Reverserbucket
Maybe the management of the non-UK AOC organisation you refer to should (re)read the EU Notice to Stakeholders Certificates issued before the withdrawal date by the competent authorities of the United Kingdom on the basis of the provisions of the Basic Regulation and its implementing rules will no longer be valid as of the withdrawal date in the EU. This concerns in particular: Pilot licences, pilot medical certificates, certificates for pilot training organisations, certificates for aero-medical centres, certificates for flight simulation training devices, certificates for persons responsible for providing flight training, flight simulation training or assessing pilots' skill, and certificates for aero medical examiners, issued pursuant to Article 7 of the Basic Regulation; |
highcirrus
Thanks and yes, its been (re)read a number of times since April, hence my emphasis on currently holding UK CAA issued paperwork. Following 29 March could well be a different story as you and the EC have 'suggested' in their Notice to Stakeholders however for now, there are no hold pools for UK licenced applicants nor any proactive reduction in employment of UK licence holders. Interestingly, as we get closer, there are now some quite serious concerns about the potential impact of a "no-deal" departure on remaining EU industry. SES funding is certainly being looked at closely for example and EASA are currently engaged in a review of their fees and charging mechanism - neither explicitly as a consequence of a shrinking kitty but I've heard it inferred within the Commission and the Agency. |
As the government prepares to publish its no-deal technical notice on aviation later this week, ADS has sent a further letter to Sabine Weyand, asking again for technical discussions between the CAA and EASA (https://www.adsgroup.org.uk..., while Sky has obtained documents that show that the CAA is 'scrambling to make the necessary preparations for a no-deal Brexit' https://news.sky.com/story/...
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just read up the last 2 pages
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No Negan, you do not have to be a member of the single market but you do have to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. One of the British government’s red lines was that the ECJ influence in the UK ends when we leave. However, under the chequers plan they changed their mind and have now requested to remain part of EASA, whether this is agreed or not remains to be seen. |
The Civil Aviation Authority has put out a statement in response to Sky News’ report that British pilots would need to be reissued with their licenses and would no longer have them recognised by European Aviation Safety Agency in the event of a no deal Brexit.
The CAA decribed the Sky report as “misleading” and dismissed the idea that UK pilot licenses would cease to be valid in the EU without a Brexit deal. “Both commercial and private UK pilot licences would remain valid for use on UK-registered aircraft as the United Kingdom is a signatory to the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) Chicago Convention. Our licences are internationally recognised – including by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) – both now and after 29 March 2019.” The CAA also accused Sky News of further departures from reality with their claims that there would be turbulence in its ability to provide safety oversight to the aviation industry in the event of no deal, “strongly refuting” any suggestion they were concerned and dismissing Sky as “confused”. |
Negan
Outside the EEA there is no possibility of the UK gaining associate membership of EASA and, as detailed in this piece, the best we can hope for is a "Working Arrangement". This will, of course, require full regulatory alignment (including ECJ compliance). Further valuable reading here. |
Just seen this.
The second set of risk assessments are also expected to touch on security concerns, with papers expected on firearms and precursor drugs. But a paper on aviation that had been anticipated – amid warnings that planes could be grounded in an extreme scenario – is not due to appear. |
Originally Posted by highcirrus
(Post 10247444)
Negan
Outside the EEA there is no possibility of the UK gaining associate membership of EASA and, as detailed in this piece, the best we can hope for is a "Working Arrangement". This will, of course, require full regulatory alignment (including ECJ compliance). Further valuable reading here. thanks for the the link highcirrus, finally a commentator who actually understands the complexities. Im guessing the papers on aviation will be released sometime over the Christmas holiday period in the hope no one will notice. What are other UK based airlines doing in regards to Brexit planning? EasyJet seem to be the only ones implementing anything. |
We can join the ECAA and that solves most immediate issues at a stroke. WWW |
Originally Posted by Wee Weasley Welshman
(Post 10248110)
We can join the ECAA and that solves most immediate issues at a stroke. WWW |
Aren’t we in the ECAA already? |
The UK is currently part of the ECAA, brexit means the UK will no longer be part of the ECAA.
End of story |
Dr. Richard North mentions ECAA here.
One such treaty is the Multilateral Agreement on the establishment of a European Common Aviation Area (ECAA), which takes in all EU Member States and countries such as Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia, Serbia, Iceland and Norway. This Multilateral Agreement is a formal treaty, entered in the EU's treaty database, making it in every way equivalent to the EEA Agreement. And it too, by virtue of Article 31, includes a provision for termination, taking effect a year after notice has been given. The effect of membership of the ECAA, afforded by the Agreement, is to bind the contracting parties to full conformity with the EU's aviation acquis, including measure concerning safety, the environment and consumer protecting, in return for which full access is given to the EU's internal market in aviation. In relation to the vexed question of whether UK aircraft will be grounded after Brexit day – and whether aircraft registered by EU Member States would be prevented from using UK airports and air traffic facilities – it would appear that the status quo would apply and air operations may continue as normal. Undoubtedly, in rejecting the interpretation of international law which would otherwise keep us in the EEA, the UK must also refuse to accept that our membership of the ECAA continues after Brexit day. And, in that case, given a "no deal" exit, the provisions set out in the Commission's Notices to Stakeholders would apply, respectively here and here. The UK would thus cease to benefit from access to the skies of EU Member States and, on the basis of non-conformity with the safety provisions, UK registered aircraft would be refused landing rights in the territories of EU Member States, and UK airports could no longer be used by EU-registered aircraft. The impact of a "no deal" Brexit on air operations would thus be extraordinarily severe, so much so that many pundits argue that the UK and EU would quickly come to a deal which will permit resumption of the status quo. In other words, a "no-deal" Brexit would not actually mean a no-deal Brexit, certainly in respect of aviation. With the agreement of a side-deal, we would have a no-deal deal. |
I keep asking. Why would anybody risk anything, pick a European country and change your licenses now |
Technical Notices for a "No-Deal" Brexit
The UK Government Technical Notices in respect of Air Transport/Aerospace in the event of a "No-Deal" Brexit are due to be published week commencing 24 September. In light of recent events in Salzburg, can we still expect to see publication?
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In light of Salzburg it's important it is published ssap
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robin
Absolutely. We've all had enough of the "mushroom treatment". From 23.00 UTC, 29 March 2019 all our livelihoods will be at grave risk in the event of a "crash out" hard Brexit. I've written (again) to my useless, careerist, voting fodder excuse for an MP (Tory), more in anger than any hope of sentient return communication. If May can demand of the EU, I think it's time we (the UK population) all started to demand real, truthful answers of May. I'll post any reply I get (don't hold your breaths). |
I've had a reply from my MP that included a letter from the transport ministry.
As expected it was basically, Don't panic, There is nothing to worry your pretty little head about as we still are working on the premise there will be a deal that will keep us in EASA. Even if there isn't the CAA will keep us aligned with EASA for 2 years. Stress not, as they say |
Yup, I've had the same sort of guff in the past. These idiots don't seem to realise that to be in EASA, a nation has to be either a member of EU or EEA (or be special case Switzerland) and I also wondered at the time how the "CAA could keep us aligned to EASA for two years". I'm guessing they hope to "align" during a transition period up to 31 December 2020 in the event a Withdrawal Agreement is reached. This WA looks highly unlikely as May is now in a post Salzburg strop and seems hell bent on a crash out. Fasten your seat belts!
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Our company has asked those who have a UK issued EASA lic to check with the UK CAA that our medical records are up to date so if we need to transfer to another authority, that aspect is already sorted.
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Funny enough, the UK pretty much promises to let EU airlines continue to fly into the UK and hopes (hope? in a legal process?) the EU would reciprocate. Why would the EU do that? I mean, the EU gets the full deal and the UK nothing? That would help EU airlines quite a bit, wouldn't it?
The same as for flights is actually going to happen to channel ferries and trains. Which would pretty much isolate the UK from the EU on march 30th with the exception of NI. |
Question. How does this affect non-commercial flying? If you go to L2K for lunch will you need special permission? Looking forward to the next ramp check
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I can only imagine this all comes as a terrible shock to the tourist industries of Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy, France et al. Not to mention the Airbus manufacturing industry. Fortunately, the most lucrative routes, are over the Atlantic. Though I did hear that, 1 in 5 of all passengers in Spanish airports were travelling either to, or from the U.K. What a shame! Oh well. Onwards and upwards. |
Though I did hear that, 1 in 5 of all passengers in Spanish airports were travelling either to, or from the U.K. |
Originally Posted by Tandemrotor
(Post 10257591)
I can only imagine this all comes as a terrible shock to the tourist industries of Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy, France et al. Not to mention the Airbus manufacturing industry. Fortunately, the most lucrative routes, are over the Atlantic. Though I did hear that, 1 in 5 of all passengers in Spanish airports were travelling either to, or from the U.K. What a shame! Oh well. Onwards and upwards. Yeah, the most lucrative routes over the Atlantic - pity not many can use them until a replacement for the Bermuda II UK-US air transport agreement is put in place! For me, I don't understand why a system of bilateral agreements need to be in place - surely this should be at ICAO level rather than at EU or individual member level? What does anyone have to gain to go back to a 1980s system where only certain operators can operate certain routes, at certain times, which to be fair, still exists in many parts of the world. (I'm sure BA would love this system to return as they were really rolling in the money under this system). |
Hope? What "hope"?
As a retired professional negotiator ive been constantly stunned to see that our Government and "Negotiators" couldn't negotiate their way out of a paper bag. I wouldn't have paid DD in washers and poor Raab is simply now a mouthpiece for our crackers final position.
What's with this "hope" thing? It reminds me of that dreadful quip - "and the meek shall inherit the earth- if thats alright with you chaps." To me this is a straightforward. We have a superb negotiating position. Look at our geographic location. If we cannot fly to any EU country, a situation which is laughable posturing, then no EU generated flight can cross UK aerospace. Simples? Unworkable? Probably - but lets take the fight to the EU and stop rolling over! Nurse! The screens! |
Originally Posted by Tandemrotor
(Post 10257591)
I can only imagine this all comes as a terrible shock to the tourist industries of Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy, France et al. Not to mention the Airbus manufacturing industry. Fortunately, the most lucrative routes, are over the Atlantic. Though I did hear that, 1 in 5 of all passengers in Spanish airports were travelling either to, or from the U.K. What a shame! Oh well. Onwards and upwards. |
Originally Posted by sixchannel
(Post 10257728)
As a retired professional negotiator ive been constantly stunned to see that our Government and "Negotiators" couldn't negotiate their way out of a paper bag. I wouldn't have paid DD in washers and poor Raab is simply now a mouthpiece for our crackers final position.
What's with this "hope" thing? It reminds me of that dreadful quip - "and the meek shall inherit the earth- if thats alright with you chaps." To me this is a straightforward. We have a superb negotiating position. Look at our geographic location. If we cannot fly to any EU country, a situation which is laughable posturing, then no EU generated flight can cross UK aerospace. Simples? Unworkable? Probably - but lets take the fight to the EU and stop rolling over! Nurse! The screens! |
Not a lawyer but, There is a difference between overflying a nation versus landing in this nation. different rules apply. edit: Bulldog already mentioned this |
Brexit / Advantages for third party holder ?
This opinion slammed into my head this morning just like I had 5 tequila shots for breakfast:
me: EU citizen with Canadian commercial ( ICAO 3rd party ) and not over 1000tt yet my quest: just assumed it's gonna be a no deal and UK has to develop and figure out a brand new CAA from a to z with all subtopics in terms of air law, marshaller jacket colour and of course licensing validation and conversion; does anyone maybe belive that this could be a loophole for folks like me, trying to come home without conversion since EASA wouldn't be no longer Uk's principal ? Any assumption out there? "if you pull-houses become smaller-if you pull more, they become bigger again" |
Short answer: no.
The UK would have to decide to endorse / convert Canadian licenses to UK ones, and they would be UK national licenses that are not valid to operate EASA registered aircraft. |
Originally Posted by Longhitter
(Post 10262734)
Short answer: no.
The UK would have to decide to endorse / convert Canadian licenses to UK ones, and they would be UK national licenses that are not valid to operate EASA registered aircraft. can you guys follow? Sorry... It's a little mess and chaos but that's my situation |
Well the UK will not recognise an ICAO licence they will make you sit multiple exams to learn their laws of physics then charge you a heap of money for the privilege. |
Originally Posted by seabird007
(Post 10263374)
Who cares about EASA aircraft... I was just thinking of getting a job then somewhere in the UK where I don't have to convert my ICAO license and can fly UK aircraft but being "home " based somewhere in the UK.
can you guys follow? Sorry... It's a little mess and chaos but that's my situation |
Originally Posted by Denti
(Post 10263767)
Well, are you a UK citizen or have the right to work an reside in the UK? Which you would have to, being an EU citizen doesn't help there as you would need to get residency and that will be based on missing skills, which pilots won't be in all probability, there will be no preference for EU citizens post brexit. And to get residency status now you already have to be in the country for a while being in a job and earning a certain amount of money or having enough in the bank to support yourself including private health insurance.
my gf ( were both Germans) just recently got a job in Switzerland. A country that has never been part of the EU. So should i expect mpre difficulties in getting a visa of a former eu country than one that has never been a part? I think that visa thing won't be an issue since trade/internal market/nato and what else topics are still in discussion when Brexit has already been conducted. And vice versa by the way.. I mean how many UK citizens work across eu as a commuter? They wouldn't loose their jobs just because not having a eu passport all of a sudden. Just my opinion |
https://news.sky.com/story/juncker-b...-fail-11514505
Juncker: British planes may be stopped from landing in EU if Brexit talks fail You couldn't make this rubbish up could you, I wonder what he would think if we refused EU aircraft permission to fly in UK airspace, that would be make a heck of a long route to the US etc. |
Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 10263971)
https://news.sky.com/story/juncker-b...-fail-11514505
You couldn't make this rubbish up could you, I wonder what he would think if we refused EU aircraft permission to fly in UK airspace, that would be make a heck of a long route to the US etc. "There never was a real referendum campaign in Britain in the sense of an information campaign. The British, including government ministers, are only now discovering how many questions it raises. If talks [on air transport] go wrong, then no more British airplanes can land on the continent. People didn't know that, and they should probably have been told." I personally agree with him, and about the right to overfly UK...have you ever wondered what will happen to UK airlines if they can’t overfly Europe anymore? This war is bad for everyone, but let’s be honest: do you really think the EU is going to suffer more than the UK in case if no deal? |
On leaving th EU we automatically become a third country. That is a consequence of Article 50. Anything more than that needs to be negotiated, I expect the EU would rather like us to remain part of EASA. However, for that to happen we would have to accept ruling of the ECJ, which at present is still one of Mrs May’s Red Lines. |
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