easyjet pilots to strike??
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In the land of the yellow harp about half your money is sector pay, and it comes at a rate of 50% for the first 6 mths after final line check...
And you think we've been shafted???
And you think we've been shafted???
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Southern
....and without the intervention of balpa you would have
to pay for car parking
lose fixed roster patterns and RDOs
let rostering managers, without fear of penalty, change your roster at will
remove crew food
reduce sector pay anyway
no sector pay for sim duties
an RPI pay increase
No disruption pay
Now that's what was on offer when balpa joined the negotiations late last year.
Would you have accepted that?
....and without the intervention of balpa you would have
to pay for car parking
lose fixed roster patterns and RDOs
let rostering managers, without fear of penalty, change your roster at will
remove crew food
reduce sector pay anyway
no sector pay for sim duties
an RPI pay increase
No disruption pay
Now that's what was on offer when balpa joined the negotiations late last year.
Would you have accepted that?
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Flaps,
Of course no-one would have accepted the original deal, more insulting than slapping my grandmother. BUT despite Balpa's help, there is still an erosion in pilots terms.
So it's better than it could of been, doesn't make it any good though.......
Of course no-one would have accepted the original deal, more insulting than slapping my grandmother. BUT despite Balpa's help, there is still an erosion in pilots terms.
So it's better than it could of been, doesn't make it any good though.......
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Say again s l o w l y
I agree it's not good but it's better than we would have had.
Without Balpa intervention pilots would have left in droves - me included.
The fact remains that, had Balpa membership been higher, say 75% or more, this deal would probably have been rejected because industrial action would have had a better chance of success.
I must have read 10 or more different analyses of how the offer affects different people but, so far, for every one that claims they are worse off financially another analysis claims the opposite. There are some erosions but also some gains. Having read the figures eveyone is financially better off when ALL the details are considered.
But this whole business was never really about money. It was about overall Ts and Cs and I HOPE that the potential financial penalty to the pockets of Ops/Crewing managers if they screw up on rostering protocols will focus their minds to achieving stable rosters and the lifestyle we all want.
I agree it's not good but it's better than we would have had.
Without Balpa intervention pilots would have left in droves - me included.
The fact remains that, had Balpa membership been higher, say 75% or more, this deal would probably have been rejected because industrial action would have had a better chance of success.
I must have read 10 or more different analyses of how the offer affects different people but, so far, for every one that claims they are worse off financially another analysis claims the opposite. There are some erosions but also some gains. Having read the figures eveyone is financially better off when ALL the details are considered.
But this whole business was never really about money. It was about overall Ts and Cs and I HOPE that the potential financial penalty to the pockets of Ops/Crewing managers if they screw up on rostering protocols will focus their minds to achieving stable rosters and the lifestyle we all want.
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flaps, i do not want to play "I got the last word " and would prefer to have played this part of the game on our private forum, however, you are sadly wrong .
Before BALPA, we did have 6on 3 off,
we did have crew food( your suggestion it remains is only partially correct as we are paying for it ourselves now),
we had much better sector pay,
we have had disruption pay ( considerably more than this offer , 1999 £6000/£4000)
we have had better than RPI increase
and at least we got a night stop allowance for sim and SEPs which we no longer get.
And we also had a crew contribution policy, no penalties I admit.
And newly promoted captains had parity in pay to other captains not a 10% cut ( or whatever you wnt to call it)
Apart from cocking all that up what else have the Romans done for us.................
Before BALPA, we did have 6on 3 off,
we did have crew food( your suggestion it remains is only partially correct as we are paying for it ourselves now),
we had much better sector pay,
we have had disruption pay ( considerably more than this offer , 1999 £6000/£4000)
we have had better than RPI increase
and at least we got a night stop allowance for sim and SEPs which we no longer get.
And we also had a crew contribution policy, no penalties I admit.
And newly promoted captains had parity in pay to other captains not a 10% cut ( or whatever you wnt to call it)
Apart from cocking all that up what else have the Romans done for us.................
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I don't want to play last words either but:
Most of that was being taken away, that's the point!
.
.
.
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...........edited because I totally agree this would be better on the company forum.
As for the Romans.....................splitters!
Most of that was being taken away, that's the point!
.
.
.
.
...........edited because I totally agree this would be better on the company forum.
As for the Romans.....................splitters!
Last edited by FlapsOne; 4th Feb 2003 at 00:20.
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The usual smoke and mirrors from BALPA. 'We know we have achieved nothing guys, but look at what might have happened'. Problem is, as has been admitted on these pages, any form of action will not happen. These forums may be dominated by the moaners and militants but the bottom line is that the majority never read them and are basically happy with their lot. Industrial action is a non starter in Easy or any of the other low cost or charter airlines. AND THEY KNOW IT. BALPA will never achieve anything that the companies will not happily give. At least their members have one advantage, they can give themselves a 1% pay rise.
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carruthers
You speak a lot of sense and I agree that what you say is probably what is happening.
However, let us be under no illusion that the dye is cast. We still have to have a ballot and I am not underestimating the strength of feeling of easyJet pilots on these issues.The anger that existed about no rostering agreement and therefore no lifestyle is still evident even though we now have a rostering protocol. However we once had something called the CCP!!! What good is any agreement unless it is binding?The council have worked extremely hard on these negotiations and have presented us with what they consider an acceptable agreement, but it is the electorate who will decide if it is acceptable. That is the law and that is the process that will be followed.
Personally, I think we have turned a corner, but I am a long way from thinking the future is bright..... and I for one am pulling some of those irons out of the fire.
However, let us be under no illusion that the dye is cast. We still have to have a ballot and I am not underestimating the strength of feeling of easyJet pilots on these issues.The anger that existed about no rostering agreement and therefore no lifestyle is still evident even though we now have a rostering protocol. However we once had something called the CCP!!! What good is any agreement unless it is binding?The council have worked extremely hard on these negotiations and have presented us with what they consider an acceptable agreement, but it is the electorate who will decide if it is acceptable. That is the law and that is the process that will be followed.
Personally, I think we have turned a corner, but I am a long way from thinking the future is bright..... and I for one am pulling some of those irons out of the fire.
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The usual smoke and mirrors from BALPA. 'We know we have achieved nothing guys, but look at what might have happened'.
What I stated was from the company proposal BEFORE Balpa ever got involved - so that was their starting position.
How about this as a proposal:
All non-members of Balpa can have what the company offered prior to Balpa involvement, and Balpa members can vote on whether they wish to accept what is currently on offer.
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Southern Softy wrote;
Before BALPA, we did have 6on 3 off,
Under the original deal it was going, now it's staying. Some can opt out now and go to ad hoc crewing. True BALPA didn't gain it for us, but they've kept it for us.
we did have crew food( your suggestion it remains is only partially correct as we are paying for it ourselves now),
Under the old deal it was going, BALPA members voted conclusively for crew food to remain. It has done.
All your seeing now is the cost (£1100) that the employer bears. Prior to this when we had crew food the cost was still there to the company. This is a little bit of propaganda for the company to make you want to give up crew food. "Ooh, I could have an extra £1100 BEFORE tax in my pocket."
Under the old deal you would have got the £1100, big deal, after tax at 40% and NI of around 10% not much left to feed yourself with.
You were always paying for the crew food. Just this year they [the co] didn't want the hassle of providing it. As a sweetner to get you to give it up they've offered you money. Since crew food arrived they never offered you the money but it will always have been factored into the costs of an employee, just like uniform, 2 free tickets etc etc is in other airlines.
we had much better sector pay,
For Captains it hasn't changed much but for SFO it has gone down by £4. However with the increase in basic it offsets the drop in sector pay. The basic is pensionable so you're getting more in your pension too.
and at least we got a night stop allowance for sim and SEPs which we no longer get.
No you no longer get a nightstop allowance, instead you get two sector payment, a 20% increase on your nightstop allowance.
And we also had a crew contribution policy, no penalties I admit.
Now if they cock it up throughout the year a Captain gets £2,000 and an FO gets £1200. Not as good as previous.
And newly promoted captains had parity in pay to other captains not a 10% cut ( or whatever you wnt to call it)
Totally agree with you, 100% of the responsibility for 90% of the money, I don't think so.
Overall the package is the best on offer. I'm a BALPA member and I'm not going to go on strike whilst 49.7% of the workforce (non BALPA members) cross the picket line.
Pilots in easyJet who aren't BALPA members and wish to complain about the deal can take a hike.
Look what BA's PC did with membership in the 90% region. RDW knows he has us over a barrel and if you don't like it, tough.
If you want better terms and conditions join BALPA to present a united front or quit bleating cos it ain't going to get any better
Before BALPA, we did have 6on 3 off,
Under the original deal it was going, now it's staying. Some can opt out now and go to ad hoc crewing. True BALPA didn't gain it for us, but they've kept it for us.
we did have crew food( your suggestion it remains is only partially correct as we are paying for it ourselves now),
Under the old deal it was going, BALPA members voted conclusively for crew food to remain. It has done.
All your seeing now is the cost (£1100) that the employer bears. Prior to this when we had crew food the cost was still there to the company. This is a little bit of propaganda for the company to make you want to give up crew food. "Ooh, I could have an extra £1100 BEFORE tax in my pocket."
Under the old deal you would have got the £1100, big deal, after tax at 40% and NI of around 10% not much left to feed yourself with.
You were always paying for the crew food. Just this year they [the co] didn't want the hassle of providing it. As a sweetner to get you to give it up they've offered you money. Since crew food arrived they never offered you the money but it will always have been factored into the costs of an employee, just like uniform, 2 free tickets etc etc is in other airlines.
we had much better sector pay,
For Captains it hasn't changed much but for SFO it has gone down by £4. However with the increase in basic it offsets the drop in sector pay. The basic is pensionable so you're getting more in your pension too.
and at least we got a night stop allowance for sim and SEPs which we no longer get.
No you no longer get a nightstop allowance, instead you get two sector payment, a 20% increase on your nightstop allowance.
And we also had a crew contribution policy, no penalties I admit.
Now if they cock it up throughout the year a Captain gets £2,000 and an FO gets £1200. Not as good as previous.
And newly promoted captains had parity in pay to other captains not a 10% cut ( or whatever you wnt to call it)
Totally agree with you, 100% of the responsibility for 90% of the money, I don't think so.
Overall the package is the best on offer. I'm a BALPA member and I'm not going to go on strike whilst 49.7% of the workforce (non BALPA members) cross the picket line.
Pilots in easyJet who aren't BALPA members and wish to complain about the deal can take a hike.
Look what BA's PC did with membership in the 90% region. RDW knows he has us over a barrel and if you don't like it, tough.
If you want better terms and conditions join BALPA to present a united front or quit bleating cos it ain't going to get any better
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Well done easy!!
You made an old man chuckle today when I read the details of the new 'offer' - the first time have seen a pay deal which includes salaries which will be reduced before it comes into effect!! I laughed so much I bought a round!
There seems to be very little more on offer to you than was there before, and as to the management 'demonstrating' the cost of providing crew meals, why don't they demonstrate the cost of simulator checks, line checks, salary, allowances, or any of the other things which an airline pays out to/for its employees?
And the 90% for new left-seaters. Very, very, poor reasoning behind this. Total disrespect for the people you are putting in your left seats. Especially disappointing for all the blokes and girls who will be 'home grown' Captains. Devastating for those whose careers have been held up by the legendary 'fairness' of the command selection process. These worms will turn.
Six on three off seems to be accepted as the status quo. It seems, from the number of moans about fatigue here, that this scheme (really, seven on two off), plus the early flying and night flying and swaps between the two, add up to knackered pilots who just manage to keep body and soul together.
I used to worry if was in the right job. Now, the grass is looking as though the cat has been out, when I look over the fence into the orange grove.
You made an old man chuckle today when I read the details of the new 'offer' - the first time have seen a pay deal which includes salaries which will be reduced before it comes into effect!! I laughed so much I bought a round!
There seems to be very little more on offer to you than was there before, and as to the management 'demonstrating' the cost of providing crew meals, why don't they demonstrate the cost of simulator checks, line checks, salary, allowances, or any of the other things which an airline pays out to/for its employees?
And the 90% for new left-seaters. Very, very, poor reasoning behind this. Total disrespect for the people you are putting in your left seats. Especially disappointing for all the blokes and girls who will be 'home grown' Captains. Devastating for those whose careers have been held up by the legendary 'fairness' of the command selection process. These worms will turn.
Six on three off seems to be accepted as the status quo. It seems, from the number of moans about fatigue here, that this scheme (really, seven on two off), plus the early flying and night flying and swaps between the two, add up to knackered pilots who just manage to keep body and soul together.
I used to worry if was in the right job. Now, the grass is looking as though the cat has been out, when I look over the fence into the orange grove.
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Southern
It's amazing that when someone has a weak argument, not supported by facts, they resort to personal insults to fight their case. I see you are no different!
Try this,
1. Get hold of a copy of the company offer as it stood in October. Ask the PC or RW if you like.
2. Read it.
3. Then quote any of the terms in that document that are in any way better than what's on offer now.
See how much 'amunition' you have left for further debate if you can lower yourself to communicate with less intelligent beings!
It's amazing that when someone has a weak argument, not supported by facts, they resort to personal insults to fight their case. I see you are no different!
Try this,
1. Get hold of a copy of the company offer as it stood in October. Ask the PC or RW if you like.
2. Read it.
3. Then quote any of the terms in that document that are in any way better than what's on offer now.
See how much 'amunition' you have left for further debate if you can lower yourself to communicate with less intelligent beings!
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The assumption here is that some how BALPA forced the company into improving thier offer. How? They admit that they have no power. The membership numbers are irrelevant, the company knows that the pilots will not vote for a strike. Any representative body would have achieved this result, a more 'representative' one perhaps more.
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Gentlemen
If you do not like what is on offer and you deem it unacceptable, you will have the chance to record that fact by ballot on the 7th. The package is only an offer at the moment. It is up to us to decide if it is acceptable.It is no good bleating like a load of schoolgirls about things you cannot control. The offer will not be all things to all men, that is democracy.Vote on Friday , have your say then .The fat lady has not sung yet!!
If you do not like what is on offer and you deem it unacceptable, you will have the chance to record that fact by ballot on the 7th. The package is only an offer at the moment. It is up to us to decide if it is acceptable.It is no good bleating like a load of schoolgirls about things you cannot control. The offer will not be all things to all men, that is democracy.Vote on Friday , have your say then .The fat lady has not sung yet!!
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Carruthers my dearest
Don't be so sure on the vote outcome.
What pilots say in the crewroom is not the same as a secret ballot. The straw poll i have seen gives a NO vote. Pilots can be brave when putting a tiny cross on a piece of paper. They will make their own decision.
What pilots say in the crewroom is not the same as a secret ballot. The straw poll i have seen gives a NO vote. Pilots can be brave when putting a tiny cross on a piece of paper. They will make their own decision.
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Own Medicine?
Just had an excellent flight LGW - ZRH as pax and was impressed by the very competent and professional crew. I was just able to thank the pilots too before our bus left and to offer luck in the negotiations.
Made me think - does management realise what a good team there is on the line?
Later, browsing through the latest easyJet inflight magazine I came across this, in an article called Business Doctor: "Introduce 'compressed work weeks' where people work longer hours and finish on thursday..." and "...throw out the company rules, have decisions made by the workers, not management, let staff set their own working hours..." A little own medicine there with slight amendments, for the current discussions.
Made me think - does management realise what a good team there is on the line?
Later, browsing through the latest easyJet inflight magazine I came across this, in an article called Business Doctor: "Introduce 'compressed work weeks' where people work longer hours and finish on thursday..." and "...throw out the company rules, have decisions made by the workers, not management, let staff set their own working hours..." A little own medicine there with slight amendments, for the current discussions.
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Moonraker, a vote on this offer is one thing, a vote for industrial action another. No one in thier right mind is ever going to vote for industrial action, most BALPA members are not militant and are there for the insurance (misguidedly). The union know that they cannot achieve more and are having to put a brave face on it. The proposals from the company will almost cerainly have been more draconian than they intended simply to give the union a get out by claiming to have forestalled them, standard industrial practice.
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Carruthers,
You would be right if there was a significant difference between the two offers. there isn't. BALPA, as usual, claim credit for smoke and mirrors whilst achieving precisely nothing.
If this is how 'a leading airline' acts we should all quit and drive buses. At least we would be home at nights.
You would be right if there was a significant difference between the two offers. there isn't. BALPA, as usual, claim credit for smoke and mirrors whilst achieving precisely nothing.
If this is how 'a leading airline' acts we should all quit and drive buses. At least we would be home at nights.