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Frohnsdorff Runs Amok (merged)

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Frohnsdorff Runs Amok (merged)

Old 18th Jul 2002, 23:32
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Hi Mouse, you guys(Martin, Fuzzy) always attack in groups or what.

I have stated many times during the MG and CD POLLs my opinions about their accuracy and worth so since Mouse only likes small posts I won't repeat the debate here. I never claimed them to be a scientific study, but perhaps an indicator about how people might vote given a chance. Heck, it wasn't too far off with Old CD was it ? Didn't want to bring it up at the time as people were still in shock.

I also won't explain in length sampling and the scientific method employed by scientists to arrive at statistical accurate conclusions. However it might make it clearer for you if I say simply, the vote is 77/81 not 77/4500. You don't have to chop every tree down in a forest and count the trees rings of every tree just to get an idea of the average age of the forest. Great thing these statistic thingies don't you agree Mouse ?

One question, when did you last count 4500 Pilots in BA ?
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Old 19th Jul 2002, 00:11
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So you have never heard of the silent majority?

I am as disgruntled and fed up as the rest with 10 years of falling behind on the pay front and working harder each year that passes.

You seem all fired up and ready for a strike. I am not and I know numerous others who are not. I also know that many, many people within BA do not bother with an anonymous poll on an anonymous BBS.

I wonder if BA can survive as it is now, it is my personal opinion that a strike would probably just hasten the end.

An example of the real problems facing BA is how do you tell thousands of cabin crew that they can no longer be bussed from central area to the reporting centre for a break, giving around 2 hours for a turnaround, before being bussed back again for their next sector? They would defend their existing working practices as militantly as you defend yours.

The management cannot even get the drivers to agree that two separate buses (one for flight crew, one for cabin crew) meeting EVERY LHR long haul arrival is an extravagance!

Multiply these examples a hundred fold and one gets the true picture of why BA is losing money and cannot compete in today's very changed environment.

Administration or even bankruptcy will probably be the only way that the real problems will be addressed because nobody knows how to address them at the moment.

An airline will continue but in what form and how many of us will be employed is a good question.
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Old 19th Jul 2002, 02:39
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Mouse you have chosen a truly suiting Nickname. But I'm afraid it is the very honourable attitude you display that is the very reason why BA Pilots have lost so much over the years. The agreeable, reasonable, "disgruntled and fed-up" but quiet approach has not worked and will not.

I think you will find should it unfortunately come down to a ballot that the Silent majority in fact will support a strike because the silent majority are as fed up as you state even if not VERBOSE. The silent majority is becoming VERBOSE because no one has been listening. I have stated all along that I do not WANT to strike, I want to PAID equitably(mkt rate) and that may result in a strike. There is a massive difference here, not just semantics.

The Militancy or Lunacy of the transport and CC working practises you mentioned are a far cry from BA Pilots willing to stand up and fight because we are paid 40% less than other Collegaues for the same job. We could all start into how others in BA are way overpaid to mkt rate whilst it's pilots are underpaid, but at the end of the day it is irrelevant.

At some point we have to realise that BA's problems with other Employees is not our job or concern. Our declining Pay and increasing work for the past 10years certainly hasn't expediated BA tackling these inefficiencies ! In fact the more we have saved them the more they waste elsewhere. Maybe they will only start to tackle the real reasons we lose money only if forced to.

We've got to stop acting like it's up to BA Pilots alone whether our company will return to Profitability............it isn't. We aren't even afforded the means to make any changes so why do we accept the Responsibility. We are too Reasonable and this is being used against us whilst others get away with murder.

I would take a PAY CUT tomorrow if I felt I worked for an outfit that;
1. Cared at all for Us - Pilots are considered so low down the BA totem Pole we just never realised it. They don't want to even concede non-pay related Status issues. New people joining with Staff travel priorities above 20year CAPT's, etc, etc.
2. BA had already made all the Tough Decisions to become Profitable and was still failing.
3. I trusted BA Mgt.
4. I really believed BA was financially against the wall. The are NOT !!!!!! It might not be a shareholder pleaser but we are far from Bust and could withstand more than most other UK outfits.
5. I thought it would make a difference.

Mouse can you tell me which of the 1-5 above you think BA qualify.

I was not born Militant, and I was thrilled when I first joined BA. I am also not thrilled to go on strike, but I will only be taken for granted for so long, I think 12years of broken promises is patient enough.

PS: Mouse if you are BA then some of things would be better discussed on the new BA-BALPA Forum.
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Old 19th Jul 2002, 09:30
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OOps! Sorry about that but thought this topic was about Frohnsdorff. Must be my mistake. You guys carry on, I apologise if I interrupted any rantings.
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Old 19th Jul 2002, 11:25
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Who are you.......thread Monitor ?
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Old 19th Jul 2002, 15:18
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Or should I say.......Thread Creep Monitor to be more precise.
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Old 19th Jul 2002, 17:32
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Yep, lots of peole voted in the poll as you say, quite alot voted in the GS poll, and more than a few seemed not to quite have clear how BALPA as an organisation functioed, but that is now done. Statistics are great, but do get messed up by indifference and apathy when humans get involved. I mean you can guess the age of the average tree in the forest as you mentioned, but then half of them don't go and hide from you because they can't be bothered to participate and screw up the results one way or the other!
Please identify the 40% deficit in pay we seem to suffer, discountin all additional benefits, including pension etc and removing any exchange rate effects, compared to a suitable range of other airlines internationally, both private and state owned as well as UK operators. Either I have missed something or what, but one UK carrier , whose pilots are paid less than BA has jsut settled for 2%, yes 2 not 20%, so it does make one wonder just how we are going to sell a 40% pay rise to anyone as being necessary or justified.
As to other staff, yep things are changing, crew numbers are changing and as I mentioned some 2000 or so cabin crew will not have ajob fairly soon, that being in addition to those who could redploy within BA, so it is not rosy elsewhere.
No status does not pay the mortgage, never did, money does that. If economics force an airline to lose routes someone pays with a lost job, including us ! Please select 10 or 20% of YOUR mates to lose their job in the greater good of the few that may be left behind .
As to certification of pilots, much as we would like to think that we individually are indispensable, we are not. the operating licence does not depend on more than a handful of pilots in key positions asdefined by the AOC etc. If we all needed to be replaced, then as long as you have training and checking system of you go and recruit. Just having a pilots licence will not get you an AOC I am afraid, but having all of the other stuff will let you set up an airline and employ pilots to operate under your AOC, not I am afraid vice versa.
By the way anybody know of someone who flys less safe because he did not get paid enough at the time ? A constantly daft statement. Paying less may well mean you only retain lower calibre pilots in the long term, due to market forces, but even they don't deliberateltle fly less safe because of the pay !

As someone mentioned, this is a bit of a lions den to enter. I comes across as a bit extreme and moderate views do seem to get slagged off, so I would agree that what you get here may not always reflect the full cross section of views. I never did get here before the JF vote for example, so that was at least one other view not seen.
By the way BALPA accounts winging their way to you, should interst those making the more outlandish claims about BALPA high life and costs . How would some of them fancy getting upo at 4 30 in ABZ nice trek on staff travel to LHR, all day at NR and then return to ABZ whence you came. All this, only to be told by some smart alec on the forum that he objects to you having a free sandwich on BALPA. That, whilst he is happy for BALPA to argue for his employer to provide all kinds of refreshments whilst at work, but he is not prepared to fork out for a sandwich for a volunteer who spends many free hours helping us get an improved working environment!


TTFN Martin A
Sorry about thread creep, just like to even out the arguments with facts not emotions
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Old 19th Jul 2002, 19:04
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Martin,

If I believed half of what you said about Aviation, I would run a hot bath and slash my wrists this evening. Why are you still flying if you think the future so Dim ?

I can't believe it so difficult to convince pilots that they deserve more Pay. Have you had a look beyond your Cap Brim for the last decade ?

You are still mumbling about the Election and how we begrudge Reps a free sandwich, what a load of Bo.....s. I suppose all the trees you talk about running away belonged to CD did they ? Indifference is a choice as well you know and not a sign of support for an incumbent.

As for the 40% PAY arguement, have a look here;
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=56691
it is discussed elswhere as well in detail so no need to go into things here. If you have anything to do with BALPA, as you continually allude, then surely you are not disputing the Research carried out by your own Mates involved in the PAY Negotiations? You also say you are one for reading details so I don't think you wouldn't have read it. Which figure of underpay do you want me to quote here, productivity, as a %of total wages compared to other airlines, etc, etc.

I think you said you are Airbus BA, have a look on the relevant BA boards and you will see many explanations and comparisons, both Pilot and non-flying jobs showing how underpaid we are.

You also continue to take the world on your shoulders. What CC get paid, BA's profit(or lackof) and how the world view us is not in on control to change. You are thinking like a CEO and getting paid like a monkey. Don't be confused with visions of grand illusion that Pilots in BA have any status to effect necessary changes. We don't. If others are overpaid in BA then it is up to BA to change that, not up to Pilots to take less money so that BA can afford those higher wages elsewhere.

Your AOC comments you can't believe yourself as a training CAPT. BA's AOC also depends on experience levels. How long does it take BA to fully train a Pilot on Airbus ? How many Pilots can it train at one time ? How many Airbus Pilots would it need to train to replace the current fleet ? You get the idea Martin ? Now do the same maths for all the other fleets, and ask yourself how long before the can't replace the 3500 BA Pilots presently working. Not to mention the CC all going out of recency whilst this training occurs. If we go, BA goes, SIMPLE FACT ! They have no intention to do so, but feed on the type of FEAR displayed in your posts. When you look at the FACTS, as you say, we could probably get 50% and BA would still survive.

I am not saying Pay equates SAFETY and saying, "no-one fly's less safe deliberately because they are paid less" is a ridiculous arguement. It says nothing to justify paying Pilots less than Market Rate. You could halve my pay and I won't crash a plane, but that is irrelevant to the arguement, I am Underpaid.

Martin you really do have a negative outlook of what can be acheived by sticking together and putting together a well researched and Fair Pay Proposal. I can't help read between the lines that you are a bit upset that those around you have decided enough is enough and are starting to rock the boat. I am not saying you are colluding with mgmt, but I suspect you are quite happy with your training CAPT's pay, worried that a strike might occur resulting in BA telling you are mgmt and are expected to be at work and all your colleagues saying "why are you crossing our picket line Martin". Either that or you are approaching retirement, have less to gain being at PP24 than the 35% at the bottom in BA and are worried it could result in a PENSION problem.

Own up Martin, there is some ulterior motive to your ultra-Conservative we are lucky to have jobs that pay less than mkt-rate(including Easyjets, etc) speel. I'm sure it's not just sore grapes from the GS Election.

Last edited by airrage; 19th Jul 2002 at 19:08.
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Old 19th Jul 2002, 23:46
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Airrage when was the last time your head had the opportunity to see daylight?
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Old 20th Jul 2002, 11:45
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Mouse, I don't know why you insist on criticising people like me who are battling to secure a Pay Rise for people like you who say yourself, "I am too scared to lose". I wish you showed as much backbone on the Issues as you do criticising me.

On advice from others I have agreed to remove myself from the Gerneral Pprune Forum(cheers in the background) on the Issues of PAY so as to not display our dirty laundry in Public.

Adios.
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Old 21st Jul 2002, 09:27
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Calm down, calm down! (In Scouse accent a la Harry Enfield)

You're jumping the gun Tandemrotor.

It clearly states on the BA Council website (which would be a better place for this question), that the deal that BA wants in respect of the RJ and the BAR work, will not be done unless BA agree to the whole of the scope deal that the reps are working on! These negotioations are not yet completed and it has been stated that the whole package will be put to a vote amongst the membership anyway.

Have a little faith that those who represent us (and I don't believe JF is part of the scope team anyway, although I stand to be corrected on this). I am sure they believe that they are negotiating something that will be good for everyone in the long term.

Until the FULL picture is known, it would be better to keep your powder dry. Can I urge you to delete your post above and re-post it in one of the BA Private fora if you really feel the need at this time?
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Old 21st Jul 2002, 17:04
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A few facts might help here.

There are a number of steps to become General Secretary of BALPA. Get nominated, get elected, get appointed by the NEC and finally, sign the contract.

Frohnsdorff chose not to accept the appointment or sign the contract. His choice, and probably what we all expected from his manifesto. He was only, therefore, the General Secretary ELECT.

Between election and the first NEC following, he represented himself and acted as if he was the new General Secretary in every particular (writing letters, changing letterheads interviewing staff, ordering new mobile telephone etc etc.) A slight case of misrepresentation maybe?

No doubt many of you will be howling that these finer details do not matter.

Well, we are where we are as the cliche says. Having gone through this pain (and don't think it's all over yet) we need to get the best firm of headhunters to draw up a shortlist of the very best candidates for the job. Whether this leads to another election or not is too soon to tell. If we had two sparkling candidates of equal stature, then probably yes. But this will take time playmates if you want the very best. And probably quite a lot of money as well. Your money and my money.

Thinks. Maybe, I will stand as a candidate next time - on a de-mutualisation mandate perhaps. If you add up all of BALPA's assets and divide it by the number of members - could be a tidy sum??

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Keep the blue side up!!
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Old 22nd Jul 2002, 21:48
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Just a though for those wincing at the cost of the last GS. The head of the Amicus (AEUW ) Derek Simpson is quoted on one daily as setting the members back some 101,000 per annum, with total running cost approaching 200, 000 per annum. One view is we will need to pay more, probably in region off 120, 000 to get something worth having !

TTFN
Martin A

airrage, sorry only pay point 16 retiring soonish, May 2006, would prefer to be on PP 24 now, but mum and dad were a bit slow off the mark !!!
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Old 23rd Jul 2002, 10:06
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I would be happy to pay double CD's wages if we were to get an effective, Full-Time, Pro-Active Indutrial GS who would actually guide our CC reps in negotiations resulting in higher status/wages for ALL Pilots in the UK.

Why are we still even talking about CD ? QUIZ - Does anyone(besides Martin) remember the name of the GS before CD ?

Martin, PP16.........Then you would benefit more than I would if the pay scale were to become more linear. Of course any higher salary would also increase your pension for evermore as well(as you are not maxed on PP24). Does the idea of going on strike worry you because you are retiring soonish ? I am asking honestly not sarcastically, because I think a few people saying they would not support a strike, despite their reasons given, are actually worried at the outside risk it could affect their pension if unsuccessful.

PS: I think a lot of this discussion should now be moved off the General Members Board to the BA Pprune of BA-BALPA Forum don't you agree?

Last edited by airrage; 23rd Jul 2002 at 11:11.
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Old 23rd Jul 2002, 12:28
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Airrage (two r's, no sense)

Roger Mulberge (acting GS following the death of)
Mark Young

Next question?
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Old 23rd Jul 2002, 16:16
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Brae_Cwynd

Your only 2posts on this thread have been;

1. What happened to John Frohnsdorf running amok?

Serious case of thread creep here !!

( and Airrage with two r's is still as verbose as ever )

and

2. Airrage (two r's, no sense)

Roger Mulberge (acting GS following the death of)
Mark Young

Next question?


I'm beginning to think you have some personal grudge. Do you have anything else to contribute other than childish criticism or snyde remarks, like an Informed Opinion for one ?

Last edited by airrage; 23rd Jul 2002 at 16:21.
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Old 23rd Jul 2002, 19:05
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Gentlemen, why are you still discussing all this here? I think you have got personal and are not achieving anything. Wash your dirties in the BA Forum please! Everyone else is long gone.
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Old 24th Jul 2002, 12:58
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Whoops! Think we touched a nerve here...

Airrage appears to overlook the post I made at the top of this page regarding the possible misrepresentation by JF of his position following the election.

Sorry. No further informed opinion to add.
(Thinks, are opinions ever informed?)


Last edited by Brae_Cwynd; 26th Jul 2002 at 23:22.
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