Really is this true?

If so what mechanism do EASA use to prevent an EU operator sending a charter flight to the chart areas marked "there be dragons"?

I am in the same position, have a UK EASA issued TRE. I believe I'll be pitching for the Irish EASA License (their application form asks for the details of your TRE certificate if you hold one), but have no feedback whatsoever about transfering a license with TRE. I'll decide on applying early December, I am waiting until the vanishing hopes of UK CAA remaining in EASA environment are gone.

Cheers

Yes thank you I am aware of that. Maybe my post was poorly written, but any feedback with regards to transferring is still appreciated. For example, to transfer a TRE to the Danish authorities requires you to attend a 1 day seminar run by them which only happens 4 times a year, and as I understand it is over subscribed. So that is not a good option. The Austrians on the other hand, I don't know...

So now we've got the 585 pages of the "Draft Agreement on the withdrawal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland from the European Union", dated 14 November 2018.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/site...greement_0.pdf

I wondered what it said about aviation - but so far I can't find anything! There is, as far as I can see, no table of contents, and no index. I guess we just have to scan the 585 pages....

Any ideas?!

airsound

well in that 585 page document the phrase:
EASA appears 0 times
CAA 0
aviation once, in the context of what is an acceptable identity card:

"Five years after the end of the transition period, the host State may decide no longer to accept national identity cards for the purposes of entry to or exit from its territory if such cards do not include a chip that complies with the applicable International Civil Aviation Organisation standards related to biometric identification."

Any other key terms...?

It's in the 7 page Future relationship document issued at the same time - so no detail yet, and after this morning's resignations who knows if the agreement will stand

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/site...greement_0.pdf

Articles 27and 28.Cover professional qualifications.

Thanks for those points, TURIN, robin and Snyggapa. I think, though, robin, that the URL you give is for the whole (585pp) doc. The seven-pager (actually 8) is at
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/site...eclaration.pdf

Anyway, we don't seem to be much further ahead - although the Articles 27 and 28 that you adduce, TURIN, do perhaps suggest that aircrew qualifications may not immediately become invalid after 29 March, as previously suggested. Does anyone else think that's what Articles 27 and 28 mean?

But there seems to be no mention of whether UK-built parts (including Airbus wings) will lose their certification, and aircraft will be grounded all over the place.

And, in any case, the utter political chaos here in Britain might mean that the whole 585pp will be rendered null and void before long, I suppose....

airsound

Article 75 - Definitions contains

Page 3 contains items such as 'competent licensing authority', 'Air Operator Certificate (AOC)' and 'scheduled air service' amongst others.

Thanks SamY. But, erm, forgive me if I'm being thick - but I'm not sure what Regulation (EC) 1008/2008 has to do with it! It's 10 years old (obviously) - and what I'm questioning is whether its definitions will still apply after 29 March 2019. Isn't that what this thread is all about? Or have I missed something.....

airsound

Elsewhere in the document is a section which says that "Professional Qualifications" will continue to be recognised.
Sounds like that will cover aircrew licences etc.

Thanks Ancient G. I saw that somewhere too, but now I can't find it! But it does sound like aircrew licences may be safe - contrary to what the CAA was warning, in the event of a no-deal at least.

But that still doesn't cover the situation where UK-built aircraft parts may lose their certification, with the risk of mass aircraft groundings. Anyone found any reference that might cover that?

airsound

Remember, this is only true only in the event of the deal being accepted.
In the event of a 'no-deal' - as it stands, professional qualifications will cease to be recognised after 29th March 2019 as per statement on EASA website.

Are we in or out of EASA with this deal, I am assuming in but with no influence?

In & your assumption is correct.
No-deal = we are 'out-out' & all professional qualifications issued by the UK CAA will be invalid as far as EASA are concerned.

Hawkeye63, up to a couple of days ago I would have agreed with you when you say: But, via BT News (not the phone co, but Business Travel), and Airlines UK, I've come across a "Communication" from the European Commission dated 13 November 2018 and referred to as a "Contingency Action Plan".
https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/brexit_files/info_site/communication-preparing-withdrawal-brexit-preparedness-13-11-2018.pdf.

It's 14 pdf pages long, and in its introduction it says: But it then goes on to deal with plans for financial services et al, including aviation. First it says: So far so good. But later there's much more:

Well, i do agree to a point. There is certainly some focus on aviation and keeping things flying for a bit longer, however, that is, at this point in time, basically an opinion of the Commission, but not yet law, and therefore would need some legal action to become that. As it would basically grant certain rights to a third country without any international negotiated agreement.

I think i said before, in the event that no conclusion on the withdrawal agreement negotiations can be reached, there will be several months before the actual date of withdrawal and that allows some time for a last second fudge on certain issues, this seems to be the first indication that the commission is of the same opinion. Which is not a bad sign, but every responsible business of course has to take into account that it might not materialise, and as far as i know, both Airbus and Easyjet, two of the most affected businesses in that sector, continue with their preparations in that kind of fashion.

airsound thanks for the info - I hadn't seen this. It appears to be a bit of a game changer to say the least!
This document certainly implies that the UK would automatically become a 'third country' member of EASA in the event of a no-deal thereby removing all ambiguity.
I need to find a quiet room to read it thoroughly.

I've been looking at the political declaration out today

This summary from the Guardian that shows not a lot has been happening

It's much worse than that.... In essence, if you read the so called political declaration, after 29.03.2019 the UK falls off the cliff edge. UK licenses (beit Pilots, Engineers or Truck drivers etc etc) are no longer valid. And, furthermore Cabotage rules will ground all UK airlines flying to the EU. And the bloody UK government agreed to this... And me, a UK citizen living in France, well I'm abandoned too.
I'm going to transfer my UK truck license to a French equivilent and I suggest any pilots, engineers etc get an EASA license whilst they still can.

What a mess.....

If anyone thinks that this will happen you are crazy. Too many vested interests and money at stake.

The text relating to EASA in the 26 page Political Declaration reads:

'The parties should treat one another as single entities....including certification....The parties will also explore the possibility of cooperation of United Kingdom Authorities with Union agencies such as the...European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA).

i.e. we're coming out of EASA but we'll try to align as closely as we can.

We have been lied to by the likes of Grayling and other ministers who all implied 'don't worry, of course we'll stay in EASA, it will be insane not to'

This is mind-blowingly stupid, the damage will be huge. From today onwards, all UK-based aviation businesses will hedge their bets by all pratical means to the detriment of UK plc

I am staggered that this isn't front page news today - either with May's Deal or No Deal, we are leaving EASA. This is monumentally idiotic. We will 'seek' and 'explore' close alignment but we will not be part of EASA. Why isn't the aerospace and aviation industry screaming the house down this morning? The CAA's ability (or not) to ramp up swiftly to take on the full burden of effectively replacing EASA has been highlighted over the couple of years. Why the silence? Airbus? BAe? What the hell is going on?

For those who haven't read it yet:

https://assets.publishing.service.go...by_Leaders.pdf

The way I understand it is that the UK would be leaving EASA but keep its national regulations aligned to allow future close cooperation. Regarding to licensing and certification, it will be interesting to see what is going to happen by 29th March 2019; if mutual recognition is ended, are we going to see a straight "guillotine" or perhaps some sort of grace period to allow effectively obtaining both EASA and UK national licences, certification etc?

The key point though is that we will be controlled, audited, regulated 100% by the UK CAA and not EASA as the UK will not accept the jurisdiction of the EJC. That, in every possible scenario, is very bad news.

In Politico yesterday - if the deal is agreed, it seems The UK will leave EASA at the end of the transition period (end of 2020). If the deal is not agreed, the UK will leave EASA on 29 March 2019.

Brexit declaration makes clear UK will not seek to stay in EASA
-- By Joshua Posaner and Jacopo Barigazzi
11/22/18, 12:13 PM CET
The U.K. will maintain “close cooperation” with the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), stopping short of membership, according to an expanded version of the joint political declaration on Brexit being discussed by EU ambassadors today.“Parties should make further arrangements to enable cooperation with a view to high standards of aviation safety and security, including through close cooperation between EASA and the United Kingdom’s Civil Aviation Authority,” the expanded declaration, obtained by POLITICO, said.The agreement sets out what should be negotiated over the coming months as part of a future relationship once Brexit happens and the transition phase ends. The expanded declaration calls for a new comprehensive air transport agreement to be worked up to cover everything from market access and investment to aviation safety and security, air traffic management, and provisions to ensure open and fair competition.That should also cover passenger rights and consumer protection, the deal said.In the joint declaration the two sides agree to maintain rail services like the Belfast-Dublin Enterprise Line and services through the Channel Tunnel. They also propose to set up an exchange of information between the European Maritime Safety Agency and the U.K.’s Maritime and Coastguard Agency.The text also calls for “comparable market access” for road transport operators.

To view online: https://www.politico.eu/pro/brexit-declaration-makes-clear-uk-will-not-seek-to-stay-in-easa/

That is appalling. For over 2 years I've had letters from the CAA and MPs saying completely the opposite - that we would aim to stay within EASA.

At such a late stage to rat on that position is criminal negligence

You are right, industry has been consistently assured that in one form or other we will remain a member of EASA by the CAA hierarchy, government departments and representatives - as of yesterday that was clearly and concisely exposed as an outright lie. We now categorically leave EASA at end of a transition period, or we crash out this March. Total and utter betrayal.

I am sure my UK employer had a fast track in the processing of the paperwork from both sides, but from UK to Austria it took me less than a month.

I have pondered the deafening silence from the aviation industry in all matters brexit for a while (and researched it a little) and have concluded that too much "fear and panic" would hit the forward booking hard come January, when the mainstream UK public traditionally start booking up their hols/flights for Easter onwards. This in turn would be the nail in the coffin for some airlines/holiday firms, which, let's be honest, are never that far from going belly up. Case in point, Thomas Cook, profit warning this week - didn't see any mention of a "brexit effect" anywhere (disclaimer, didn't look very hard, only read the bullets, so it might get mentioned in the small print). Where will Thomas Cook and the like be if the Great British Public circle their wagons and stay at home for the first six months of 2019? Which, by the way, is increasingly the advice of any number of travel journalists.

Furthermore, I suspect the "deafening silence" is about to end, as TM takes every possible opportunity to scare the bejeezus out of everybody, to get her deal signed up. Please don't take my post as having the remotest bremain/brexit/deal/no deal bias. I long ago gave up giving any sort of a poop how this plays out. Like most now I am purely concerned with circling my own wagons and staying aware of likely outcomes, so in order to avoid the mucky stuff as it flies every which way.

Interestingly, I have just read a beeb article re the Public Accounts Committee fears over border disruption in the no deal scenario. They claim the Department for Transport has been too secretive about its plans. And the DfT reply:

'The DfT says preparations need to be kept secret to avoid them damaging the commercial interests of the firms involved'

That is pretty much exactly what I am saying above re the "silence" from the aviation sector.

I have to say I am finding this increasingly difficult to follow because of all the differing interpretations of information!
So here's my 'two penneth';
The EU has issued a draft document expressing their wish is for the UK to remain in EASA after Brexit even in the event of a no-deal.
The UK CAA issued a statement expressing their preference is for the UK to remain in EASA.
TM's proposed deal expresses a wish to 'align' with EASA. What does this actually mean? Who knows for sure? Frankly you can discuss it until the cows come home. All I know is - it is surely in the interest of all holders of a 'professional qualification' to remain in EASA regardless of a deal or no-deal?
Personally I think TM is seeking a deal that keeps the UK in EASA until 2020 only to allow extra thinking time to fully assess the impact of leaving EASA because nobody is sure (just like the N.I. border).
Meanwhile we all sweat!

"Alignment" and "equivalence" are legal terms. Alignment actually means that you have to align your laws to those of the leading body (the EU in this case) with no divergence possible. Which of course would mean that the UK would have to incorporate EU law without any input to it, quite difficult in any case, and especially in this one. Equivalence means, that the individual legal approach of one country is deemed sufficiently equivalent to another that it allows to accept that set of laws to be equivalent, while not being the same. That happens between the EU and the US for example in quite a few areas (over 150 agreements between the EU and the US do exist today). However, equivalence can be cancelled by either side unilaterally with just 30 days notice, unless otherwise safeguarded. It needs constant work and consultation and is extremely labour intensive on the regulatory side for both parties.

That said, i haven't seen any statement of the EU (council or commission) that expresses any wish to keep the UK in EASA, just a preparatory notice that the EU would be willing to assume equivalence for the first few moments after a disorderly brexit, provided that the UK reciprocates, however, that is just an opinion for now and does not constitute a legal framework. As a "no deal" or rather disorderly brexit would become apparent a few weeks before brexit date, that could be hardened in emergency negotiations on that topic, however, for that it will compete with other stuff like medical transportation etc. as for example the UK cannot produce enough insulin on its own to keep its diabetics alive, most is imported from the EU. Air travel is important, but not necessarily a life or death scenario like other stuff is.

I think (not 100% sure) that under Article 50 intended actions on a no-deal brexit have to be clarified on or about 21st of January.