to prove it was safe every airframe type with every engine type would have to fly through the ash cloud to ensure flight safety i.e. you would need to type test every engine type with every volcano! Of course that means multiple flights and a proportional increase in the risk of an unnacceptable event. So again would you as an individual or member of an organisation be willing to accept the responsibility if one of these test flights ended in tragedy. I don't mean litigation but the knowledge that you may have been resposible for loss of life? Sorry but I thought the aviation industry had the highest safety standards! EDIT Though I realise that some of the go fly in the ash school may not be directly involved in the industry |
Eurocontrol
Eurocontrol 1700Z update almost-but-not-quite confirms Scottish opening 1800Z.
Northern Italy bound to close at short notice. |
Apologies Danny2 whilst I don't fly in the Arena of Western Europe I am not a spotter. I thought the light humour would be well received but apparently not.
My degree is in Geology, and I do fly, however like most of the speculations on this thread I am not qualified to make any judgement on the current situation and whether the closure of most of Northern Europe's airspace was the right call or not. I, like 90% of people here, do not have the necessary facts in front of me nor do I have more than a general understanding of the effects of volcanic ash on turbine engines to make a meaningful input. I am assuming this may earn me a ban but if I were moderating I would be perhaps moderating out the opinion disguised as fact rather than a few flippant posts trying to raise a laugh out of all this. |
Sitting at the eastern end of the med trying to get to blighty to get Jr back to school. the local carrier has cancelled all flights to the UK for the foreseeable future. Its interesting seeing this from the perspective of SLF, even though i have to get back to being a real jet pilot next week. Being asked for my opinion about travel by other SLF but cant really give them a decent answer as even if London opens, it doesnt necessarily mean Germany, France, Holland etc will and im not sure what the local operator will do anyway, but thankfully have a direct line to ops. This article from the mail on line has a good pic that shows the extent of the area affected. The diagram is to the bottom of the article;
Volcanic ash cloud: 100,000 Britons stranded in Europe as air traffic chiefs extend lockdown to 7am | Mail Online Enjoy the days off chaps. I feel there might be a few to come yet. :ok: GW |
first.officer
this doesnt really answer your query however, jet aircraft departing south east airports such as biggin/southampton etc is causing confusion to the general public seeing/hearing them, been listening to a local radio station and quite a high number of people phoning in asking why there are jets flying low level. These aircraft are obviously departing VFR but the general public dont understand the concept of different flight regulations.
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Nowhere in this document does it say that the entire region where ash clouds MIGHT occur should be closed to traffic. If the ash cloud is forecast to cover the entire region then they suggest that operators avoid the entire region. It's quite simple. So why not at least send mil A/C up there by daytime VMC and let them look for the actual location of visible ash clouds and keep airliners away from those area's? |
the shetland coastguard carried out a mission this morning for those doubting the presence of ash here is a snippet from the bbc news report:
"The Shetland Coastguard helicopter crew decided to fly through not only ash, but low visibility caused by rain and mist on Friday morning. The casualty was taken to Gilbert Bain Hospital in Lerwick. Pilot John Grant told BBC Scotland there was evidence of ash deposits on the helicopter on their return. " |
sabenaboy
Am I wrong in assuming that if you stay well clear of any noticeable ash fume or cloud by daylight VMC, you risk absolutely nothing?? With concentrations above the NASA DC8 incident, why would you risk flight safety by pressing on? Enjoy the good weather while it lasts! |
Chris Scott (@10:21)
My thoughts precisely with the comparison to a partial Solar Eclipse....quiet too, 15 miles west of LHR :ok: |
Latest info from an Icelandic expert.........
Published in Iceland Review Online lately......
16/04/2010 | 17:00 Geophysicist: Hard to Predict How Eruption Will Develop Professor in Geophysics Páll Einarsson said it is hard to predict how the volcanic eruption in Eyjafjallajökull will develop. Geophysicists usually base their predictions on experience and little in known about previous eruptions in Eyjafjallajökull. The only eruption on which they have some information occurred in 1821. “And it is limited what we can learn from one eruption. […] Volcanoes change during eruptions so the next eruption will occur in a changed volcano,” Einarsson told visir.is. The 1821 eruption lasted for more than one year and resulted in significant ash fall. It stopped once in a while but then resumed. Einarsson said it is likely that the current eruption will carry on for some time—yesterday morning it grew in strength. However, it has also happened that eruptions come to a sudden end. “But this is part of a longer course of events which began last summer. If the eruption stops suddenly in this location it is likely that it will resume in another location.” Einarsson said the eruption in the Eyjafjallajökull volcano moved from the best possible location on the Fimmvörduháls mountain pass, the only place in the area that is ice free, to the worse possible place, where the icecap is thickest and where there is most risk for glacier bursts and ash fall. I suppose that this (local) expert assessment is realistic - unfortunately! So it appears that some unorthodox solutions have to be introduced in order to be able to fly in spite of the high altitude ash clouds. First Officer's suggestions in his post#471 could be a realistic possibility. |
Sorry, I have tried to go through this thread looking for the info, with no luck.
But has anyone sent up a research aircraft, with suitable probes, to see how much ash there really is in the various layers and locations?? The 747 (BA 009) that had ash problems was in thick ash, not the wisps we have had today. I've not seen a glimmer of ash on any cars, and yet all the airports closed. |
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/aviation...1271440382.png
1200Z tomorrow still looking bad for England Wales. |
I see some ask whether or not overflight of the area can be carried out above FL350. However, ask yourselves, especially for twin engined aeroplanes, what would happen when you have an engine failure right over the ash area?
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I see some ask whether or not overflight of the area can be carried out above FL350. However, ask yourselves, especially for twin engined aeroplanes, what would happen when you have an engine failure right over the ash area? |
Note:
While some of you fail to heed our warnings about posting rubbish and peurile nonsense - we mods WILL delete them in a trice. We have better things to do than constantly following every post to see if it has any commonsense in it. So once again take heed. WE decide what makes a contribution to a debate and right now there are precious few posts that do. All that can be said by the authorities has been said and that's it! |
Has anybody here real (fact based) information on the effects of this "low" (not visible) concentrations of ash on piston powered VFR operated aircraft?
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