Emirates B777 gear collapse @ DXB?
There is no mention of a bounce in the report. They got an overshoot shear in the flare, which caused them to float down the runway due to excess IAS (energy). Right gear touched down 1100m from the threshold followed by the left gear, then the 'LONG LANDING' warning, then the problems began.
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Though faced with a fast diminishing runway as well they still managed to do a dry Sullenburger.
I would suggest that Sully's wet arrival had a modicum of control about it: I suspect this was was under the control of gravity.
I would suggest that Sully's wet arrival had a modicum of control about it: I suspect this was was under the control of gravity.
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Sully was way more under influence of gravity than this crew was. They had a perfectly working aircraft. Sully did not! Still, he just did his pilot **** and everyone walked away.
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Nobody in this threat has considered a couple of crucial factors on WHY this Captain decided to GO AROUND AFTER TOUCHDOWN.(after 6 seconds wheels on the ground)
1.- EK PUNITIVE CULTURE:
- This Captain felt a burning and penetrating heat in his ass after the "LANDING LONG" RAAS came out.
"WARNING LETTER AHEAD!!! ****!!! GO AROUND!!!"
- This Captain Touched down 1,100 meters from the runway 12L threshold.
- Distance left to Stop the aircraft to taxi speed: 2500 meters.
- Enough Runway left to stop the aircraft safely and vacate via M12 or M13.
Anybody disagrees?
2.- POOR LINE TRAINING:
- In order to feel comfortable to Brake and Stop a B777 under this particular situation, Crews must trained accordingly by their employer.
This basic piloting skills, will allow Crews to feel confident to Land on auto brakes, take over the brakes manually, slow down gradually, to reach taxi speed before reaching your planned exit taxiway.
- EK Training Department expects and encourage Crews to use AUTOBRAKES until reaching 40 or 60 knots (i do not remember exactly now), even if you have 1000 meters runway ahead before your planned exit taxiway. I had this discussion with a TRI after a Line Check.
His highly qualified and professional answer was: "this is what we expect"...
3.- It is not a secret that CREWS in EK have practically no room to make decisions based on their own Judgement and experience, and have been turned, unfortunately, into mere machine operators, and modern slaves operators.
EK management has perfectly aligned the Holes of the infamous swiss cheese Model.
The next "Operational Incident" it is just a matter of time...
1.- EK PUNITIVE CULTURE:
- This Captain felt a burning and penetrating heat in his ass after the "LANDING LONG" RAAS came out.
"WARNING LETTER AHEAD!!! ****!!! GO AROUND!!!"
- This Captain Touched down 1,100 meters from the runway 12L threshold.
- Distance left to Stop the aircraft to taxi speed: 2500 meters.
- Enough Runway left to stop the aircraft safely and vacate via M12 or M13.
Anybody disagrees?
2.- POOR LINE TRAINING:
- In order to feel comfortable to Brake and Stop a B777 under this particular situation, Crews must trained accordingly by their employer.
This basic piloting skills, will allow Crews to feel confident to Land on auto brakes, take over the brakes manually, slow down gradually, to reach taxi speed before reaching your planned exit taxiway.
- EK Training Department expects and encourage Crews to use AUTOBRAKES until reaching 40 or 60 knots (i do not remember exactly now), even if you have 1000 meters runway ahead before your planned exit taxiway. I had this discussion with a TRI after a Line Check.
His highly qualified and professional answer was: "this is what we expect"...
3.- It is not a secret that CREWS in EK have practically no room to make decisions based on their own Judgement and experience, and have been turned, unfortunately, into mere machine operators, and modern slaves operators.
EK management has perfectly aligned the Holes of the infamous swiss cheese Model.
The next "Operational Incident" it is just a matter of time...
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An airliner isn't an F-16 or a SEL doing a touch and go. It isn't as easy as an F-16 or an SEL but it also isn't as hard as this event turned out.
Trainee - "how high can I go on a go-around if I don't advance the power?"
Instructor - "that's a stupid question. Who would do that?"
Trainee - "I was told it's 85'."
Instructor - "really? How'd they come up with that number?"
Trainee - "how high can I go on a go-around if I don't advance the power?"
Instructor - "that's a stupid question. Who would do that?"
Trainee - "I was told it's 85'."
Instructor - "really? How'd they come up with that number?"
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F16 ... you clearly don't know the airline world (anymore or yet).
In the airline pilots didn't know how to fly planes back in the days of "Children of the Magenta" video (1997). And in those days cross-checking, AoA and power, "aviate-navigate-comm" was still in the back of their heads.
Today pilots don't even know what they don't know.
They really don't fly planes that's for for sure and that is because they have never been trained to fly planes, till the point a level-off can be a very challenging maneuvers with all the automation engaged.
And what the airline managements are doing about it? Micromanaged with overdose of NOP. This is proven to create task saturation and general confusion.
They think they can fly the plane seated in the office. They will pretty soon but not yet. They have not solve the morale/social dilemma of a passengers plane without pilots!
In the airline pilots didn't know how to fly planes back in the days of "Children of the Magenta" video (1997). And in those days cross-checking, AoA and power, "aviate-navigate-comm" was still in the back of their heads.
Today pilots don't even know what they don't know.
They really don't fly planes that's for for sure and that is because they have never been trained to fly planes, till the point a level-off can be a very challenging maneuvers with all the automation engaged.
And what the airline managements are doing about it? Micromanaged with overdose of NOP. This is proven to create task saturation and general confusion.
They think they can fly the plane seated in the office. They will pretty soon but not yet. They have not solve the morale/social dilemma of a passengers plane without pilots!
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So here we have a number of posters with no relevant experience asking apparently reasonable questions, but with no context.
I've just written this in a PM, and it pretty much sums up my view:
(That's before we even mention the 'F' word!)
That is the context against which to judge the opinions of people with little (or no!) recent experience of long haul airline flying.
So what's the answer, when Joe public picks their flight and airline PURELY on the price of their ticket, and airlines cut costs to the bone to compete? Oh, and pay their execs massive bonuses of course!!!
I've just written this in a PM, and it pretty much sums up my view:
Have 'basic' flying skills been degraded, perhaps even devalued? Yes, absolutely! But to a large extent, that's an occupational hazard inherent in the type of flying we do, and the environment in which we do it.
It does nobody any good, nor solves any problems, to simply blame the 2 'bozos' (not my choice of word!) in the front when all the holes in the Swiss cheese align!
It does nobody any good, nor solves any problems, to simply blame the 2 'bozos' (not my choice of word!) in the front when all the holes in the Swiss cheese align!
That is the context against which to judge the opinions of people with little (or no!) recent experience of long haul airline flying.
So what's the answer, when Joe public picks their flight and airline PURELY on the price of their ticket, and airlines cut costs to the bone to compete? Oh, and pay their execs massive bonuses of course!!!
Last edited by 4468; 8th Sep 2016 at 15:02.
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So what's the answer, when Joe public picks their flight and airline PURELY on the price of their ticket, and airlines cut costs to the bone to compete? Oh, and pay their execs massive bonuses of course!!!
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Note the captain had approx 7500tt. I wonder how many takeoff and landings he had.
Given that EK is mostly a long haul airline.
Im guessing he had approx 1000 To/ldgs. Half as handling, half as non handling.
So approx 500 handling TO/LDGs.
This was probably his first real G/A,outside of the sim.
If this is reasonable speculation was the captain experienced enough?.
Given that EK is mostly a long haul airline.
Im guessing he had approx 1000 To/ldgs. Half as handling, half as non handling.
So approx 500 handling TO/LDGs.
This was probably his first real G/A,outside of the sim.
If this is reasonable speculation was the captain experienced enough?.
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There is no mention of a bounce in the report. They got an overshoot shear in the flare, which caused them to float down the runway due to excess IAS (energy). Right gear touched down 1100m from the threshold followed by the left gear, then the 'LONG LANDING' warning, then the problems began.
The subsequent gear up touch down seems to have been more gentle.
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This airplane did not bounce!
Now that the scenario of this long landing followed by a go-around from wheels on the ground is better understood it is very clear that this airplane did not bounce. The crew took the deliberate action to fly away from the ground.
Climbing 85 feet starting at a typical landing speed translates into a loss of approximately 10 knots due to transfer of energy from kinetic to potential. This could well have brought the airplane close to stall.
It would be very interesting to see actual time history data for speed, altitude, and throttle position. Did the crew recognize the lack of power and push the throttles forward before reaching their max G/A altitude of 85 feet? My guess is that they did not and were already headed for their gear up impact when those precious 12 seconds had passed and they finally followed up with the throttles.
Climbing 85 feet starting at a typical landing speed translates into a loss of approximately 10 knots due to transfer of energy from kinetic to potential. This could well have brought the airplane close to stall.
It would be very interesting to see actual time history data for speed, altitude, and throttle position. Did the crew recognize the lack of power and push the throttles forward before reaching their max G/A altitude of 85 feet? My guess is that they did not and were already headed for their gear up impact when those precious 12 seconds had passed and they finally followed up with the throttles.
... the initial 'touch down' caused one of the FA's seat to collapse, all the blinds in one of the cabins dropped closed and some of the cabin oxygen masks dropped...
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How low a descent rate do you claim to be able to achive in a A320 at a fixed speed (speed for max endurence) with both engines out?
Last edited by KenV; 8th Sep 2016 at 19:03.
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There is no such thing as a planned Go Around.