Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
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According to the officials searching / investigating no part of the FDR has been found. I think they know better than Pressy Holly.
Which other sources (exclude journos please) have confirmed what?
Which other sources (exclude journos please) have confirmed what?
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Thanks Leightman 957. I honestly do not know if I would have taken the same break to leave someone I did not know or like alone on the flight deck. I hope I would have, but I am retiring soon, so I guess I will never know.
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Anti-depressants have been found in Lubitz's apartment. Don't know if the names will be published. In case they are, Fluoxetine Hydrochloride, called "Prozac" in the USA is called "Fluctin" in Germany as far as I know.
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The 'cabin crew nanny' idea does have the merit that it makes it more difficult for a pilot to do something surreptitious, or lock the door; also has a 'chum' value for someone in emotional distress. It's also harmless, zero cost and can be implemented overnight. Has to be a good first response to this tragedy.
Unpredictability of Suicides
I lost a dear friend to suicide one Christmas Eve. She was cheerful and ebullient in her last weeks. Those around her had no idea.
I know others who lost dear ones to suicide. It's a devastating surprise to the families.
Far worse are the murder-suicides where children are among the victims. First responders are at risk of suicide (sometimes years later) after coming across such scenes. Any such tragedy you come across is one too many.
A number of these people were under psychiatric care. It's a hazard of the profession that some patients suicide, but the shrinks are usually caught by surprise.
Bottom line -- if the shrinks are incapable of predicting suicide, so are the aviation authorities.
I know others who lost dear ones to suicide. It's a devastating surprise to the families.
Far worse are the murder-suicides where children are among the victims. First responders are at risk of suicide (sometimes years later) after coming across such scenes. Any such tragedy you come across is one too many.
A number of these people were under psychiatric care. It's a hazard of the profession that some patients suicide, but the shrinks are usually caught by surprise.
Bottom line -- if the shrinks are incapable of predicting suicide, so are the aviation authorities.
SSRIs
I posted about this on P93:
"There would seem to be a limited number of items that would qualify as a significant find at the FO's home(s). It's too soon for an analysis of the computer content and no suicide note was found.
My guess is that they've found anti-depressants. One of the main questions that doctors ask patients who are commencing a course of SSRIs (Prozac etc) is whether they are experiencing any suicidal feelings.
One of the reported side-effects of SSRIs is suicidal impulses (obviously only in a limited - but statistically significant - number of cases).
That would fit the evidence so far released.
Another poster denied that there is any evidence for this being generally the case with SSRIs however GPs are still alert to the problem as far as I'm aware.
"There would seem to be a limited number of items that would qualify as a significant find at the FO's home(s). It's too soon for an analysis of the computer content and no suicide note was found.
My guess is that they've found anti-depressants. One of the main questions that doctors ask patients who are commencing a course of SSRIs (Prozac etc) is whether they are experiencing any suicidal feelings.
One of the reported side-effects of SSRIs is suicidal impulses (obviously only in a limited - but statistically significant - number of cases).
That would fit the evidence so far released.
Another poster denied that there is any evidence for this being generally the case with SSRIs however GPs are still alert to the problem as far as I'm aware.
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well, I never mentioned dispute, because the Pilots actually sign a contract when being hired and are well aware of their salary.
what I was referring to, and maybe not clear enough, was that the pilot salary in general is not very much and as a result of this low pay, the industry is losing out on potential great candidates who will look elsewhere for better paying jobs. This leaves a shortage of qualified pilots which the larger better paying airlines will select the best available leaving those that did not get on with a higher paying carrier, to settle for next best which may be a LCC.
I was hoping the readers of my post were able to understand that and use their critical thinking skills because it is quite obvious to a reasonably intelligent person that low salary alone will not cause a plane crash but is a contributing factor as additional stress...
what I was referring to, and maybe not clear enough, was that the pilot salary in general is not very much and as a result of this low pay, the industry is losing out on potential great candidates who will look elsewhere for better paying jobs. This leaves a shortage of qualified pilots which the larger better paying airlines will select the best available leaving those that did not get on with a higher paying carrier, to settle for next best which may be a LCC.
I was hoping the readers of my post were able to understand that and use their critical thinking skills because it is quite obvious to a reasonably intelligent person that low salary alone will not cause a plane crash but is a contributing factor as additional stress...
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Types of suidical ideation....
The main type of suicidal ideation is one thing and often treated quite well with medication under the auscpices of an experienced GP or Psych specialist.
Most suicidal ideation is 'inwardly' expressed.....however there is a type that relates to more than just internal suicide ideation ans becomes 'exogenous' and relates to others. This type is often related of 'Schizoactive' personaily disorders and Schizophrenia-types also.
We are all prone to a possible 'psychosis' on day based on our personality issues ans lifestyle/background.
I deal with all manner of these issues daily and have done for the last 20yrs.
We can only begin to understand what went wrong in this case. I have many times advised to 'ground'/de-roster pilots for many reasons over the years.
Pilots work in a very unusual set of circumstances compared to most. Slight hypoxia at altitude, especially on longer-haul and also sometimes very limited rest periods.
Most suicidal ideation is 'inwardly' expressed.....however there is a type that relates to more than just internal suicide ideation ans becomes 'exogenous' and relates to others. This type is often related of 'Schizoactive' personaily disorders and Schizophrenia-types also.
We are all prone to a possible 'psychosis' on day based on our personality issues ans lifestyle/background.
I deal with all manner of these issues daily and have done for the last 20yrs.
We can only begin to understand what went wrong in this case. I have many times advised to 'ground'/de-roster pilots for many reasons over the years.
Pilots work in a very unusual set of circumstances compared to most. Slight hypoxia at altitude, especially on longer-haul and also sometimes very limited rest periods.
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Medical assessment/information sharing vs German employment law
This tragic incident would probably not have happened in the first place IF there were not such nonsensical privacy law or the employment law in Germany. Under German employment law it was the responsibility of an employee to inform an employer if they were deemed unfit to work. An employer(DLH/GWI in this case) do not have the right to ask for medical information from any employee. It is their responsibility to tell their superior, to tell their employer if they are sick. Even doctors could not step in as the data would be protected. And YES, there is a motivation to lie about health issues to an employer!
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Not covered by the SARPs, but still related to the regulatory, policy & legal issues
This horrendous tragedy and senseless loss of life, and damage to so many utterly blameless loved ones, must, simply must become a source of motivation for all parties (individuals, organizations, States) involved in the apparatus of contemporary global civil aviation to "get cracking" and define, and solve, problems now brought into starker relief.
But beyond this truism - and I know, certainly, ICAO is a process on top of another process on top of several more - there is something else dramatically calling out for attention here. Post after post, over many dozens of pages, want to reach the subject of suicide. If the reported facts hold up, once the civil AND criminal investigations are completed, the FO did take his own life. But it is a dishonor to the memories of the crash victims and their families to contextualize the immoral conduct at issue here as a "suicide" rather than as a mass murder in which the villain also took his own life (again, based on the information to date). Even if mentally ill, which is far from known at this juncture, morality still attaches and applies.
For perspective, those who want to pontificate about suicidal impulses and actions, or even just want to discuss it, have a look at J.D. Salinger's cryptic short story, "A Perfect Day for Bananafish" - suicide is hardly the big mystery so many want to make it out to be.
I don't have any draft revised SARPs in my pocket, no I don't. But this air crash disaster is a watershed event, not quite on the scale of four aircraft turned into air-to-ground missiles, but just one, or at most two, rungs down the ladder.
But beyond this truism - and I know, certainly, ICAO is a process on top of another process on top of several more - there is something else dramatically calling out for attention here. Post after post, over many dozens of pages, want to reach the subject of suicide. If the reported facts hold up, once the civil AND criminal investigations are completed, the FO did take his own life. But it is a dishonor to the memories of the crash victims and their families to contextualize the immoral conduct at issue here as a "suicide" rather than as a mass murder in which the villain also took his own life (again, based on the information to date). Even if mentally ill, which is far from known at this juncture, morality still attaches and applies.
For perspective, those who want to pontificate about suicidal impulses and actions, or even just want to discuss it, have a look at J.D. Salinger's cryptic short story, "A Perfect Day for Bananafish" - suicide is hardly the big mystery so many want to make it out to be.
I don't have any draft revised SARPs in my pocket, no I don't. But this air crash disaster is a watershed event, not quite on the scale of four aircraft turned into air-to-ground missiles, but just one, or at most two, rungs down the ladder.
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Some fighter airplanes have software that prevents an inadvertent crash into terrain. Not real new stuff.
Keep in mind, though, the fighter pilot does not want to die in a CFIT. He has a distracting mission though. Once he returns to base, his purpose is to make a safe approach and landing.
However, if he decides to kill himself on short final, he will succeed.
Same for any airliner.
Keep in mind, though, the fighter pilot does not want to die in a CFIT. He has a distracting mission though. Once he returns to base, his purpose is to make a safe approach and landing.
However, if he decides to kill himself on short final, he will succeed.
Same for any airliner.
The 'industry' did not create this guy
Utter nonsense
This guy created this guy
Blaming everything but this guy
The industry
The pay
The security system
The process
Etc
This guy is solely responsible for this
Period
What is scary is pilots are trying to make excuses or transfer responsibility
To justify these actions
Very disturbing
This has happened a few times out of millions and millions of flights involving 100's of 1000's of pilots
This has nothing to do with aviation
The occupation just made it easier and more catastrophic
Utter nonsense
This guy created this guy
Blaming everything but this guy
The industry
The pay
The security system
The process
Etc
This guy is solely responsible for this
Period
What is scary is pilots are trying to make excuses or transfer responsibility
To justify these actions
Very disturbing
This has happened a few times out of millions and millions of flights involving 100's of 1000's of pilots
This has nothing to do with aviation
The occupation just made it easier and more catastrophic
I expect a right pillaging for taking this position, but being in a nation full of drama queens, some of whom I deal with in the workplace, generation X has been succeeded by what I have heard called "generation whine" and "generation Y" and "generation Why is the world so hard?"
With change in culture and tech comes cost. It is sometimes hidden, it is sometimes very obvious. Back in the 70's, a guy named Toffler called it "future shock." I suggest that those of us from previous generations may be experiencing future shock in terms of dealing with the current generation of young adults. Consider what that does to the CRM challenge?
We only share some common cultural points of reference. Those we don't is where the frustration lies ... and likewise, my father who grew up poor in the Great Depression only shares some, not all, cultural points of reference with me and my siblings.
I hate to say this, but expect more of this crap, not less, in terms of the "it's all about me" attitude and how that plays out when people get into stress conditions. I say this realizing that I don't know this guy from Adam, and could be utterly wrong about what was going on inside his head.
Flame me if you must, but I thought I'd toss this out there. My experiences with young adults in the past ten years has been strange, to say the least, in part because I can only partly identify with their concerns and world view. It isn't the same as mine was, but it is similar. It's in the differences that we can sometimes be blind to their emotional needs and motivations.
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After investigating the route which they took out of Barcelona, I have deduced that the airways they would have planned from LEBL to EDDL is via UN870 and UT853/T853.
The turning points along these airways, I assume are LEBL - DIBER SOSUR ROTIS MAXIR LUSOL IRMAR MOLUS PENDU IXILU GIVOR SORAL DIK ARCKY NOR - EDDL
Of course 4U 9525 never got any further than MAXIR, but it is after the waypoint ROTIS that interests me.
The track from ROTIS to MAXIR is 043. If this was infact in the FMGS flight plan, and the aircraft was in managed NAV mode for lateral navigation when it crashed, then it would have stayed on this track during its descent.
But if you look at the track from FD24, it's final track was actually 026. That is, it turned 17 degrees to the left from its assumed FMGS flight plan track, that's if the airways they intended to take is the one I have above.
This turn happened before top of descent (according to FD24 raw data published elsewhere). Wouldn't such a turn off track (pull selected mode) be consistent with memory item procedures for an emergency descent?
The turning points along these airways, I assume are LEBL - DIBER SOSUR ROTIS MAXIR LUSOL IRMAR MOLUS PENDU IXILU GIVOR SORAL DIK ARCKY NOR - EDDL
Of course 4U 9525 never got any further than MAXIR, but it is after the waypoint ROTIS that interests me.
The track from ROTIS to MAXIR is 043. If this was infact in the FMGS flight plan, and the aircraft was in managed NAV mode for lateral navigation when it crashed, then it would have stayed on this track during its descent.
But if you look at the track from FD24, it's final track was actually 026. That is, it turned 17 degrees to the left from its assumed FMGS flight plan track, that's if the airways they intended to take is the one I have above.
This turn happened before top of descent (according to FD24 raw data published elsewhere). Wouldn't such a turn off track (pull selected mode) be consistent with memory item procedures for an emergency descent?
Does it really matter? The guy took the plane into the ground using the automatics he was trained to use. We are all vulnerable to the calculated actions of those we rely on. No need to invoke spectres of evil, human beings all have weakness's.
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Have to say this but it will never happen.The best way out of this dilemma would be the return of the third pilot.
The third pilot was a "roadblock" on the route from the cockpit door to the pilots and the controls.
The inclusion of a third pilot means that there would never be less than two pilots on the flight deck.
Pilots work at 25% of their maximum capacity most of the time, 95% of capacity some of the time and on occasions, when things go wrong, at 125% of their capacity. The third pilot dropped that 125% back to 95% and made the whole operation safer.
The third pilot had a 3D view of everything the pilots were doing and what they were seeing on the instruments, a much better view than the pilots had of each other. The third pilot was often the first person to detect an incipient problem.
Somehow, having a third pilot on the flight deck moderated any opinions and actions of the two pilots, a stabilizing influence.
Incidentally the third pilot increased the number of new jokes on the flight deck by 33%
The third pilot was a "roadblock" on the route from the cockpit door to the pilots and the controls.
The inclusion of a third pilot means that there would never be less than two pilots on the flight deck.
Pilots work at 25% of their maximum capacity most of the time, 95% of capacity some of the time and on occasions, when things go wrong, at 125% of their capacity. The third pilot dropped that 125% back to 95% and made the whole operation safer.
The third pilot had a 3D view of everything the pilots were doing and what they were seeing on the instruments, a much better view than the pilots had of each other. The third pilot was often the first person to detect an incipient problem.
Somehow, having a third pilot on the flight deck moderated any opinions and actions of the two pilots, a stabilizing influence.
Incidentally the third pilot increased the number of new jokes on the flight deck by 33%
As a passenger of many years standing as I'm an old fart, i've NEVER been comfortable with the 2 pilot arrangement and removal of the flight engineer. You don't need to be a pilot or psychiatrist or something to realise this, it's simply counter-intuative.
There may be some good that comes out of this tragedy, if only if it draws people's attention to the flawed idea of having a cabin attendant as a '3rd person'. How fundamentally flawed is this? So, we have all these safeguards to prevent 'terrorists' doing mischief but allow them to become cabin crew with possible access to an axe behind a single pilot's napper? It's a quick (and cheap) fix, but in my view risks / may cause a clearly discernible 'unintended consequence'. If we go down the one person in the cockpit route then in reverse order of preference it has to be: - 1) Senior flight crew / Purser only; 2) pilots able to access toilet facilities without leaving the flight deck; 3) revert to a 3 pilot flight deck. The last is by a country mile the best alternative but may be the most expensive.
I'd just like to address those posters shouting about costs and the public's demand for 'cheap' tickets. The public doesn't demand cheap tickets. (most of) the public want the cheapest fares available. Should I ever be offered the possibility of flying for a few dollars less on a plane with less stringent safety requirements I know what I would do... I'd WILLINGLY pay extra to travel with a 3 man crew up front, every time, no question.
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I thought this was a forum for professional pilots? If you understood the implications of what I posted, then yes it does matter.
training wheels, if I read your intent correctly, you are addressing the potential of a bad timing event wherein after the Captain headed to the loo, a decompression event, or a perceived one, arose that the CP felt he had to handle. And, sadly, didn't handle it too well. (Or perhaps another kind of malfunction?)
A thought to go along with this: above 25K, but not on O2 while the Captain was away.
Am I following you well enough?
FDR data might provide some insight as to whether this line of inquiry has some data points that align ... so those who are voicing frustration with all of this public discussion with no FDR data known to be available are asking a valid question: why the early conclusion?
A thought to go along with this: above 25K, but not on O2 while the Captain was away.
Am I following you well enough?
FDR data might provide some insight as to whether this line of inquiry has some data points that align ... so those who are voicing frustration with all of this public discussion with no FDR data known to be available are asking a valid question: why the early conclusion?
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Psychologists say since years the western society is becoming more and more narcistic and sociopathic. The Medias are celebrating these characters, either they are pop stars or politicians. I read Lubitz was obsessed with flying, beeing a pilot. So he had no escape path for his career in mind if he looses his medical?
Perhaps the treating doctors failed to see this coming problem.
I know pilots who started further education during their career just not to be dependent on their medical, business administration or technical stuff for aviation management for example. They even don't need to change their company. I remember one SAR pilot who got trained as mechanic as he loved his unit so much. Just in case he was not fit to fly.
We all have resonable choices not to create a one way dead end road with our careers, especially pilots should think that way, beeing trained to see the wider picture.
Perhaps the treating doctors failed to see this coming problem.
I know pilots who started further education during their career just not to be dependent on their medical, business administration or technical stuff for aviation management for example. They even don't need to change their company. I remember one SAR pilot who got trained as mechanic as he loved his unit so much. Just in case he was not fit to fly.
We all have resonable choices not to create a one way dead end road with our careers, especially pilots should think that way, beeing trained to see the wider picture.