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Originally Posted by Longhitter
(Post 10239999)
Austrian licences, except for German nationals based in Europe.
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I wonder if the Austrians would allow engineers to convert their UK issued licences too?
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How long until airlines decide to pull staff out of UK in expectation of worst outcome?
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Originally Posted by Skyjob
(Post 10241771)
How long until airlines decide to pull staff out of UK in expectation of worst outcome?
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The one thing that you can trust is that nice Mr Grayling, Mr Raab, Mrs May and their chums will always be OK.
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Transport does not feature on the list, nor does aviation, the motor industry or the chemical industry, all presumably deemed not sufficiently important to feature in the first tranche of notices. In any event, such guidance will have to come sooner rather than later, so keep watching. |
The penny seems to be dropping at last. From the Daily Mail, 6 September 2018:
Britain draws up 27 different pacts to protect flights if there's no Brexit deal as new government papers will accept possibility UK planes WON'T be able to take off and land on the continent Britain is trying to negotiate aviation deals with individual EU countries to ensure planes continue to fly in the event of a ‘no deal’ Brexit. Transport Secretary Chris Grayling will write to his opposite numbers in the 27 member states, seeking to secure agreements. The move, which attempts to circumvent the European Commission, will anger Brussels officials. The European Union is responsible for aviation laws across the continent, but has resisted efforts by the UK to draw up contingency plans if there is no agreement. Mr Grayling will urge European transport ministers to be practical and prepare for the talks collapsing. It comes ahead of the publication next week of another tranche of ‘no deal’ papers, including those covering aviation. The papers will accept there is a theoretical possibility UK planes will not be able to take off and land on the continent after March 29 next year. Flights from Europe would also be blocked from landing in the UK unless a new agreement is made to replace the single market for aviation. Unfortunately, individual EU nations do not have the "competence" to negotiate their own air service agreements so it does look like things could possibly "not be ok on the night". |
Originally Posted by highcirrus
(Post 10235136)
Some very interesting information today from Dr. Richard North:
The UK would thus cease to benefit from access to the skies of EU Member States and, on the basis of non-conformity with the safety provisions, UK registered aircraft would be refused landing rights in the territories of EU Member States, and UK airports could no longer be used by EU-registered aircraft. The impact of a "no deal" Brexit on air operations would thus be extraordinarily severe, so much so that many pundits argue that the UK and EU would quickly come to a deal which will permit resumption of the status quo. In other words, a "no-deal" Brexit would not actually mean a no-deal Brexit, certainly in respect of aviation. With the agreement of a side-deal, we would have a no-deal deal. * Despite the EU trying to take over 'the skies of Europe' it is a signatory to the European Civil Aviation Conference (ECAC) that created EUROCONTROL, There are more member states in EUROCONTROL than in the EU. Almost all of the air traffic management, network management etc operations are done by EUROCONTROL and the EU is 'just a member' of EUROCONTROL. So a lot of this is posturing by the EU. * If the UK were put in the position that 'it would cease to benefit from the skies of Europe' then EU states would also cease to benefit from access to the skies of UK and Shanwick. That would make transatlantic operations to/from Europe by EU operators somewhat difficult without refueling stops Not so of course for non EU operators. A lot of this is grasping for headlines by EUrocrats who are actually taking careful aim at their own feet. |
Not so much bothered about Single Skies. Much more bothered about UK licences and approvals going phut.
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Ian W
Once again, Dr. Richard North sets out the exact position in an Impact Assessment, the whole of which is well worth detailed study: However, the legal framework which defines the overall ATM system is no longer confined to the EU Member States. In December 2005, the EU concluded an agreement on the European Common Aviation Area (ECAA), extending the entire aviation acquis to partners in South-Eastern and Northern Europe. These were: Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Kosovo under UNSCR 1244, Norway and Iceland. In addition to EU institutions, there is the 41-member intergovernmental Eurocontrol, which was founded in 1960 by the Eurocontrol Convention, and ratified in 1963. It was set up with the idea of harmonising ATM throughout Europe but scuppered by the French and British, largely due to concerns over control of military airspace. The body lingered in a sort of half-life existence, running the Upper Area Control Centre (MUAC), located at Maastricht Aachen Airport, which started operations in 1972. This managed traffic above 24,500 ft over Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and north-west Germany, alongside a military control unit, handling the conflicts between military and civilian traffic. In 1997, though, its mandate was renewed and the European Union became a member of Eurocontrol in its own right, able to vote on behalf of its members, rather as it does in the UN or the WTO. This led to a new lease of life for the organisation when, in 2011, the Commission, using its voting power, set it up as the Network Manager for the whole of European airspace. Its job is to take charge of the wider European air traffic system, with the brief to ensure that the whole system functions efficiently. Additionally, it provides policy-setting and regulatory support to the Commission, and plays a part in the research and development of the ATM system. EUrocrats who are actually taking careful aim at their own feet |
However, despite Eurocontrol being more states than just the EU, the EU commission has the voting rights of all EU states, being able to overpower any other vote on that gremium, and even more importantly, the EU single sky is not an Eurocontrol agreement, it is an EU treaty, same as the EU open skies agreement with the USA. And while the EFTA will lose traffic rights into the UK in case of no deal, the UK will lose traffic rights into the whole EFTA, which is quite a bit more market than the other way round, not to mention all traffic rights into the USA and other states where the EU negotiated agreements will be lost as well and will have to be renegotiated. Of course the Montreal Convention still stands, so overflying the UK, including Shanwick, is still possible, just not landing dependent on commercial agreements. Interesting to see the UK once again trying to circumnavigate the EU commissikn, however, any new air traffic agreement can only be negotiated by the EU, not by single states anymore as the UK should know very well, that happened after all on their initiative, as so many other things did in the EU. |
Quite.
What the UK continually forgets is that the EU is a rule-based organisation. With 28 (soon to be 27) countries and their own individual views, no-one trusts anyone to have a 'gentleman's agreement'. So they lock everyone down into a strong set of rules that everyone can understand. The UK seems to think that now Article 50 is in place we can by-pass the rules and chat up each country and sort out individual deals. 2 things wrong with that. 1 it's against the rules we still have to abide with 2 it shows the 27 that the UK can't be trusted to stick to an agreement, and with uncertainty over what the Govt will be even next month, how can agreements proposed now be relied on by Brexit day. Any sensible country would want the UK locked into a firm and legally enforceable treaty before agreeing any reciprocal arrangement now - especially one negotiated by Grayling who, let's face it, isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer |
Precisely. The Mail reports that Grayling's move attempts to circumvent the European Commission.
Needless to say, this isn't going to happen (27 separate aviation deals). The technical details are complex, stemming from the 2002 ECJ judgement on European air transport policy, discussed here , but with the emergence of an EU external aviation policy, the Commission has established its presence in the policy field. What this means is that Member States are no longer free agents when it comes to negotiating aviation agreements with third countries. The Commission has a right to be involved and, in certain areas – such as aviation safety – it has exclusive competence. Effectively, without the willing cooperation of the Commission, there can be no deals. |
Guys we can talk all we want but no one really knows anything. SO I would suggest the smartest move is to change your uk licence and medical asap if you can, if you can't because you're in the uk then we all hope for the best.. |
Christopher Booker in the Sunday Telegraph (£), 9 September 2018:
A measure of our ever more surreal times was the way in which, as Britain totters ever closer to a “no-deal” Brexit, and on the day Lord King, the former governor of the Bank of England, was warning that the Government is unprepared for its “disastrous consequences”, the lead news story was: “Calorie counts to be listed on menus”. Theresa May may be persisting with her Chequers plan, rejected as unworkable by virtually everyone else. But even with “no deal”, we would still need to cobble together a host of what Dominic Raab, the Brexit Secretary, calls “side deals”, simply to keep much of our economy functioning. Here are just three of the problems which, as the European Commission has repeatedly warned we will face if we fall out of the EU to become a "third country", causing a myriad legal authorisations and arrangements to lapse. One structure we shall drop out of is the European Common Aviation Area (ECAA), which provides the legal framework for members of the EU and neighbourhood countries to fly freely in each other's air space, subject to their complete conformity with EU aviation rules. On becoming a "third country" we could not apply to rejoin it, to allow continued air traffic between ourselves and the EU, without lengthy negotiations; and even then only if we have established a framework of "close economic cooperation" with the EU. |
If you have UK issued EASA licence, and are trying to get employment with a european airline, you may find that the job offers are few and far between. Most european registered airlines are playing a wait and see approach to Brexit. However, they are proactively reducing employment of UK licence holders for obvious reasons. They are still interviewing and putting guys in pools, thats their legal obligation. But the amount of job offers going to UK issued Part licences has reduced significantly. |
Originally Posted by highfive
(Post 10245117)
Most european registered airlines are playing a wait and see approach to Brexit. However, they are proactively reducing employment of UK licence holders for obvious reasons. They are still interviewing and putting guys in pools, thats their legal obligation. But the amount of job offers going to UK issued Part licences has reduced significantly. PZ :confused: |
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Wow i wonder whether ‘non British’ licence holders flying for UK airlines might be thinking about leaving? Certainly the Brits have always employed more non Brit pilots, than the likes of AF, KLM, Lufthansa or Iberia ever employed Brits. Just how we are, I guess? Could be some improved job opportunities coming up in the UK? Maybe even improved T&Cs, as the supply/demand ratio changes? |
In a non-UK AOC I know, approximately 10% of the aircrew are UK licence holders (total 500ish). Management is considering guidance regarding SOLI for these pilots, but there is absolutely no suggestion in the current climate that anyone otherwise suitably qualified and currently holding a UK issued Part-FCL Licence would be disadvantaged in any way whatsoever for now. In fact, quite the opposite.
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