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EK 231 20 December DXB IAD near crash?

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EK 231 20 December DXB IAD near crash?

Old 31st Dec 2021, 15:17
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I was at a training meeting @EK some years ago. I was a lowly serf within the A380 training department but occasionally felt compelled to speak up. The topic was a presentation on how to fly the Carnarsie approach into JFK 13L/ R. The recommended way to do this by the experts involved swapping flight plans below 1,000feet. I kid you not. My contribution was to say that possibly looking out of the window would be more appropriate and to fly the aircraft at that crucial phase of flight. In my old fogey world (sorry, folks) I flew into JFK many times in the 747-200, not a very automated aircraft and when we saw whichever runway we were heading for, out came the autopilot and we pointed the Jet in the appropriate direction. I was of course ignored and lo and behold some years later an A380 was @300 feet several miles from the runway and only a vigilant controller intervened prior to catastrophe. I am certainly not the fount of all wisdom and would never proclaim that I know better than a lot of clever people however common sense leaves the building particularly @ EK where everyone is running scared of the bullying @rseholes that purport to run the place. I am really glad that the Swiss cheese did not come together here but when are they going to learn?
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Old 31st Dec 2021, 15:19
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If the pilots fear strict company rules enforced by flight data monitoring so much that they don't dare to look outside and just take off something is wrong both with those rules and with flight data monitoring. Who is setting those company rules and who certifies them? This is not how aircraft are supposed to be safely operated.
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Old 31st Dec 2021, 15:33
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After 12 years at EK the company culture never changed from day 1
And it will never change
The ME 3 are now, in my opinion, last resort jobs and not career options.
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Old 31st Dec 2021, 18:40
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Originally Posted by mmmbop View Post
The comments here about looking outside the window vs being on instruments I suspect is from non jet flying pilots. I recall a quick survey being done on where people look for rotation and it was 50:50 inside vs outside. HOWEVER, those who do look outside for the initial rotation quickly look back inside to the PFD to see where their initial rotation has come to and adjust according to the degree graduations, as opposed to the FD. Almost all said this is as the gear is unsticking or has just become airborne. So really, most people are rotating on instruments because they quickly look inside to see here they are - particularly important on the 777 with regard to tail scrapes.
Sounds about right. I would say it starts about 100% outside and ending up 100% on the inside with a transition from one to the other as the pitch attitude increases(once partway through the rotation, the runway is out of view). It is still important to look outside somewhat even in very low vis to ensure one is remaining on the centerline. In such a situation I do rapid inside/outside/inside for as long as the centerline can be seen to ensure that one doesn't drift. This is more critical in a crosswind or especially after a V1 cut in the sim with its slower rotation(have seen pilots drift far off centerline with wheels still on ground).
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Old 31st Dec 2021, 19:15
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Given that the 777 was likely accelerating at 5-6kts/sec, there must have been quite a long period in aviation terms after Vr (if it was called) where not much was happening. I do wonder what was going through peoples’ minds as the end of the runway got closer and closer and they were still on the ground getting faster and faster? Nobody ever gets sacked for following the flight director? I hope my Will is in order...?
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Old 31st Dec 2021, 21:40
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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Correct

Originally Posted by olster View Post
I was at a training meeting @EK some years ago. I was a lowly serf within the A380 training department but occasionally felt compelled to speak up. The topic was a presentation on how to fly the Carnarsie approach into JFK 13L/ R. The recommended way to do this by the experts involved swapping flight plans below 1,000feet. I kid you not. My contribution was to say that possibly looking out of the window would be more appropriate and to fly the aircraft at that crucial phase of flight. In my old fogey world (sorry, folks) I flew into JFK many times in the 747-200, not a very automated aircraft and when we saw whichever runway we were heading for, out came the autopilot and we pointed the Jet in the appropriate direction. I was of course ignored and lo and behold some years later an A380 was @300 feet several miles from the runway and only a vigilant controller intervened prior to catastrophe. I am certainly not the fount of all wisdom and would never proclaim that I know better than a lot of clever people however common sense leaves the building particularly @ EK where everyone is running scared of the bullying @rseholes that purport to run the place. I am really glad that the Swiss cheese did not come together here but when are they going to learn?
Quite right, the Canarsie approach is a visual, cannot be performed on instruments from well before the final turn. This airline’s training department were either daft, or/and risk oriented.
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Old 31st Dec 2021, 22:45
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Originally Posted by MissChief View Post
Quite right, the Canarsie approach is a visual, cannot be performed on instruments from well before the final turn. This airline’s training department were either daft, or/and risk oriented.
its a VOR until DHYML, then it’s visual
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Old 31st Dec 2021, 22:58
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Which is why they brought in the RNP AR App to help all the long haul drivers who couldn’t cope with a visual segment. Our Company recommends keeping the AP engaged to 300ft which gives you very little time to sort out the inevitable crosswind correction.
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Old 1st Jan 2022, 05:09
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Rotate?

Here is a new theory, maybe disaster was averted because the aircraft became airborne by itself ( flaps and 230+ knots of speed will create a nose up attitude)

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Old 1st Jan 2022, 05:56
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SLF - With all the talk about FD bars whatever happened to the calls "V1" and "Rotate"?
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Old 1st Jan 2022, 06:18
  #151 (permalink)  

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We're looking at a broken glass, no need ask how much milk it does not hold.

​​​​​​What hit it, was the material worn beyond design limit, defective, or even inadequate to begin with ...

A simple sketch of the SHELL model will reveal the blanks that need filliing. Once the facts are collected.
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Old 1st Jan 2022, 07:07
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post
We're looking at a broken glass, no need ask how much milk it does not hold.

​​​​​​What hit it, was the material worn beyond design limit, defective, or even inadequate to begin with ...

A simple sketch of the SHELL model will reveal the blanks that need filliing. Once the facts are collected.
Perhaps the other thread about the alleged ice strike?
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Old 1st Jan 2022, 08:58
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Originally Posted by Australopithecus View Post
Perhaps the other thread about the alleged ice strike?
Ironic, right?

No, this one. Broken glass (cup) is the botched manoeuvre. The spilled milk is the 'where is action at the Vr call': obviously not in the correct place.

The glass material which shattered is the actual crew performance. Insufficient, distracted, fatigued, improperly trained, or even just not of the right calibre.

Same as others above, I wouldn't call it IFR/handling skill, it is a basic manoeuvre and a survival reaction. Myself, I hope for some eerie technical issue and the crew Human Factor to actually have saved the day i.s.o. created the mess.

But I was wrong with AF330 (suspected meteorite strike more likely than what actually happened) and never will understand the T7 Won't-Around or PIA deathwish.

​​​​​​

Last edited by FlightDetent; 1st Jan 2022 at 09:54.
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Old 1st Jan 2022, 09:53
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I fly a bizjet with old avionics, this could not have happened on my plane.
before you line up on the runway, you would have already pushed the TO/GA button and you have a 10 degrees nose up flight director, generaly associated with LNAV or Heading mode. No autothrottle.
When you hear "rotate", the procedure is to rotate to a 17 to 20 degrees nose up attitude and to target a speed of 160knt, then ask for FLC.
when the PNF select FLC, the FD will come up to match your attitude.

So my question is :
On a 777, when you line up with your PFD ready for the departure, does the FD gives you a pitch up of 10 degrees or does it stay at 2 or 3 degrees and goes up automaticly at the selected Vrotate ?
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Old 1st Jan 2022, 10:01
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Originally Posted by Akrep View Post
Here is a new theory, maybe disaster was averted because the aircraft became airborne by itself ( flaps and 230+ knots of speed will create a nose up attitude)
You’d have thought so but a quick look in the manuals (TOW likely >> 300T for a sector of that length) shows you need 6-7degs NU to fly level with F15 (likely TO setting) at 190-200kts at that weight. Even with V-squared in the equation, you’d have to be going *really* fast to generate enough lift to get airborne with an AoA of zero; a partial rotation might do it, though...

On a 777, when you line up with your PFD ready for the departure, does the FD gives you a pitch up of 10 degrees or does it stay at 2 or 3 degrees and goes up automaticly at the selected Vrotate ?
As mentioned earlier in the thread, it sits at ~8degs then adjusts itself later on in the rotation to command V2+15 to V2+25 AEO. You don’t use it for the initial rotation.
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Old 1st Jan 2022, 10:10
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Re the discussion about looking inside or out; I am still puzzled by slavish following the FD if it is showing something obviously wrong. You know you are rotating to climb away, you know the attitude you usually aim for, so surely you pitch to that and if the FD shows something else, then it is wrong and you ignore it, while the PNF sorts out the anomoly. No 1 job fly the aeroplane, Attitude + Power = performance as we used to teach eons ago.
PS: The aeroplane taking the decision is very likely, simply physics, beyond a certain speed you can't keep it on the ground
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Old 1st Jan 2022, 10:31
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Originally Posted by KAISERSOZE View Post
So my question is :
On a 777, when you line up with your PFD ready for the departure, does the FD gives you a pitch up of 10 degrees or does it stay at 2 or 3 degrees and goes up automaticly at the selected Vrotate ?
As I recall it correctly if you are in the correct modes on the ground the pitch bar sits well up, 8(?) degrees up, you certainly would not expect to see it down at 2 or 3 degrees.

It only starts telling you anything meaningful once you have actually lifted off.



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Old 1st Jan 2022, 10:49
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Originally Posted by FullWings View Post
You’d have thought so but a quick look in the manuals (TOW likely >> 300T for a sector of that length) shows you need 6-7degs NU to fly level with F15 (likely TO setting) at 190-200kts at that weight. Even with V-squared in the equation, you’d have to be going *really* fast to generate enough lift to get airborne with an AoA of zero; a partial rotation might do it, though...
It just might have self rotated, remember the stabilizer trim is set to provide for V2+ with an engine out on most aircraft so there may have been some downward force on it. I've seen A330s start to self rotate when very light (I know that's different on several scores).
Anyway, enough to place EK on my DNF list until they sort out their safety culture.
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Old 1st Jan 2022, 11:20
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
SLF - With all the talk about FD bars whatever happened to the calls "V1" and "Rotate"?
Spot on. IMHO, that's the million $ question.
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Old 1st Jan 2022, 11:32
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Originally Posted by Consol View Post
It just might have self rotated, remember the stabilizer trim is set to provide for V2+ with an engine out on most aircraft so there may have been some downward force on it. I've seen A330s start to self rotate when very light (I know that's different on several scores).
Anyway, enough to place EK on my DNF list until they sort out their safety culture.
That’s true. But it also infers that the FD wasn’t followed at that point and/or effectively no-one was on the controls. Which is a possible scenario. Oh dear...

I’ll try a hands-off TO in DXB in the sim next time I’m in for a laugh.
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