From 700 m (2310 ft) to zero in 20 secs, means 6930 ft/min??? It means 126 Km/h and 70 Kts hat's only covering about 150m in 4s, so it's not hitting very fast: about 80 knots |
Excuse me guys, but which part of this:
Originally Posted by МАК
Под действием кабрирующего момента от тяги двигателей, самолёт перешёл в набор высоты и достиг угла тангажа около 25°. Приборная скорость начала уменьшаться. Экипаж произвёл уборку шасси. С момента начала ухода на второй круг до этого времени активных действий по штурвальному управлению самолётом экипаж не предпринимал. После уменьшении скорости со 150 до 125 уз экипаж начал управляющие действия колонкой штурвала по переводу самолёта в пикирование, которое привело к прекращению набора высоты, началу снижения самолёта и росту приборной скорости. Максимальные углы атаки в процессе полёта не превышали эксплуатационных ограничений.
Самолёт, достигнув высоты 700 м, начал интенсивное пикирование с углом тангажа, достигшим к концу полёта -75° (концу записи). Самолёт столкнулся с землёй с большой скоростью (более 450 км/ч) и большим отрицательным углом тангажа. Aeroplane pitched up on her own to 25°, no pitch input on yokes was recorded. Only when speed dropped to 125 kts someone in the cockpit pushed the nose downward to 75° just before impact which occurred at speed above 450 km/h. There was no stall, oh-so-severe-pitch-up-with-underslung-engines was not just contained but killed and Soviet AH are different from usual ones in roll, not pitch.
Originally Posted by 9gmax
Could it be a case of Vestibular/somatogravic illusions?
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Just Transaero S7 and Aeroflot?
The problem comes when you book with Aeroflot for connecting flights, you may get Donavia or other companies without much information or little opportunity to change flights.
S7 scares me badly as they really dont appear to have much of a safety culture at all. I have flown with them a few times and have been a bit worried about taking off with snow on the wings, and some very uncomfortable landings. Far worse landings than I have had with any other airline, I can accept a go around when it is required, but seeing the wing tip get only a couple of meters from striking the ground in a crosswind landing is frightening. |
As SLF I cant really critique your analysis, but judging by two factors, your very sensible, reasoned and logical previous posts, and obvious experience it sounds quite plausible.
I found the video clips really disturbing as I was shocked by the angle in which the aircraft hit the ground. I have studied transport accidents as part of my masters in risk management and investigation, so the combination of errors which led to Kegworth, Potter's Bar, Everglades, Ladbroke Grove disasters are very familiar. The Swiss cheese lined up in a certain way, but the errors were subtle and deceptive. What I struggle with is that an aircraft can impact at such an angle. |
Ummm...
"The problem comes when you book with Aeroflot for connecting flights, you may get Donavia or other companies without much information or little opportunity to change flights."
One word. Colgan. |
Mercury Dancer, the way we teach landings (in gliders) is to aim at the ground and then miss. If you fail to perform correctly the second part of this procedure, the aircraft will then stick in the ground like a dart. This more or less holds true for approach and safe landing in most types.
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Jeez! Why do all the theories have to be to most complex and least probable?
Look at the simplest reason for loss of control and you'll "probably" have the "right" answer. All this :mad: about somatogravic xyz or flap fail/fuel imbalance (certain balls) is all very well The most likely cause is quite simply overpitching due to a mishandled g/s and botched recovery, I'd be astonished if it were anything else. if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck.... |
if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck.... Am surprised nobody's started bleating about Boeing should change the autopilot logic etc etc:ugh: |
if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck.... |
if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck.... |
So if we regard the somatogravic illusion as a potential "threat" how should this be managed?
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So if we regard the somatogravic illusion as a potential "threat" how should this be managed? |
9gmax
Could it be a case of Vestibular/somatogravic illusions? ...Anybody wants to comment?.... All this *** about somatogravic xyz or flap fail/fuel imbalance (certain balls) is all very well The most likely cause is quite simply overpitching due to a mishandled g/s and botched recovery, I'd be astonished if it were anything else. It is impossible to demonstrate this effect in a simulator during training due to the lack of 'g' effects. This pilot may not have even been aware of the phenomenon judging by the previous comments about how the training and qualifications are achieved. |
Quote:
Could it be a case of Vestibular/somatogravic illusions? ...Anybody wants to comment?.... We did; in posts #96, 98 & 99. ....post 39... |
It is impossible to demonstrate this effect in a simulator during training due to the lack of 'g' effects. This pilot may not have even been aware of the phenomenon judging by the previous comments about how the training and qualifications are achieved. Which is where, IMHO, all pilots should learn about recovery from unusual attitudes. A few hours per year in an aerobatic trainer should be part of maintaining currency and is not expensive. |
The somatogravic illusion (SI) cannot be taught in the air. The standard IF syllabus demonstrates the corilis effect and the somatogral illusuion, but the SI cannot be taught in either aircraft or simulators. To induce it, you need a sustained peripd of acceleration and experience shows that if you are expecting it, it's not going to happen to you. It can only be taught in the groundschool phase with advice on how to counter it. Mitigating strategies such as making sure you stay on instruments and don't descend on take off or during a go-around can be introduced in night and IF syllabi, but demonstrating it effectively has so far eluded the flying training systems.
I have been conducting some research into the SI and have come up with some interesting facts. First, it's nearly impossible to adequately train for in practical terms. This, is mentioned above. Second, it's been killing people for years and it continues to. I have details of about 200 crashes where the SI is a probable cause of a crash, but there are undoubtedly many more, as the SI is often not understood or identified by accident investigators, and for the sobering statistic that the fatality rate for SI accidents is about 85%. Pilots don't generally live to tell the tale! Third, many pilots are aware of the illusion, but fail to recognise it when it happens to them. This is because it is a dim and distant memory from their Human Factors and Performance syllabus - if they did it! Don't forget, HPF was only really introduced as a mandatory subject in the early 1990s. In my opinion, this crash is a classic SI case. |
A light airplane doesn't have the thrust to weight, speed, and acceleration of a jet aircraft. So it's better than a simulator but the inability to generate the acceleration of an airliner on a G/A makes it a poor comparison.
Worst vertigo was a light weight, night, 757 ferry flight LGA-JFK. Max power for windshear in the area(SOP). LGA 13. Tremendous acceleration. Right turn to 175 immediately after liftoff. In the turn tower changes it to left to 060 and level off at 2000'. In the turn, leveling, power coming back, unloading from high rate of climb ... and we go into the clouds ... and moderate turbulence. Bam! Perfect storm. Vertigo. Big time. SOP is to call it out "I've got vertigo". FO - "I do too." :sad: Tough stuff when you're fighting it. Experience and training is key. |
You don't need much acceleration to generate the somatogravic illusion. As it's pure geometry it can be calculated. An acceleration of 30kts over a period of 10 seconds is equivalent to 1.54m/sē, which translates into a perceived pitch up of 9°. As many aircraft climb at a lesser angle than this, the aircraft can conceivably enter a descent if the illusion is not correctly countered.
This means that pilots of low powered GA aircraft are just as susceptable as jet pilots. And the staistice reflect this. Somatogravic illusion accidents either tend to occur during go-arounds for airliners, but GA aricraft it's usually on take off at night in VMC at airfields in spasrely populated areas where there are few visual clues. |
This means that pilots of low powered GA aircraft are just as susceptable as jet pilots. And the staistice reflect this. |
More about Illusions
There is a nice Article about piloting illusions. Good to read.
Sensory illusions in aviation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia |
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