listening to the live atc feed of the accident , I'm getting a little confused if the go around was initiated by the ATC ( recording not very clear ) but the pilot response of climb 4000Ft is very clear . which is pretty much the last conversation , and then after about 10sec you hear a voice saying " did you see that " so that would have been the time of the impact .

That is why I started to always say "Go-around, TOGA, Flaps 20". Not exactly SOP but the sim instructor can debrief it later as the only minor issue on the properly flown go-around procedure.

Would be interesting to know what EK's B777 legal temperature operating limitations are as 120f is the normal limitation for most Boeing aircraft. DXB METAR temp as reported was 49c or 120.2f. . . Such limits however, can vary by airline in that they may be extended by Boeing if the airline is willing to pay extra $$ for special engineering (extrapolation) data.

In the USA, many Boeing operators cannot legally operate at temps of 120f or higher. EK I would expect, is in possession of higher limits.

or even better on the NG,

Goaround, flaps 15, check thrust

This is what I am doing
This is what I need
This is what I want you to check

So one side of the aircraft is smoking with the engine visible on top of the wing and on the left side no flames or smoke but three perfectly good doors can't be used because the slides were flapping in the wind or blown up against the open door.

With a fire truck and firemen on the ground powerless to speed up the evacuation.

Can't we do better?

Mickjoebill

Re: 49 degrees oat. Does it still happen that the actual temerature is above 50 degrees, but the official temperature is kept at 49? There seems to be a local law, stating that on days with 50+ degrees, all manual labor is halted. So they warp reality and officially keep it at 49.
Of course engines at go-around thrust don't listen to this artificial temp. They perform according to actual ambient conditions.

There was/had been a fire on the Left side

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/...0248867654.jpg

@sitigeltfel #305 above
Does that flap still look to be set at 30?

XEQUE--- yes I also look at the Flap position and question it.....doesn't look to be 30, hard to tell?

It looks more like Flap 20, which is the go around flap setting. It certainly doesn't look like Flap 30.

The following video shows a 777-300ER with Flap 20 at 8:01:
https://youtu.be/Xtwne9UbH8o?t=481

Flap 30 at 8:45:
https://youtu.be/Xtwne9UbH8o?t=525

Of course the Emirates aircraft could have been using Flap 25 for landing, given the conditions.

xyze

The point is how quickly a fuselage made of aluminium and surrounded by flammable liquid and an uncontained fire can be reduced to a charred shell, even with Dubai RFF going above and beyond the call of duty. Any doubt, get out.

MickJoeBill,

further to your comments about evacuation slides being blown around and rendered useless thereby, a similar issue came to my attention with the Korean Air incident at Haneda back on May 27th.

(see http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...-2708-hnd.html)

If (as I believe is recommended in an engine fire scenario) the aircraft is positioned with the wind blowing the fire and smoke away from the fuselage, rather than towards it, this might create a problem with the slides on the 'safe' side.

I don't know if there is an answer to this problem.

As most on here will know - On a go around, particularly one initiated at a low level, if you don't pitch up at the same time as you apply the thrust then you just accelerate towards the ground at a frightening rate - I've seen it in the sim many times.

I have also seen, sitting at the holding point with a sub 200 foot cloud base, a 747 exit the overcast apparently still on the glideslope with the wheels in transit and very nearly impact the ground as it climbs back into the overcast.

LOW GA + THRUST BEFORE PITCH + TAILWIND COMPONENT/HIGH ROD + AMBIENT CONDITIONS ?

Just a thought

Nice bit of sleuthing Master Reid. Using your date, I was able to discover the probable cause was a kettle warmer left on while she sat parked and empty.

A CATHAY L1011 EVAC in Tokyo Haneda a long time ago suffered the same problem of the slides blowing in the wind rendering them useless.....

Heard that all the crew of EK521 is put up in a hotel so that they cannot talk to media or any one else.

Is this true....???????

UK news have several interviews from passengers who all speak very good English and all confirm that there was no cabin call pre-warning them before crashing.

This is SOP

Do we need slides that are better windproofed? In most cases any winds will blow from the nose to the tail so just some minor stabilization (like a rope or some inflatable "anchor" or similar) might make more evacuations slides available?

This was a RR powered 777.


The radio call from tower for the GA, and the reply from the PM, does not mean that the GA was instructed by the tower. The ATC controller was most likely paying attention and rather than wait for the call from EK521, he was proactive and eliminated a 3rd transmission on tower's freq.
The call to tell tower about a GA is pretty low on my priority list, especially in close proximity to the runway.

While quiet, you can hear the CA command the evac in the evac video. Sounded SOP to me.

Just been reported on Australian TV news that the Australian copilot of the aircraft is a Qantas employee and is currently on leave without pay. That makes no sense as Qantas has no 777's. Has to be a misreport.

Nope perfectly possible, quite a few surplus QF crew went on LWOP and joined many different Airlines. Some had never flown the type they were employed on and were therefore trained. Most will come back to QF, some won't.

Simple.


Oh and it is a standard call for Military Towers in Australia to say "clear to land check wheels" the reply is "three greens" ( or whatever the type has!! )

Rumor around at Costa is that it was wake of the preceding AC combined with winds

ACMS : Yes. And if the resultant prang & slide was not anticipated by the crew, everyone did a mighty fine job of handling, instantly, the evacuation. Total praise for that last bit and all, but one, survived. Now, lining up the holes and the blame game will be noteworthy.

Slides - IIRC there was a good discussion about the issues way back when they introduced the 747 and Tripp of PanAm was worried about how people would get off

If you make them very stiff they are heavy (bad for economics) and can be dangerous to both the passengers, the fire crews and the airframe. - there is also a problem in fitting and deploying a "hard" slide.

And if you want them to double as temporary life rafts...................

No that's possible as QANTAS pilots are flying for EK on secondment. Always a better option than being made redundant.

.

Interesting how little information has been released just over 24 hours after the incident.

Who are the investigating authorities ?

Emirates B777 gear collapse @ DXB?
 

Re the earlier pics of the flaps. Is it not normal to lower 40 (or more) flap during the evac drill?

Not on the 777. There are over wing slides.

Not really, the GCAA who would be responsible will follow protocol , gather information and issue an interim report when they have it. It will just state facts. Within 28 days I think and would include any essential safety recommendations.

Who is investigating?
Is this in Dubai where the temperature never exceeds 50c, the building workers are shipped out each night to camps, a foreigner is automatically guilty in a road accident, you have to pay a bribe to get a drivers licence etc etc?

Let's not hope its the locals but I am afraid it will be...

So, assuming the aircraft was experiencing a significant tailwind, had got high/fast, had the thrust back at idle and decided to do a 'normal' but rather late go-around: how long would it take for the engines to spool up enough to climb once the appropriate buttons/levers had been pressed/pushed?

I don't think anyone at present knows exactly how long it took for the fire in this incident to be extinguished. Clearly not in time to save the cabin, which judging from the haze/smoke visible in the videos available of the interior immediately after the accident may have been breached during the crash landing itself. Contrast this with the SQ event in which the cabin had not been compromised and fire crews were dousing flames within a minute from the time the aircraft stopped, based on video of the event. That same video shows that the starboard wing fire appeared to be being effectively suppressed by the fire services within 90 seconds of 'first foam'.

Might it have gone otherwise, and the fire been less easily contained? Yes, in which case presumably the AFS would have communicated this fact to the commander - no doubt continuously re-evaluating his decision not to evacuate - who could've acted accordingly.

Aussie FO on secondment from QF confirmed.

Australian co-pilot Jeremy Webb escaped Emirates plane crash in Dubai

The AIB at the state of occurrence will be in charge of the investigation, in this case the GCAA.

Now the AIB is supposed to be impartial but in the UAE it is organized under the governing body of the GCAA - This is in my opinion a problem!

In most countries the AIB is completely separated from CAA to make sure that an investigation will be conducted without pressure from the governing authority.

Who owns Emirates, who owns the GCAA and who controls the AIB?

Lets see how they can spin it!

That said Boeing, RR and probably the ATSB will be accredited to the investigation.

So how will Emirates 'buy' themselves back into ignoring a hull loss as an accident when the safety records are compiled?


In passing I note Gulf news yesterday stated "Emirates suffers first hull loss in three decade history'. And today one of their headlines read "Emirates safety record - Zero deaths in 30 years".

Emirates B777 gear collapse @ DXB ?
 

Forwarded to me from a mate who had it forwarded to him :

" My mate is with flydubai and he saw the crash live :
Yeah I was crossing runway behind it as it landed ....front row seat ... they landed hard, aborted , go around, gear up ... not enough power and it sank back into the runway .... some are saying windshear but we felt nothing. Crazy site to see ...even crazier that apparently most people survived ! I thought it was a total loss for sure.
This was on the fo group chat "



The above message was posted as it was received. I can't verify its authenticity and make of it what you will.

Finger trouble with the TOGA switches?:confused:

Sounds plausible. I do wonder if the B777 "landed with equal weight on wheels on each side, whether the spoilers auto-deployed, and whether idle reverse was selected on "touchdown"? And of course whether TOGA was selected promptly? Many unanswered questions.

As for the cabin crew, clearly they performed their job well as a team.

If you cannot tell the difference between the two incidents then I hope you are not flight deck crew.