Thing is, money rules the world, and money loves times of uncertainty and turmoil, which is of course a reason why Farages friends made already billions shorting the pound and others with setting up their fonds in ireland or malta. The old, but still true provert "buy when the cannons thunder" is not a bad indicator of that.

I don't think politicians know the minutiae of stuff like licenses, however, their support staff does. Which, in the end, does not matter all that much if ideology comes into play and that plays a huge role currently in british politics. Especially with the prominent role of the DUP and the weak parliamentary position of the Tories.

Maybe, just maybe, not the CAA & EASA officials - but have you ever MET a Minister of the Crown - let's just say the one's I have met over 40 years wouldn't be on University Challenge or Brain of Britain..............

the "Thick of it" wasn't a comedy - it was a documentary...............

UK CAA steps up planning for disorderly Brexit
 

Reuters 10 July 2018:

"UK aerospace industry body ADS has said it would take approximately 5-10 years for the CAA to rebuild its safety regulation capability to take over from EASA."

Meanwhile...?

superflanker

Precisely. I wonder if Theresa can come up with anything suitable now that two of her Three Stooges have resigned?

dboy

In this case, we likely stay in EEA as an EFTA member rather than currently as an EU member and therefore stay in EASA/current Air Service Agreements. But remember, we're plucky Brits who do things the hard way and respect "the will of the people" (TM Theresa May, HoC, 9 July 2018). So is soft brexit likely to happen under this current "government"?

It's not just aircraft and aviation.

The UK could, of course, decide ( or retaliate - take your pick ) that after the UK leaves the EU and is squeezed out of EASA, that cars need to have a UK issued Type Approval as those issued in France, Germany, Poland, Slovakia, Italy, Sweden, Spain, etc, are no longer applicable to a non-EU member.

Type Approval for Cars

Hussar 54

Vehicle Type Approval (VTA) might be a little off topic. However, I would think that UK using the issue as a retaliatory tool against the EU, post brexit, might be a little ill advised. Proceed with caution might be a better maxim, especially as VTA is actually a matter set above EU level by UNECE (United Nations Economic Commission Europe) and its WP.29 (Working Party .29) group. The link you provide seems to be slightly misleading in that it gives the impression that the EU sets VTA standards. This is not the case; the EU accepts the UNECE/WP.29 rules handed down (rule taking, as our politicians quaintly term it) and then issues its own Directives for the EU28 nations to implement.

Dr Richard North, yet again, provides interested parties with immaculately researched and reasoned pieces on his blog here and here. Well worth a concentrated read if you wish to attain knowledge greater than the sum total of our "government".

UK white paper released:

"...In some manufactured goods sectors where more complex products have the potential to pose a higher risk to consumers...the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) facilitate part of these regulatory frameworks.
the UK is seeking participation in these EU agencies, as an active participant, albeit without voting rights"

"a. for EASA, becoming a third country member via the established route under Article 66 of the EASA basic regulation, as Switzerland has;"

So, they want to stay in EASA.

The Future Relationship between the United Kingdom and the European Union
 

Published details here

The UK Government has been saying that from the start, it is not a sudden revelation. The Government even changed the 'Red-line' as regards ECJ jurisdiction to accommodate that wish.

Well, some of the government has been saying that.

We will see if EU lets UK choose whatever they seem to find advantageous and reject all those thing that are not.

Surely the UK remaining in EASA suits everyone?. It solves Airbus's problem of component certification and it provides a seamless transition for the airlines across Europe.

Is there a negative for anyone to the UK remaining in EASA?

After Brexit and leaving the EU the UK could remain an associate member of EASA, however it would have no influence, have to obey its rules and most importantly it would be subject to the ECJ. If Brexiteers are happy with that, which I would seriously doubt, then that would be a way forward. If not, the UK will no longer be part of Open Skies and all the benefits that brings.

Of course, UK remaining in EASA would be good for both EU and UK. But, again, they have to reach an agreement, and right now they are far from that.

Remaining in EASA is a viable answer, but yet to be agreed, if at all. However, how long would be it be before "us" as a UK CAA regulated work group (Pilots & Crew, Engineers, Ops, ATC et al), had a major problem with a rule from Brussels that we would have to comply with, but because we would have no voting or negotiating rights have no ability to change as an associate member of EASA? Isn't this the very perceived problem, i.e. dictated to by Brussels, that Brexiteers want to be rid of? Seems more like we would actually be more at the will of Brussels. Depending on who is leading/influencing the Government over the next few months, there could be a very strong resistance to remaining in EASA because of this, and a hard, non-negotiated exit becoming a reality so leaving the UK CAA and various agencies from other industries to pick up the pieces. Potential chaos!

"The EU organisation is like an omelette that Brexiteers seem to think we can now take the eggs out of, while still having an omelette at the end."

So it seems Airbus issued their threat at the request of HM Government!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...rexit-warning/

Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Switzerland, are all EASA associated countries (and have been for years) and operate without any great issues. I suggest that people are looking for problems where they dont exist. Remaining a Member of EASA meets the UK Government requirements and doesnt cross the red-line of ECJ jurisdiction.

I think you will find that as an associate member of EASA the ECJ red line would/could be crossed. Any dispute within EASA of those countries, (full or associate members), signed up to it are subject to the ECJ.

I cannot see the hard line Brexiteers being happy as an associate member with no influence and subject to the ECJ.

Over the 10 years it took to agree Open Skies the UK had a major influence. It still does within EASA.

If agreement cannot be reached then UK airlines are in danger of being excluded from EASA and the Open Skies Agreement. That is why easyJet and Thomas Cook are moving their HQ's to Europe. Furthermore the major EU airlines are badgering their governments to exclude UK airlines from open skies because of the benefits it brings them.

Below is a list of possibilities if the UK is excluded from EASA and the Open Skies Agreement.

The UK would have to negotiate sovereignty over its airspace via ICAO, IATA and the 27 EU countries
Probable very limited “freedoms” of the air within the EU
Traffic rights given by bilateral agreements
EU countries traditionally protect national carrier and limit/prohibit competition. UK would probably do the same.
Use only of designated airports
Often single airline designation between airports leading to increased fares due lack of competition
Limited frequencies / capacity
Double approval for fares leading to increased fares
Pooling agreements between airlines leading to increased fares
Most airlines state-owned with independent airlines facing unfair competition as governments protect their own

All this countries are in the EEA. I don't think that there is any country that is in EASA and not in the EU/EEA.
UK has been constantly rejecting the offer from Europe to remain in the EEA and customs union.

Getting an Irish EASA licence may indeed be the answer, to fly in Europe or on EASA aircraft.

But what if you wanted to return to the UK and fly for a UK operator? Where is the guarantee that an Irish EASA licence will be valid in the UK, post-Brexit?

And the CAA appear to have stopped issuing UK CAA licences, to go alongside the EASA licence. So the only thing I have now is a UK EASA licence that may not be valid in March.

Will the CAA issue pledge to UK licences to all EASA licence holders, so that we can return to the UK at any time and take up employment there?

ST

Or alternatively, all the major UK airlines will move their operations to Ireland and Austria, just as R.yan and E.asy are doing at present, and the UK CAA will be left with nothing to administer. Needless to say, if all their aircraft are registered in the EU by EASA, then all their engineers and pilots will have to follow suit and get EU-EASA licences.

In which case, in two years time the UK CAA will have nothing to administer, and will close down.
Do the heads of the CAA understand the implications?

ST

Switzerland is not in the EEA

silvertate

Yep, looks like this is the likely scenario. I've been telling my non-retired friends for some time that they will need to obtain EASA licences by end of March 2019. Needless to say, the uniform response is along the lines of "it won't happen, THEY won't allow it". Good luck guys!

Whatever happened before we were in the EU? However do US, Australian, South American, etc. pilots manage to fly around the World? Or even into the EU? OMG we're doomed .....

If they want to fly EU registered aircraft, they have to obtain an EASA license.

I don't really see the point of denying that this mess can cause some problems.

Indeed, it is an EFTA member, and does not have all freedoms of the air in the EU unlike the other ones.

Where is the "Sit back and eat popcorn" emoji? I'm loving this. As an absolute detester of EASA and it's wayward, short sighted and non sensical approach to a lot of issues that affect a number of pilots in the EU/Europe/No mans land....I hope the UK take a more pragmatic, realistic approach to a lot of issues. However, I think that the UK CAA, led by the Sheep at the top and the bureaucrats below, will just adopt all the EASA regulation, whether appropriate, inappropriate, relevant or otherwise, to try and "fit in" and upset the apple cart as little as possible. Its a shame, because actually, they could do an awful lot of good in a lot of areas with a "clean sheet".

For all you "remoaners" as well as you "Brexiteers".....fear not....there won't be a monumental collapse, once all the dick swinging is out of the way.

Dont mention the war. Vive La Revolution. Etc

Hi Triple Nickel 8 Ball

Enjoyed your post, gave me a good chuckle. Just so we know, can you explain to us how "there won't be a monumental collapse", (presumably) after a hard brexit and UK becomes a Third Country and hence a Third Country Operator (TCO), suddenly not being an EASA member and unable to be party to the Open Skies Agreement at 23.00 hrs UTC on 29 March 2019? Just asking like.

Because "It'll be alright on the night" my good chap (or "chapess"?). Remember that the likes of GAMA, are essentially, still dictating terms/legislation to the UK CAA, as well as influencing EASA. I'm not convinced that all the UK trained and UK CAA issued EASA licence holders will be left crying into their Corn Flakes, wherever in EASA land they may be flying. Neither am I convinced that Lord Smartypants (CP at BA) and his opposite number at EZ et al Brit airlines, will be expected to be a "Third Country" licence holder. PAH!! (spits on the floor), can you imagine any of these people actually being likened to a (insert, overly dramatic, "Psycho" film musical overtone here) FAA/American Pilot???!!!!! Heaven forbid. They'd have to prove their mettle all over again by sitting a load of nonsensical, boring, laborious, time consuming exams, to prove that their 5000 hours in multi crew jets were actually worth anything (??).

No, no, ...... tranquilo/tranquila......they won't want to be made to sit all the 14 exams (can you imagine an 80's BA 747 Jockey having to do that!!!). Sitting the exams and doing flight skills tests again, so as to be issued an EASA licence off the back of their ICAO issued one, won't happen. HOWEVER......I will absolutely laugh my pants off and shout from the top of some place, very high, if they are made to. Maybe I will see a lot of you at Bristol Groundschool and, they had better get some bigger premises. Theres a couple of big hangers for rent in Cardiff I think? Maybe UK CAA issued EASA pilots will be given a sensible validation option? Maybe EASA, in it's infinite stupidity, sorry, I mean wisdom, will actually, just pull the cat out of the bag and let everyone off? With certainty though, I think I can say that everyone will be "safe" and it will be a storm in a teacup.

Thats said....if they DO come up with a sensible validation process, for ICAO ATP holders and the likes, at least we can bring a load of Americans to GB to help with the pilot shortage. WINNER! WINNER! Chicken dinner!

Triple Nickel 8 Ball

So basically, you're just keeping your fingers crossed?

But what do you do if you want to come back to the UK? Keep swapping licences? Or will the UK CAA allow you to keep two licences.

If the UK CAA don't get their act together, every airline in the UK may well migrate to Ireland, and all the aircraft, engineers and pilots will follow.
And then the UK CAA may well close their doors and disband.
But I get the impression that the UK CAA management are Europhiles, and would love to see the failure of the UK CAA, just to teach the Brexiteers a lesson.

ST

NOOOOOOO!! You misunderstand me.....I really don't care a toss is what I'm saying. In fact, this piece of legislation has been doing me up the wrong one for years in one way or another. The only concern I have is what licence I will get issued when I finish my heli licence in a month or so....maybe the shortest timespan for a licence held ever??? LMFAO. Maybe I need to look harder in my breakfast cereal packets to see what licence I can find in there and who issued it?

No....I've been chasing my tail with EASA for YEARS.....they are a clueless bunch of "feckwits", inventing legislation because they are told to by the big players in aviation (to screw up the small guy) or doing it, to justify the huge numbers of staff and bureaucrats, justifying their posts. The UK CAA are sheep....without control of their own regulation who, now there is a possibility of not being guided by a leash, have started to panic and fall even further apart. They have little or no reason for a lot of useless legislation and the Third Country Maintenance, Licensing and spares issue, is now becoming more of an issue for UK CAA issued EASA licence holders and suppliers, whereas the reality of that particular bit of nonsense has been a pain in the ass of a lot of Third Country engineers and pilots, for YEARS....and they haven't given a crap. I just hope they come up with a sensible validation process for all, that covers ALL third country people....but I am sure it won't. Selective legislation at its finest again.

I wonder, if we had a poll and, if everyone was HONEST....how many people on here voted to Leave the EU and who are now bitching about the consequences????????

As unlimited US access to LHR was the Jewel in the crown for the US Airlines in the Open Skies agreement I wouldn't bet against Trump pulling out of that agreement once the US lose that access through the UK no longer being part of the deal.

Then everyone is back to square one.

Has Ireland got the capacity? They will need massive expansion.