Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 1st Jun 2020, 18:46
  #981 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by George Glass
When I first started with an Airline on the B737 it was a matter of pride to be able to keep the speed on till late as possible , flap on schedule and thrust up and stable at 500’.
Originally Posted by Contact Approach
I think that pride you speak of may have been this crews end.
That 'Warp 9 to the marker and configure on the way down' stuff went away a couple of decades ago at most places in the U.S. The subsequent drop in landing accident numbers shows the absolute idiocy of the 'watch this' fools who did it and in some cases taught it.

Last edited by Airbubba; 1st Jun 2020 at 23:51.
Airbubba is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2020, 20:10
  #982 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: 900m
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by 4runner
I’m not sure you are being 100%. Ive never heard of any kind of FC that requires an engine to idle at liftoff. Some turbo props have auto feather and the crj 200 has auto increase in thrust, but these aren’t checked on a test flight, right after “liftoff”.
Try to get hold of the MD-80 maintenance test flight protocol 4R.
Twitter is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2020, 20:19
  #983 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Centre of Universe
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Connie Wings
Regarding fatigue risk assessment, does anybody knows about this crew duty on that day, as well as previous ones. I'm talking not only about days before that but also the monthly roster, because due to shortened flights, being out of the flight deck for a long period can be an issue sometimes.
Connie
PIA only started up again a few days before so f,atigue won't come into it. There is a view that fasting may of but that's for another time
GKOC41 is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2020, 21:37
  #984 (permalink)  
Paxing All Over The World
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hertfordshire, UK.
Age: 67
Posts: 10,222
Received 75 Likes on 60 Posts
Originally Posted by donotdespisethesnake
I think by definition, if hypoxia affected decision making, his colleague would have noticed, taken control and declared a medical emergency. OTOH, if it was not enough to affect decision making then it was not a factor.

However, I am sure the investigators will give due consideration to the possibility it was a factor, and make appropriate recommendations.
That would rely on blood samples having been taken at the post mortem of the two crew. We may never find out if PMs were done, other than routine blood tests for banned substances, The cause of death being done to 'blunt trauma'.

It is widely reported that Doctors and Paramedics have found Covid-19 patients who were lucid and talking and using their mobile phones - whlist having a blood saturation below 70. Usually, at that level, a person is either in heart/brain failure or about to be so within seconds. Covid-19 makes the blood 'sticky' it is report and this typically shows up first in the lungs but also damages other organs.

We come back to the concern about what the FO would do, if he thought the Cpt was not performing to the best of his ability?
PAXboy is online now  
Old 1st Jun 2020, 22:55
  #985 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Age: 56
Posts: 981
Received 15 Likes on 8 Posts
Respectfully, can we get away from the covid/blood saturation discussion? The chance that bot of the pilots were incapacitated at the same time due to a virus seems unlikely.
hans brinker is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2020, 23:19
  #986 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Melbourne
Age: 68
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Airbubba
That 'Warp 9 to the marker and configure on the way down' stuff went away a couple of decades ago at most places in the U.S. The subsequent drop in landing accident numbers show the absolute idiocy of the 'watch this' fools who did it and in some cases taught it.
Maybe , but you should still be able to demonstrate it , at least in the sim.
Now I see guys getting into trouble by slowing to Flap Up manoeuvre speed ,which is pretty close to best L/D , then using speed brake. Speed brake does nothing on a B737 at 220 knots. Drift higher and higher on profile , don’t want to take gear early..... Clueless as what to do next.
Just cos you’re slow doesn’t mean you safe or know what you’re doing. Fully configured 10 miles out at approach speed isn’t smart. Its a pain in the butt.

Last edited by George Glass; 2nd Jun 2020 at 03:25.
George Glass is offline  
Old 1st Jun 2020, 23:44
  #987 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: 500 miles from Chaikhosi, Yogistan
Posts: 4,333
Received 160 Likes on 77 Posts
Originally Posted by Airbubba
That 'Warp 9 to the marker and configure on the way down' stuff went away a couple of decades ago at most places in the U.S. The subsequent drop in landing accident numbers show the absolute idiocy of the 'watch this' fools who did it and in some cases taught it.
Yes, high speed all the way in to show off should be a thing of the past.

But high speed until a safe distance out is a tool and should be able to be used as and when it's appropriate. The 'bus makes it even safer by even giving you the decel point on the screen.
compressor stall is online now  
Old 2nd Jun 2020, 01:25
  #988 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The Smaller Antipode
Age: 89
Posts: 31
Received 37 Likes on 19 Posts
For instance when buying fuel in US Gallons and then converting to Litres/KG and Pounds it is all too easy to get the digit in the wrong place.
Hence the Gimli Glider. Air Canada 767 en route to the West ran out of fuel and landed dead stick on the disused Gimli runway. ( near Winnipeg )

If he makes any calculation using a calculator..........
Have mentioned before - carry a key ring sized navigation computer in my wallet, using it at the supermarket one day, the "work experience" teenager asked me what it was? A circular slide rule, I replied. "What's a Slide Rule" ? was his reply. One could weep.
ExSp33db1rd is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2020, 02:34
  #989 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Everett, WA
Age: 69
Posts: 4,554
Received 323 Likes on 157 Posts
Originally Posted by ExSp33db1rd
Hence the Gimli Glider. Air Canada 767 en route to the West ran out of fuel and landed dead stick on the disused Gimli runway. ( near Winnipeg )

Have mentioned before - carry a key ring sized navigation computer in my wallet, using it at the supermarket one day, the "work experience" teenager asked me what it was? A circular slide rule, I replied. "What's a Slide Rule" ? was his reply. One could weep.
Not quite apples to apples - on the Gimli Glider they told the crew they had xxxxx kilos of fuel, when in fact they had that many pounds of fuel.

My first semester of college, pocket calculators were just coming online (1973) and outlandishly expensive. Slide rules were the norm - I remember glancing over during a mid-term at another student who was merrily punching numbers into a TI calculator while I was struggling with my slide rule. After hearing my tails of woe, my parents gave my an HP45 calculator for Christmas ($395 - ~$2,000 in today's money - to put that into perspective the previous summer I'd worked in a car dealer making $1.50/hr, and a semester's tuition was a bit over $300!). Most expensive Christmas gift I ever got by far.
Went back to college in January with my fancy new calculator only to have the professors ban using calculators in exams because not all the students could afford one and it was unfair and we all had to use slide rules .
I still have a couple slide rules around here somewhere - although I'm not sure I could still use one (I was never very proficient at it).
tdracer is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2020, 03:31
  #990 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Melbourne
Age: 68
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by tdracer
Not quite apples to apples - on the Gimli Glider they told the crew they had xxxxx kilos of fuel, when in fact they had that many pounds of fuel.

My first semester of college, pocket calculators were just coming online (1973) and outlandishly expensive. Slide rules were the norm - I remember glancing over during a mid-term at another student who was merrily punching numbers into a TI calculator while I was struggling with my slide rule. After hearing my tails of woe, my parents gave my an HP45 calculator for Christmas ($395 - ~$2,000 in today's money - to put that into perspective the previous summer I'd worked in a car dealer making $1.50/hr, and a semester's tuition was a bit over $300!). Most expensive Christmas gift I ever got by far.
Went back to college in January with my fancy new calculator only to have the professors ban using calculators in exams because not all the students could afford one and it was unfair and we all had to use slide rules .
I still have a couple slide rules around here somewhere - although I'm not sure I could still use one (I was never very proficient at it).
One of the great advantages of a slide rule is that you’ve got to know the order of magnitude of the answer before you start.
Makes gross errors much less likely.
George Glass is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2020, 03:59
  #991 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: hector's house
Posts: 175
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by George Glass
Speed brake does nothing on a B737 at 220 knots.
if you are high on profile at 220kts the speed brake will help you control the increase in airspeed required as you increase vertical speed to regain the profile.
hec7or is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2020, 04:56
  #992 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 2,541
Received 5 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by compressor stall
Yes, high speed all the way in to show off should be a thing of the past.

But high speed until a safe distance out is a tool and should be able to be used as and when it's appropriate. The 'bus makes it even safer by even giving you the decel point on the screen.
Agreed on the utility of 250kt to the marker as a teaching tool. We'd do it every now again in a regional jet, as a demonstration of what the plane could do, and to stay proficient through the entire envelope.

On the decel point on the A320, I usually find it way too conservative. If I slowed as early as the FMS wanted to slow, I'd be causing traffic jams.
Check Airman is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2020, 06:24
  #993 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Tring, UK
Posts: 1,895
Received 42 Likes on 23 Posts
It’s thread drift but I suppose in some way pertinent to the subject as there isn’t any new information at the moment.

I’ve found, as a general observation, that to lose energy from the airframe you need to either fly it as fast as you can (highest parasitic drag plus brakes are most effective) or as slow as you can (highest lift-induced drag). Somewhere “in the middle” is where the aircraft is at its most efficient.

Depending on the distance to run, it’s possible to use an amalgam of both techniques: dive off the height at the top end of the speed range while you’re well away from the ground then slow down to fully configured, which gives the best gradient without excessive rates of descent and allows time for monitoring the progress of the approach. On the types I’ve flown, 700-1,000’ per mile is achievable without busting SOPs, once in the landing configuration and in normal conditions.
FullWings is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2020, 06:33
  #994 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Similar go-around accident. MD 82. Phuket Thailand September 2007. Copilot PF. Botched go-around 50 feet in heavy rain. The autothrottle was left engaged during manually flown approach. A/T closes the throttles in the middle of the GA. Aircraft hits an embankment and bursts into flames.
.https://reports.aviation-safety.net/...D82_HS_OMG.pdf
sheppey is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2020, 06:43
  #995 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,491
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by Check Airman
Agreed on the utility of 250kt to the marker as a teaching tool. We'd do it every now again in a regional jet, as a demonstration of what the plane could do, and to stay proficient through the entire .
Next time you have a spare 15 minutes in the simulator try this scenario.
Calm, CAVOK, 80nm NE STN FL370. SCCM just announced uncontained cabin fire.
Straight in STN runway 22......GO....
parkfell is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2020, 07:11
  #996 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Melbourne
Age: 68
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by parkfell
Next time you have a spare 15 minutes in the simulator try this scenario.
Calm, CAVOK, 80nm NE STN FL370. SCCM just announced uncontained cabin fire.
Straight in STN runway 22......GO....
Exactly.

Not that hard if you know how.......
George Glass is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2020, 08:02
  #997 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: East of Westralia
Posts: 701
Received 130 Likes on 41 Posts
Originally Posted by George Glass
Exactly.

Not that hard if you know how.......
I would hope ANY pilot would handle that without breaking a sweat!
ScepticalOptomist is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2020, 08:09
  #998 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Sudbury, Suffolk
Posts: 270
Received 7 Likes on 4 Posts
Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist
I would hope ANY pilot would handle that without breaking a sweat!
Degree of sweat might depend on proximity and intensity of fire no?
Maninthebar is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2020, 08:38
  #999 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,491
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by Maninthebar
Degree of sweat might depend on proximity and intensity of fire no?
Very true, as the extremely unfortunate SR 111 (MD 11) found out in September 1998 at Peggy’s cove.
Priority, get your @rse on the ground ASAP?

Another useful exercise (calm CAVOK) to concentrate the mind is a double engine failure (flock of geese) 3500 ft, say 3.5nm from the runway at the start of the downwind leg at minimum clean speed. APU already started to concentrate on flying ‘the pattern ~ constant sight angle’. Dead stick it, flap & gear as required. Flare 100’. Cancel any side slip by 500’. CRM generated in abundance normally.
parkfell is offline  
Old 2nd Jun 2020, 09:16
  #1000 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: 🇬🇧🇪🇸
Posts: 2,106
Received 31 Likes on 5 Posts
Night take off from LGW, CAVOK in a BAe146. I called for Gear Up, Master Warning “Avionics Smoke”. Call from Cabin Manager “Forward Galley Fire, ceiling melting”. MAYDAY to ATC. Turned downwind for a visual return at 1,500’ while F/O ran the checklists. Landed in just under 5 minutes. Fire extinguished by Cabin Crew so no EVAC. Source, forward oven fire due grease build up within. Avionics Smoke warning spurious, caused by galley air being drawn down into the avionics bay (as designed). Ovens no longer operated during critical stages of flight in any UK AOC as far as I know.
Nightstop is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.