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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 3rd Jun 2020, 17:52
  #1041 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by siropalomar
I caní t post the YouTube link, butís easy to find: just search Captain Mayday, PK 8303. Itís a comprehensive summary of what we know so far, waiting for CVR and FDR readouts, which wonít take long. Quite recommendable !
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 19:09
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Originally Posted by asdf1234
See the I-NEOT AAIB report elsewhere on this site.

Were the crew fasting? Did "cultural practices" come into play? Or is it true that any crew, from any airline, from any part of the world, can get it badly wrong given the right combination of unfortunate circumstances?

[I can't manage the technical task of uploading the AAIB report but hopefully someone can...]
About 25 years ago, as I was a C130 instructor in the french air force, I spent some time in Africa for giving two copilots instruction in order for them to be upgraded as captains.

It was during ramadan.

One of the trainees was a muslim and as so he was following ramadan rules.

We used to perform our training flights in the afternoon, after the lone aircraft carried out its morning duties, benefiting of lower morning temperatures for heavy lift operational transports.

The ramadan-following guy was already under hipoglycemic effect when we started flying and was unable of even the most basic duties. I ended telling him that he had to choose between ramadan and flying, because both were incompatible. He finally chose to fly, thus drank and ate normally, and his flight status greatly improved.

I'm still wondering whether these two unfortunate guys at the controls of PIA 8303 were fit to fly (which would be terrible considering the way they managed that fateful flight) or under ramadan-induced health reduction. And I'm still surprised we don't have any data about their personal conditions the 12-24 hours before their fateful end, nor nobody seems to wonder about...

Last edited by homebuilt; 3rd Jun 2020 at 19:23.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 22:30
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Ramadan fasting could have been an important factor, but it will be difficult to measure , as lack of transparency could prevail. BEA will have to settle with CVR and FDR, iīm afraid , as digging deep into "fasting culture" in muslim countries companies could become impossible...
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 04:24
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Originally Posted by Euclideanplane
Captain has a star on his shoulder. Master Caution right there.

I remember flying as a junior F/O with a very senior executive Pilot. His first words in the pre-flight briefing were; “ I don’t fly much , so don’t let me f@ck up.” Total respect from then on.
But then that is in Australia................
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 06:21
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Originally Posted by homebuilt
About 25 years ago, as I was a C130 instructor in the french air force, I spent some time in Africa for giving two copilots instruction in order for them to be upgraded as captains.

It was during ramadan.

One of the trainees was a muslim and as so he was following ramadan rules.

We used to perform our training flights in the afternoon, after the lone aircraft carried out its morning duties, benefiting of lower morning temperatures for heavy lift operational transports.

The ramadan-following guy was already under hipoglycemic effect when we started flying and was unable of even the most basic duties. I ended telling him that he had to choose between ramadan and flying, because both were incompatible. He finally chose to fly, thus drank and ate normally, and his flight status greatly improved.

I'm still wondering whether these two unfortunate guys at the controls of PIA 8303 were fit to fly (which would be terrible considering the way they managed that fateful flight) or under ramadan-induced health reduction. And I'm still surprised we don't have any data about their personal conditions the 12-24 hours before their fateful end, nor nobody seems to wonder about...
You are missing my point. If a European crew flying for a European airline can get an approach in CAVOK conditions so disastrously wrong, the focus should not be on what the PIA crew had or hadn't eaten that day, but on what caused them to rush their approach?
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 06:34
  #1046 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by asdf1234
You are missing my point. If a European crew flying for a European airline can get an approach in CAVOK conditions so disastrously wrong, the focus should not be on what the PIA crew had or hadn't eaten that day, but on what caused them to rush their approach?
It is clear from an audio clip of another PIA pilot plus some media reports what caused them to rush the approach. He also made it clear that it is not possible that he wasn't fasting. He termed the approach as hot and high and according to him it is not uncommon. So there were no special reasons but just a lax operating culture. The point is when you undertake something that's way outside safe operating practice under fatigue and hypoglycemic effect then it can end in a disaster like this.

Last edited by vilas; 4th Jun 2020 at 06:55.
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 07:59
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Originally Posted by asdf1234
You are missing my point. If a European crew flying for a European airline can get an approach in CAVOK conditions so disastrously wrong, the focus should not be on what the PIA crew had or hadn't eaten that day, but on what caused them to rush their approach?
Yep, I may have missed your point, because Iíve no example in my mind of any other approach so badly managed, nor in Europe, nor anywhere else in the world. And whichever all errors / violations that can have been previously done on any flight, Iím still sticking to the idea that good body / brain conditions can save the day.
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 08:06
  #1048 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fawad
It appears (from family interviews) that pilots were fasting.

There are also claims from multiple media sources that the Captain had been rejected previously by the airline Psychiatrist as "not fit for duty". The captain went outside of the country and brought a different psychiatrist result instead.
Please could you find sources about that and give us the links here ?
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 08:16
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Originally Posted by homebuilt
Yep, I may have missed your point, because Iíve no example in my mind of any other approach so badly managed, nor in Europe, nor anywhere else in the world. And whichever all errors / violations that can have been previously done on any flight, Iím still sticking to the idea that good body / brain conditions can save the day.
Read this: https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib...737-86n-i-neot
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 08:48
  #1050 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by asdf1234
I have read it, and commented, as it appears as a separate thread.

The obvious difference is that this B737 Captain, albeit late in the day, took control and flew the G/A and landed from the second approach.

The other obvious difference is that the Bristol Aerodrome Controller instructed a G/A (iaw MATS part one protocols).

This list of ‘differences’ is not exhaustive........as others may well point out.

Not entirely convinced that you are comparing ‘apples &/with apples’....?
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 09:57
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The 737 also didn't go-around from the surface of the runway with the L/G still in the up position.
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 13:02
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Originally Posted by asdf1234
Parkfell already replied exactly like I wanted to do, so for me nothing to add..
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 14:00
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Originally Posted by homebuilt
Please could you find sources about that and give us the links here ?
I could go through various videos I watched to dig it out but it is in Urdu. Not sure it will be worth the trouble.
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 14:57
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Originally Posted by homebuilt
OK thanks anyway. Too bad..
there is a you tube clip of a journalist who is ranting about the systematic problems within the Pakistan aviation industry with the typical issues that plague the sub continent (nepotism, pull & contacts & fake stuff). Laced into this is the comment on him failing his evalauation. It is an Urdu English mix & more of a rant of a Covid home bound person than someone with an inside view.
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 17:22
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Originally Posted by Wannabe Flyer
there is a you tube clip of a journalist who is ranting about the systematic problems within the Pakistan aviation industry with the typical issues that plague the sub continent (nepotism, pull & contacts & fake stuff). Laced into this is the comment on him failing his evalauation. It is an Urdu English mix & more of a rant of a Covid home bound person than someone with an inside view.
Are you serious?

Mubashar Luqman has been associated with the largest media houses in Pakistan as an investigative journalist and TV anchorperson. He's been with Business Plus, Express News, Dunya TV, ARY Digital, Samaa, etc. He has his own production and advertising company, owns two small private aircraft, and is a licensed pilot. He rose to fame because of his investigative journalism, inside news due to his connections, breaking political/corruption scandals, etc.

I am no fan of his (due to his biased political views and aggressive attitude) but to call it the "rant of a Covid home bound person" would be ridiculous. Besides, he is not the only source of this news.
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 18:07
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This whole thread is now so very far off topic that it should be closed, awaiting considered verdicts from the authorities.

Or is there nothing else to do here ?
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 19:42
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Originally Posted by homebuilt
Yep, I may have missed your point, because Iíve no example in my mind of any other approach so badly managed, nor in Europe, nor anywhere else in the world.
I'd say Air India Express 812 at Mangalore in 2010 is a similar South Asia Darwin Award contender.

On 22 May 2010, a Boeing 737-800 passenger jet operating Air India Express Flight 812 from Dubai to Mangalore, India, crashed on landing at Mangalore. The captain had continued an unstabilized approach, despite three calls from the First Officer to "go around", resulting in the aircraft overshooting the runway, falling down a hillside and bursting into flames. Of the 160 passengers and six crew members on board, 158 were killed (all crew members and 152 passengers) and only eight passengers survived.

...For 110 minutes the CVR had picked up no conversation from the pilots, with the report adding that the sound of nasal snoring and deep breathing could be heard during this recording. The FDR analysis indicated that the flight started its final descent at an altitude of 4,400 feet (1,300 m), instead of the normal 2,000 feet (610 m). The aircraft also touched down at the 4,638-foot (1,414 m) mark on the runway instead of the 1,000-foot (300 m) mark, whereupon the pilot then tried to take off with just 800 feet (240 m) of the runway remaining, which resulted in the crash. Both pilots had been aware of the wrong flight path since they are both heard saying "Flight is taking wrong path and wrong side", while the aircraft's instruments had given repeated warnings of this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_In...ess_Flight_812

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Old 4th Jun 2020, 21:06
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Guys any real update on the crash?,they said the cvr is going to be decoded on june 2nd,im sure the airbus now really know what happend?When will we get to know?
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 19:32
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BEA: PK8303 CVR and FDR Data Download Complete

From the BEA:



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Old 5th Jun 2020, 21:57
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The French are true diplomats. This is why many countries trust them to handle the information properly when they download these recorders. Like ET.
Being the manufacturing nation this time legally includes the French anyway in this accident investigation.
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