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Frohnsdorff Runs Amok (merged)

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Frohnsdorff Runs Amok (merged)

Old 11th Jul 2002, 10:31
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What happened to John Frohnsdorf running amok?

Serious case of thread creep here !!

( and Airrage with two r's is still as verbose as ever )

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Keep the blue side up !



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Old 11th Jul 2002, 16:50
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Airrage,
Did not intend to get at you in the way you thought, not easy this electronic comms !Merely thought that as you do have opinions and obviuosly deeply felt ones, why not use your enthusiasm effectively. It is not a crime to want to change things, thats why people do stand for reps etc. Seems like you would be a person who would get people thinking and by not blindly accepting the status quo be good for the soul !
A comment regarding the long term view was made and that is certainly the preferred way to go. For certain we are not like a tin of baked beans and are not easily and quickly moved, but once moved not easily recovered either, so any management that lets a flow commence in the wrong direction would find it hard to reverse.
TTFN
Martin A

Bit of thread creep for sure, let us see what comes out of New Rd, I don't think MG is any keener to have the Gen Sec title than any other person who has a full time job to do ! Let us hope the process is as painless and quick as possible.
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Old 12th Jul 2002, 14:19
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M Mouse,

Nice speech. One word. Got your point across. Made me totally understand how you feel on this subject. Captain of your debating team?


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Old 12th Jul 2002, 17:18
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Land ASAP

I was taught that if I wished to make a point be concise and stick to that point.

Martin A and Airrage's postings are so verbose that I end up skipping them after the first few lines. Defeats the object rather, especially as some valid argument is lost amongst the verbiage.

So as I said, yawn.
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Old 13th Jul 2002, 21:11
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The latest from the BALPA website:


>>12th July 2002
At the July NEC meeting, John Frohnsdorff, the newly elected General Secretary, formally declined to take up the post.

The NEC, which includes John, of course, have unanimously agreed that the Chairman, Mervyn Granshaw, will operate as Acting General Secretary in accordance with the precedent set in 1992. He will undertake technical, constitutional and legal aspects of the General Secretary's role whilst the Senior Management Team will carry out the day to day activities.

A General Secretary Procurement and Process Sub-Committee (GSP&P) has been established by the NEC. This will be an administrative, not an executive, Committee. Its first two objectives are to circulate a job description to the NEC for comment and subsequently to Company Council Chairmen for consultation.

The (GSP&P) will also seek legal advice concerning an appropriate contract to be offered to the permanent replacement. A process will then be agreed for the procurement of a General Secretary. The Sub-Committee will appoint a spokesman who will aim to report to the NEC at least weekly so NEC members are kept abreast of developments.

It has also been agreed that all Company Council Chairmen (or their delegates) be invited to attend the next NEC in order that they can continue to contribute to the process and air their views.

Mervyn Granshaw expressed his thanks to the NEC for the discussion, which he said had been held in an atmosphere of conciliation, partnership and unanimity.

John Frohnsdorff added 'We hope that by adopting this procedure we will select a candidate who will become the nominated candidate of the NEC and will receive the support of the Company Councils, making a further election unnecessary.'<<

They seem set on avoiding another election; democracy is obviously too potent for them!
 
Old 14th Jul 2002, 10:53
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Cool

Son of Piltdown, there's no them, only us members.

All members have a copy of the BALPA Rules. Rule 28 says that the NEC may nominate a candidate. Any two or more CC's who represent over 500 pilots can also nominate a candidate - as happened last time.
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Old 16th Jul 2002, 17:17
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Justa little bit of interest, apparently we have an election of the GS (head of BALPA civil service) by the whole membership because Maggie T thought that the miners might be more likely to elect a non-militant GS than Arthur S than would the NUM equivalent of the NEC. Seems kind of ironic given the average voting tendency at national political level of pilots that we have voted for the aquisition of a more militant gen Sec !!!
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Old 18th Jul 2002, 16:26
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Martin A is dead right about the irony of legislation intended to unseat Arthur Scargill leading to the election of more militant General Secretaries.

However, most contributors to this thread seem to have missed an important point - the relevant law (1984 Trade Union Act) requiring GSs to be elected by the membership is still in force, and there are few exemptions. In other words, if JF is not BALPA's new General Secretary then there MUST be another election, whether or not the CCs are agreed on one appointee.

If a GS is appointed without election it will take only one paid-up member to complain to the Government's trade union regulator (called the Certification Officer) to begin a process of enforcement which will end up with BALPA being instructed to run an election, or face punitive fines.

The law also applies to union Presidents (in your case the Chairman) who must also be elected by the membership in a postal ballot, unless their term of office is less than 13 months, or they surrender their right to vote at meetings.

Speaking as a trade unionist (not BALPA) who has recent experience of being dragged through the courts on these electoral issues, I'm intrigued as to who might apply for the GS position (assuming it's not an internal candidate).

Given that the last GS got dumped unceremoniously, and the new one looks likely to be installed in contradiction of the prevailing law, open to challenge at any moment, the list of TU experienced applicants could be pretty short. There is always the money, though, which is mighty generous by UK union standards and could be an attraction to some.

I'm watching with interest!
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Old 18th Jul 2002, 17:27
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Thumbs down

The job will represent a poisoned chalice and the new incumbent must expect to be stabbed in the back at the drop of a hat,as well as trying to keep the union together whilst as looks highly likely the large BA lunatic fringe destroy their employer in a suicide mission.Very sad that CD was effectively made redundant when the BA boys should really have changed their CCs who really control the direction in which they are headed,anyway whats done is done.I see little point in an election if there,s only one candidate.Hopefully if there is a vote next time the large number who couldn,t be bothered to vote last time might finally paticipate.In the end its the members who determine the direction of the union not the Gen.Sec.Chris Darke was poorly treated I hope he finds something better.
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Old 18th Jul 2002, 18:42
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Martin A,
"we have voted for the aquisition of a more militant gen Sec !!! "
AMEN BROTHER !

Satmpe
"Gen.Sec.Chris Darke was poorly treated "
CAN SOMEONE MISTREAT ME TO THE TUNE OF #85,000 pounds/year and company car for 3.5days work/week.

I won't bore you with the details of BA's financial liquidity amounting to #3.4 billion, disproving your theory of the BA Fringe Element on a suicidal Mission that will destroy our company. Habe a look yourself;
http://www.bashares.com/presentation.../slide17.shtml

Come on Guys, we want a guy who is going to kick some Airline Management A$$, how can that make you unhappy. Or were you satisfied with leaving our profession in its declining state .........that to me is suicidal.

The idea of how to proceed has I understand it come from the NEC so all companies are involved. Let your grievance be heard to your CC who has agreed to this method.

Last edited by airrage; 18th Jul 2002 at 18:51.
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Old 18th Jul 2002, 19:39
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Stampe

Frankly you'd have to be a complete loony to take on the new position given the method by which CD was removed. There is no job security there whether he/she does a good job or not. I would say to anyone who might be thinking about applying to think again, also remember that you will be asked to carry the can for all the CC's who are not able to take responsibility for their own actions.

I spoke to someone recently who had the chance to speak to JF at some length about what was going on. It made him even more certain that he would vote for CD ! He had no future plan or vision for the organisation. Airrage, apart from telling me to refer to JF's manifesto which decorated my bin at the time, perhaps you could tell me why he has not been able to remain GS until a new one has been found.


As I said before, I truly hope that the BA pilots will play the suicide card and go for strike action. As airrage says 'AMEN BROTHER !' Come on guys you know it makes sense, get that massive pay claim in that we have all been waiting for and watch your employer crumble. All the rest of us will benefit from your demise so give it a go, you know it makes sense.

Regards

Fuzzy

PS Remember that many people post on this board to solicit a response. Airrage is more that able to fulfill these needs.
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Old 18th Jul 2002, 21:08
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Well, I'm generally a moderate sort of geezer... and certainly not prone to posting for the sake of eliciting a response (although if you don't want a response... Why post? It's called DEBATE).

However, I entirely agree with airrage's views on this whole matter... Not least of which the imminent reversal in the decline of our industry's terms and conditions.

airrage may be verbose on occasion (I'm sure even he'd admit to that) but I don't believe he posts just to elicit reaction (at least in the sense you mean) from others. He believes in his point of view with a passion and puts his money where his mouth is - to the point of giving up his anonymity in the BA forum.

How many others can claim that?


And JF was prevented from taking up the post by BA refusing to allow him to retain his existing postition if he accepted the GS job. It really isn't an issue though... He achieved nothing more or less that he set out to... Simply to unseat the incumbent.

Time to spit out the sour grapes folks. We are where we are now... Let's just move forwards, eh?

Last edited by beaver eager; 18th Jul 2002 at 21:14.
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Old 18th Jul 2002, 21:18
  #73 (permalink)  

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Fuzzy

we BA pilots are quite capable of deciding our own actions

It is interesting that you seem to prefer the thought of having your lot improved for you by BA pilots destroying their company by a prolonged strike.

Had it occurred to you that the lot of all UK pilots would be improved by a successful outcome to an industrial dispute with BA management?

But then your postings betray your inevitable minor management position somewhere
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Old 18th Jul 2002, 21:24
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Dear Old Fuzzy,

"perhaps you could tell me why he has not been able to remain GS until a new one has been found. "
There you go again asking me to act like your Secretary, I suggest you turn to your CC rep if you want answer. Remeber our, "This is a Forum" Conversation a while back? Besides why should I waste my breathe if all you did when you had JF's Historic Manifesto was as you proudly state, "line your bin"with it.

For your second comment regarding bringing BA to financial collapse I refer you to the same link I quoted to Stampe regarding BA's 3.2billion pound liquidity.
http://www.bashares.com/presentation.../slide17.shtml
Despite many peoples not-so hidden fantasies, BA will continue to exist for many years to come and might even surprise a few low-cost Operators on it's return. Don't ever discount the Old staggering Heavy Weight.

As a long time reader of this Forum, I am sure you know the difference between people who are simple wind-up merchants and people who take the time to eloquently state their position backing it up where available with fact.

Thanks Eager Beaver, I agree on being verbose and think I've attained the slot merely out of lack of interest from anybody else wanting to be the target. I have indeed exposed myself on Pprune and BA's New Forum(my identity that is).

Last edited by airrage; 18th Jul 2002 at 21:27.
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Old 18th Jul 2002, 21:28
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"Had it occurred to you that the lot of all UK pilots would be improved by a successful outcome to an industrial dispute with BA management?"


Yes, and I entirely agree with you - but had it occurred to you that an unsuccessful outcome would be enormously of benefit as well !!! Either way I can't lose which is why I am FULLY supportive of industrial action by BA pilots. I just wish you guys would stop talking about it and get on with it. Why waste anymore time ? Airrage is such a wonderful militant, he is typical of those that are all talk and no action.

"But then your postings betray your inevitable minor management position somewhere"

Thanks for the complement - little could be further from the truth !
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Old 18th Jul 2002, 21:33
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Dearest Airrage

"Despite many peoples not-so hidden fantasies, BA will continue to exist for many years to come and might even surprise a few low-cost Operators on it's return. Don't ever discount the Old staggering Heavy Weight. "

That is EXACTLY what people said about Sabena and Swissair. Wake up for crying out loud. A national airline is NOT a certainty anymore. BTW 3.7 billion is peanuts in the overall scheme of things. Your link says nothing of interest about anything. Thanks for not answering the question - again !

With best regards

dear old fuzzy
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Old 18th Jul 2002, 21:59
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Fuzzy,

I repeat,
I am NO-ONE's Secretary and it is not my job to seek out answers to your questions. Refer specific questions about the NEC's process to your CC rep.

As for BA's Current finacial situation it is not great but more survivable than most including Virgin, BM, etc, etc. So unless you're counting on the whole of the UK's airlines going down the drain I suggest you get your facts correct.

To quote Rod Eddington in a recent interview, when asked,

"Would even a mini-repeat of 11 September kill BA?

Eddington reckons BA's buffers are so strong that it would have to be 'twice as bad as 11 September or the Gulf War' - if that is imaginable - in order to scupper the carrier by blasting a 2bn hole in its revenues. He reckons BA has 1.2bn of cash reserves 'to hand', 600m in available (banking) facilities together with 'substantial assets that we could liquidate if we wanted to' - and is nowhere near even contemplating a rights issue."

BA has 1.2bn of cash reserves - How much is your outfit worth in total FUZZY ?

But then I suppose you'll tell me he's just lieing or doesn't know BA's Situation better than some guy who calls himself FUZZY on a Pilot Forum. And I suppose you can tell me how BA can collapse with 3.2Billion pounds worth of Liquidity.

Care to quote me Saben's or SwissAir's financial balance sheets when they collapsed FUZZY ? IF not then you might as well compare BA to the Titanic for what relevance it has.

Final Point FUZZY, BA is no longer a National Airline as you state, it has been Privatised. Another FUZZY CLassic Post of Irrelevance and Inaccuracies.
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Old 18th Jul 2002, 22:02
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Seeems to have livened up whilst I was away flying !
JF could only have taken up the post after resigning from BA, standard terms of employment for GS at BALPA. BA quite within rights to not have ANYONE doing work that might conflict with BA business, hence demise of paid freelance flying for air taxi operators on days off for many of us some time ago.
Would you really have wanted a part-timer any way? Hard to get advice in the middle of a dispute if he had been away in France or Singapore methinks !
Airrage, I think LCG would love an ill concieved dispute with half hearted support at BA, it would cripple BALPA for a long time and he IS busy orchestrating this for sure. He wants a permanent momento and it only needs a bunch of naive hot heads to provide one. I for certain would not recommend giving command of negotaitions to ANY GS without power of veto by CCs. I would not want to be fame fodder for anyone.
Enough for now
Martin A

PS how would becoming militant trade unionists inwilling to reason etc improve our image ?
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Old 18th Jul 2002, 22:12
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Hi Martin

"ill concieved dispute with half hearted support at BA"
Have you seen the POLL on the BA Pprune Forum? Out of
80 Votes; 76 want STRIKE, 4 say NO STRIKE.
half-hearted, I think not.

"I for certain would not recommend giving command of negotaitions to ANY GS without power of veto by CCs."
Who told you this was the Intent or this your own Policy Idea ?

"PS how would becoming militant trade unionists inwilling to reason etc improve our image ?"
We have long conceded that there is little we do can ever to have an image comnesurate with the responsibility of our Position. This is about MONEY, not improving our image. My image will look much better(or feel better) when I trade my Ford Escort in for a 911 Porsche.

Lets not confuse a PAY DEAL with a Popularity Contest. For the last decade we've taken one crap PAY DEAL after the next, can you explain to me in detail how our IMAGE has improved over this time period. The 2 are obviously not statistically proven to be correlated don't you agree ?

Are you a friend of LCG ?
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Old 18th Jul 2002, 23:00
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So airrage 76 out of the 4,500 pilots in BA have made a decisive vote?
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