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Frohnsdorff Runs Amok (merged)

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Frohnsdorff Runs Amok (merged)

Old 2nd Jul 2002, 14:59
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Thumbs down Frohnsdorff Runs Amok

What's going on? John Frohnsdorff convincingly won the election for General Secretary of BALPA. Under the rules, this means he will be appointed by the NEC at their next meeting, which is today.

However, I see from other posts that he has advertised for a new General Secretary:
(http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...eferrerid=5232)
and has not denied the story in the Financial Times, associated with his success in the elections, that "Senior BA union activists were last week talking up the possibility of a strike by Christmas".
(http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentSe...=1012571727310)

As a BALPA member, I am somewhat disturbed that one of my potential employees is acting in this way. He has no authority to take either of these actions on his own, either as an NEC member or as General Secretary, assuming he accepts the post when it is offered to him today. I see one of his supporters has written to the Association Chairman saying: "Please can we stop using the ADC and our rules as an excuse to keep BALPA in its current format." Perhaps John and his followers should have made it clear that he was standing on the anarchist ticket. Mark Young saved another one of his supporters from the sack many years ago when he attempted to use his BALPA position to secure a lucrative contract for his catering company. The price for keeping his job with BA was that he would not seek office in BALPA again. Even if his fellow BALPA members had forgotten about this, I would be surprised if BA had.

I have no doubt that in the coming days we will see an increasing amount of twaddle revolving around the phrase "a mandate from the members". Don't be deceived by this. If John Frohnsdorff made promises in his manifesto that he had no chance of fulfilling, he will have to justify that to his electors. If he applied for a job he had no intention of accepting, he should answer to all BALPA members for wasting their time and money. His manifesto was that he would remain in the post until a suitable replacement was found, not accepting a penny piece for his employment, and that is what all BALPA members have a right to expect from him.

He applied for a job with an association that has a clear set of rules. He has assumed powers well above those the General Secretary enjoys, before he has been installed in the post. His supporter suggests that the association rules and governing body should be brushed aside. I hope that the NEC and the delegates will deal with them appropriately. The association needs a Delegates Conference as soon as possible.

Last edited by pom; 2nd Jul 2002 at 15:08.
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Old 2nd Jul 2002, 15:28
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What? That doesn't make a great deal of sense Pom. JF said he'd stand for election and if succesful would find a replacement GS for the long term. Now he's advertising in the press for applicants to fill the GS post with the minimum of delay. Whats your problem? Why should he deny stories that BA pilots are squaring up for a fight with management? You only have to read this forum to realise just how true that is. As GS I think John has every right to take these actions on his own. He said he'd get a new GS and hes doing it. He's asked his opinion by the press and he gives it. Do you think he should set up a 'Thought Commission', presided over by the NEC, to determine what his opinion should be?

Indeed I think the NEC should take note of what you term "a mandate from the members", a 70% share of the vote in one of the highest electoral turnouts BALPA has seen for years. A vote which resoundingly rejected the NECs preferred candidate. A vote which should tell the NEC that BALPA members want to change the way BALPA does business. The NEC serves us, not the other way round, and if JF acts as a catalyst to transform the upper echelons of BALPA into a more effective and accountable body then all the better.
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Old 2nd Jul 2002, 15:54
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Pom, JF stood on a platform of winning BALPA back for its members, and stated he would stand down on winning for a candidate who can handle the job. I would imagine this is the first part of the process of getting the members the best candidate. In the last decade, BALPA has been hamstrung from within, and it is a joy to hear the guns already being run out for action now that the great drag on any progress on our behalf has been removed. John is fulfilling his part of the bargain- trust him.
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Old 2nd Jul 2002, 16:05
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John Frohnsdorff
I would not be happy myself if BALPA where to be left rudderless; this will not happen. We do have qualified people that will be interested in applying for the GS position; additionally it is the intent to advertise the position to make sure we get the best person for the job. I will fill the position in the interim; please remember I have extensive NEC experience.


Do you intend to fill the position as you stated, or is Graham Fowler going to do so? Presumably, Graham has a job of his own to do.


Do you remember writing that Pom? I can't quite see your problem. JF has issued an advertisement for the post of GS. That was the promise that he made when he stood. What exactly is your issue with that?
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Old 2nd Jul 2002, 16:31
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Question

So would JF clearly like to state in public as it appears that he will take up the role of GS that he will accept no renumeration from that substantially rewarded position , will resign immediately from his long haul role in BA, reside in the UK and pay UK tax . He will clearly have to live in the UK full time to fulfill the rigorous role of GS.I think we should have our minds put at rest on this point.

Last edited by Stampe; 2nd Jul 2002 at 16:36.
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Old 2nd Jul 2002, 16:33
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Your are all writing too fast and using big words.

Give little pom a break; and stop using logic to confuse him.

XFO1-11
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Old 2nd Jul 2002, 16:59
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Stampe,

JF has stated that he will accept no renumeration. It was in his manifesto if you bothered to read it.

He has not stated that he will resign immediately from his long haul role in BA, nor should he. I quite like the idea of a Gen Sec that is actively involved in aviation.

He has not stated that he will reside in the UK, why should he? Like you I can live wherever I wish, why should JF be treated any differently.

As for paying UK tax, what has that got to do with you or anybody else and what possible relevance has it to JF's position as Gen Sec?

As for 'putting our minds at rest', your post would indicate that yours is pretty much there already!


Regards
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Old 2nd Jul 2002, 18:02
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Man, whose this "pom" guy? What a hot head! Bla Bla Bla.
The only thing interesting was the mention about a Christmas strike. Is that his subliminal message, or is it just an overstressed shareholding manager?
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Old 2nd Jul 2002, 18:42
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I agree the Association Rules must be Followed.

The NEC would be WISE to use their powers vested in them by the Association rules to assist JF in anyway possible so as to fulfill his manifesto promises. To fail to do so would be seen by the members as malicious and purposeful Interference and the NEC member doing so would no doubt incur the wrath of the 70% of the members who voted for JF in their next Elections.

Any member of the NEC who has failed to clearly grasp the "need for change" message sent BALPA in the recent GS Elections from the Members should stand down now. This is not a time for personal vendetta's (ie. questioning where one choses to live, irrelevant spouting of unsubstantiated claims of indescretions of ones supporters, etc.)

Pom, get with the Program. 3000 BALPA members have expressed the desire for a change in the way BALPA do business, this doesn't mean it can't be acheived within existing Rules. Any reps from CC's up to NEC must do their best within the Rules to assist in this Process or stand aside. The NEC cannot be seen displaying sour grapes about not getting their proposed candidate elected or face the consequences themselves. The NEC is there for our benefit after all, and the members have spoken clearly on the matter. I expect the NEC to display a professional attitude and get down to the matter at hand........improving Pilots T&C's from the depths they have sank to over the past 10years. Any less will not suffice and they would be silly not to realise the strong sentiment present in the membership and use it to their advantage to get things accomplished.

If you're not part of the Solution, you're part of the Problem...... which side of the line are you on POM ?

Last edited by airrage; 2nd Jul 2002 at 18:51.
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Old 2nd Jul 2002, 18:50
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Here goes.

All the sniping begins. I didn't vote for JF, but I am keen to see how he will deal with an extended stay as GS.

The way I see it is:

July: Places an ad for a new GS.

Aug: Interviews for new GS. Decision at end of August.

Sept: First week and offer is made.

(definitely) Oct, Nov,Dec: JF is still GS as we wait for our new GS to work notice.

(possibly) Jan, Feb and a little bit of March: We wait as a union for our new leader if he/she is on 6 months notice/or gardening leave....

It could take a while guys. I for one hope JF spends more time at New Road than at the Compass Centre.....

My date for a new GS to join.......at the earliest 8th January 2003 (assuming that is a working day).

So, let's not bicker too much now. We have another 6 months to fill.
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Old 2nd Jul 2002, 20:51
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Thumbs up

if nothing else, personally i think the title of this thread is great....
bring it on as our american cousins say.
by the way pom, we need a GS to push his message forcefully, even if john is only in the job for a short while we can't let any mangyment (sic) take advantage of what they perceive as a "rudderless" union.
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Old 2nd Jul 2002, 21:25
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Sorry. From the title of this thread I thought it might involve biting or kicking something...
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Old 2nd Jul 2002, 23:29
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Cool

It appears some of you have missed the point of my post, although I did try to use short words.

John has been making decisions, spending money, sending out press statements, and advertising jobs when he had no authority to do so. He was due to be appointed General Secretary at today's NEC meeting. He chose not to accept the job.

This means he is not now and never has been the General Secretary.
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Old 3rd Jul 2002, 00:00
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pom,

I think you have missed the point!

"John has been making decisions"
Oh my God! Stop that immediately; Doesn't he know BALPA doesn't do that sort of thing.

"spending money"
Nope! NEC does that; and not very well for the past four years. Excluding yacht hire of course! How many was it? Ah yes! I remember; six of them!

"sending out press statements"
Good grief! He could be proactive. Quick! Shoot Him!

"and advertising jobs"
Wrong! Post the advert here to prove it. What! Having problems locating it!

"He chose not to accept the job."
BA stated they would have to consider sacking him if he took it!

It fact John has agreed with Mervyn Granshaw( NEC Chairman), in conjunction with the NEC, for Mervyn to take the GS position whilst the position is advertised. Thereby fulfilling his manifesto obligation. John will lead the selection committee.

Not the story you portray Pom! Is it!

XFO1-11

P.S. I unreservedly apologise for any big words or logic used in this post that confuses Pom! Bless him.
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Old 3rd Jul 2002, 00:35
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"BA stated they would have to consider sacking him if he took it!"

And this is the man who was going to lead you in your "strike by Christmas".


"Nope! NEC does that (spending money); and not very well for the past four years. Excluding yacht hire of course! How many was it? Ah yes! I remember; six of them!"

John has, without authorisation, spend several thousand pounds of the Association's money during his brief period as General Secretary elect. Why don't you expand on your allegations about the yacht hire?


"John will lead the selection committee."

Check your facts.


"Wrong! Post the advert here to prove it (advertising jobs). What! Having problems locating it! "

Certainly:

BOAC
Lowly moderator
posted 1st July 2002 13:30
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BALPA General Secretary
Applications are underway for the post of General Secretary of BALPA, to replace the recently elected John Frohnsdorff, and are being advertised in the national press.

Just in case there are any suitable 'pruning' candidates for this post who may have missed these notices, please send brief contact details with your expression of interest to:-

The General Secretary
BALPA
81 New Road
Harlington
Hayes
Middlesex
UB3 5BG

or by email to:-

[email protected]

or by telephone to:-

02084764000 Fax 4077

SERIOUS applications only, please.


I'm glad to see that this post has now been removed. However, the final line would have prevented a rerun of the last debacle.

Last edited by pom; 3rd Jul 2002 at 00:50.
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Old 3rd Jul 2002, 10:16
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The number of posts here, none of which support your opinion POM says it all. The Election's over, you're obviously not happy about the results, get over it. Welcome to a democracy.

The FT article you provide, not only proves that JF is doing exactly as promised, but is perhaps even more effective than we could have hoped for. Even before having officially taken office, he has already sent a shiver down the execs of the airlines. This is exactly the kind of message that BALPA members wanted to send. A renewed activism that is going to TAKE back all we've lost over the last 10years of a$$-kissing.

Nothing of substance you have posted should cause anything but praise from members who wanted BALPA to become more aggressive. POM you are the weakest link...........GOOD-BYE !
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Old 3rd Jul 2002, 10:18
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hear hear airrage.

BALPA's been pussy footing around far too long.......
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Old 3rd Jul 2002, 10:31
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Pom,

There hasn't been an advertising campaign in the press.

You are quoting a post on PPruNe; and it is not even in John's name.

The yacht item has been covered to death on another thread and I am not going to start it up again.

Can we just please accept the election result and move on.

Regards,
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Old 3rd Jul 2002, 11:00
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Thumbs down

Our CC have made a statement that JF has quit and new elections are to be held. If so, I'm quitting too and will never return to this wretched quango style outfit. Well done JF and I pray the mafia lot don't win.
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Old 3rd Jul 2002, 13:34
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Upperecam- have you been reading all the literature? JF stood on a platform of quitting immediately and letting the members choose a new GS. JF never wanted the job. It was largely a case of getting the incumbent out. John wants to resign and get the process underway. It is all to plan. At last the members are going to hold the whip hand. You should be rejoicing.
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