Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
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@No Fly Zone: You say: "To my mind, there is still one critical piece of evidence (in support of the FO's intentional destruction of the aircraft) that I have not seen; some reasonable proof that Lubitz was awake/alert during the last 8-10 minutes of the flight. Some evidence may have been offered, but I have not yet seen it. "
Is the data from the transponder returns showing SEL ALT changing from FL380 to 96 feet whilst the captain was out of the flight deck not indicative of deliberate action on behalf of the only occupant of the locked flight deck? It seems that this data was passed to BEA on the day of the accident so likely included in the assessment of what happened?
Is the data from the transponder returns showing SEL ALT changing from FL380 to 96 feet whilst the captain was out of the flight deck not indicative of deliberate action on behalf of the only occupant of the locked flight deck? It seems that this data was passed to BEA on the day of the accident so likely included in the assessment of what happened?
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Mirage
what did the Mirage pilot see?
He would have come close enough to look into the cockpit. He would have seen enough to know there was no explosive decompression. Perhaps he saw a single pilot and which seat he was in, perhaps looking back at him, it would after all be hard not to stare at a fighter jet moving in close.
whether he saw and what he saw we don't know yet but the authorities do. Reports are filed, film watched. Perhaps this is corroborating what they are hearing on the CVR and giving additional ability to conclude what they are concluding. Perhaps....
He would have come close enough to look into the cockpit. He would have seen enough to know there was no explosive decompression. Perhaps he saw a single pilot and which seat he was in, perhaps looking back at him, it would after all be hard not to stare at a fighter jet moving in close.
whether he saw and what he saw we don't know yet but the authorities do. Reports are filed, film watched. Perhaps this is corroborating what they are hearing on the CVR and giving additional ability to conclude what they are concluding. Perhaps....
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@Dusk2Dawn
Why would anyone - breathing normally - use 8 minutes to commit suicide?
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As others have said I am not convinced two in the cockpit at all times will ultimately be a solution. Using that theory it means bringing in a cabin crew member while one pilot visits the bathroom who will most likely have no idea how to fly an aircraft, all it would take is for the remaining handling pilot to quickly shut off the engines and or electrics and announce you have control while the person who left the flight is locked out.
Having two people in the cockpit at all times further reduces that risk, but clearly won't eliminate it. Nothing can remove all risk at all times.
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BEA is silent while civilian prosecutor is not?
Not sure if this question has been raised, but I am wondering why a civilian prosecutor at this early stage have access to the CVR recording, and furthermore, why is he willing to tell the public about what the CVR contains?
I was of the impression that the CVR is BEA property until the investigation is completed, and that first thereafter a civilian prosecutor can have access to the information, and if needed raise a criminal case against someone.
Bureau d'Enqu๊tes et d'Analyses (BEA) - English Homepage
I was of the impression that there was waterproof doors between the safety investigation and the criminal investigation. Anyone cares to explain?
I was of the impression that the CVR is BEA property until the investigation is completed, and that first thereafter a civilian prosecutor can have access to the information, and if needed raise a criminal case against someone.
Bureau d'Enqu๊tes et d'Analyses (BEA) - English Homepage
I was of the impression that there was waterproof doors between the safety investigation and the criminal investigation. Anyone cares to explain?
Paxing All Over The World
Speaking as one who has dealt with families bereaved by suicide for over 23 years so, briefly ... There is no 'normal'. It is often the case that once a person has made the choice of suicide - they appear much happier and calmer. Families say, "Ten days ago, we thought he'd turned a corner as he was getting back to his usual cheerful self and then ..." I recall one man who visited his parents for the weekend, cleaned the house and mowed the lawn and then hung himself.
Suicide is outside our expectations and so 99.9% of people are not looking for it and do not see it coming. When they look back at the recent months? Then they can see the path leading to it but it was not visible before.
If this is suicide, could the person have been waiting a week (or more) for the correct opportunity? Yes.
Suicide is outside our expectations and so 99.9% of people are not looking for it and do not see it coming. When they look back at the recent months? Then they can see the path leading to it but it was not visible before.
If this is suicide, could the person have been waiting a week (or more) for the correct opportunity? Yes.
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Someone who has embarked on a suicidal path often feels a sense of peace - they're no longer going to have to deal with the constant emotional pain.
The prosecutor has discounted suicide
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A320-FDR Direct Question(s)
I don't do Airbus and I know nearly nothing about its systems beyond the idea that it generates tons of data and that a Digital FDR can capture up to 1300 discrete measures. A good FDR will obviously capture important flight deck actions such as side stick movements, button pushes and the like. What I'd like to know:
1. Does the A320's D-FDR record door lock and door control actions?
2. If the D-FDR's recording media (a chip?) is not present, does this generate any kind of flight deck alarm or ECAS event?
3. Is a defective/alarmed/INOP D-FDR a MEL-able item; if so, for how long?
4. I'm just asking, NOT suggesting- how long would it take an experienced individual to reach the D-FDR and if possible, can the recording media be removed without generating ECAS alarms.
If, I repeat - IF the D-FDR was INOP and so recognized by the crew prior departure, I wonder if any discussion of same was captured by the CVR.
Lastly, the accident A320 was an older edition airframe and may have been equipped with an earlier generation, less capable FDR. Does anyone know - for certain, what was flying on this airplane?
I refuse to speculate, but will ask questions. Accurate answers to these questions are necessary before I can hope to understand WTF happened on Tuesday. For all lost, including the FO, RIP. -NFZ
1. Does the A320's D-FDR record door lock and door control actions?
2. If the D-FDR's recording media (a chip?) is not present, does this generate any kind of flight deck alarm or ECAS event?
3. Is a defective/alarmed/INOP D-FDR a MEL-able item; if so, for how long?
4. I'm just asking, NOT suggesting- how long would it take an experienced individual to reach the D-FDR and if possible, can the recording media be removed without generating ECAS alarms.
If, I repeat - IF the D-FDR was INOP and so recognized by the crew prior departure, I wonder if any discussion of same was captured by the CVR.
Lastly, the accident A320 was an older edition airframe and may have been equipped with an earlier generation, less capable FDR. Does anyone know - for certain, what was flying on this airplane?
I refuse to speculate, but will ask questions. Accurate answers to these questions are necessary before I can hope to understand WTF happened on Tuesday. For all lost, including the FO, RIP. -NFZ
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too early to jump to conclusion ?
German Pilots Cast Doubt on Blaming of Co-Pilot for Crash : Germanwings: Pilots Cast Doubt on Blaming of Co-Pilot for Crash
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Also, how close was the Frenchy AF to intercept? They'll likely not release that info for security reasons, but surely they would have to be considering a 9.11 type incident and protocol for a shoot down. And... how close to that decision were they?
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If the keypad is used to enter the flight deck, the door WILL OPEN after a predetermined time 5-30sec UNLESS someone physically LOCKS the door from INSIDE the cabin.
If the F/O was simply incapacitated, then this tragedy would in all probability not have happened.
If the F/O was simply incapacitated, then this tragedy would in all probability not have happened.
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The prosecutor has not discounted suicide. He did not want to call it suicide and even added that one reason for not wanting to call it suicide was that the FO took another 149 people with him. He was keeping his options open.
We do not know yet if it was suicide in the sense of someone so desperate he only thinks and succeeds in taking his own life. But he is dead and so are 149 others.
We do not know yet if it was suicide in the sense of someone so desperate he only thinks and succeeds in taking his own life. But he is dead and so are 149 others.
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A reliable team?
I flew the A320 out of LHR for 10 years for a major UK carrier.
I was always amazed at the efficiency of a crew two pilots operating closely together, perhaps for the first time. There was one time before 9/11 when an interested passenger joined us on the flight deck and after a while asked us how long we'd flown together? He was astonished at my reply that this was the first time. This was a testament to the quality of training in my airline.
Importantly, we'd both come from a variety of immediate backgrounds i.e. staid family life, or bust-up with a girl friend, or major financial worries, yet we always without fail slotted into our roles as pilots and part of a responsible team.
Consider all other methods of transport trains, busses only one person in control. Then ships many but the Captain has overall authority (Costa Concordia). Large passenger aircraft always have TWO pilots until one leaves the flight deck.
There's the weak link!...
I was always amazed at the efficiency of a crew two pilots operating closely together, perhaps for the first time. There was one time before 9/11 when an interested passenger joined us on the flight deck and after a while asked us how long we'd flown together? He was astonished at my reply that this was the first time. This was a testament to the quality of training in my airline.
Importantly, we'd both come from a variety of immediate backgrounds i.e. staid family life, or bust-up with a girl friend, or major financial worries, yet we always without fail slotted into our roles as pilots and part of a responsible team.
Consider all other methods of transport trains, busses only one person in control. Then ships many but the Captain has overall authority (Costa Concordia). Large passenger aircraft always have TWO pilots until one leaves the flight deck.
There's the weak link!...
Originally Posted by PACE
AirScotia
The prosecutor has discounted suicide
The prosecutor has discounted suicide
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Medication
I would like to know what medications the co-pilot was taking. For instance, was the co-pilot trying to quit smoking? One of the published side effects of the anti-smoking drug Chantix is "Suicidal thoughts or actions" (Also stated is their television advertisements). Some of the modern anti-depressants, such as Prozac can cause people to become both homicidal and suicidal. My main source is my father, a Pharmacist with over 60 years experience dispensing psychotropic drugs. Unfortunately in this case individual "Privacy" may trump public health. When a mass murder happens here in the USA, even when the killer is a known paranoid schizophrenic, what medications they were taking at the time of the mass murder, are never published, because of privacy (or drug company lobbyists), so whatever medications involved escape the further scrutiny they deserve.
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Good comments from IFALPA.
The current mess of early conclusions is due to the French senior military divulging strictly confidential information to NYT. It led to unavoidable scrambling by the investigators to come out with a statement. The French prosecutor was much more cautious then he is now alleged to have been, probably never knew what hit him. He was also being naive to the point of being willing to speak in English, a language he does not speak well at all.
But it is what it is, the ghost is out of the bottle.
"The International Federal of Airline Pilots Associations, or IFALPA, condemned the leaks of the cockpit voice recorder or CVR on Thurdsay, saying that it violated long-established practices after plane crashes, where details are kept confidential until the investigation is complete. “Leaks of this nature greatly harm flight safety since they invite ill-informed speculation from the media and general public and discourage cooperation with investigators in future accidents,” said a statement from the Montreal-based organization. “The sole purpose of a CVR is to aid investigators… not to apportion blame.”
The current mess of early conclusions is due to the French senior military divulging strictly confidential information to NYT. It led to unavoidable scrambling by the investigators to come out with a statement. The French prosecutor was much more cautious then he is now alleged to have been, probably never knew what hit him. He was also being naive to the point of being willing to speak in English, a language he does not speak well at all.
But it is what it is, the ghost is out of the bottle.
"The International Federal of Airline Pilots Associations, or IFALPA, condemned the leaks of the cockpit voice recorder or CVR on Thurdsay, saying that it violated long-established practices after plane crashes, where details are kept confidential until the investigation is complete. “Leaks of this nature greatly harm flight safety since they invite ill-informed speculation from the media and general public and discourage cooperation with investigators in future accidents,” said a statement from the Montreal-based organization. “The sole purpose of a CVR is to aid investigators… not to apportion blame.”
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Just wondering why in this day and age there aren't video cameras on the flightdeck ? HD cameras and digital storage that can store weeks of video cost pennies. We shouldn't have to be relying on people trying to work out what's going on from audio alone.
I wonder if this post will survive....
I wonder if this post will survive....
anengineer:
1. Camera would not have stopped this tragic loss of life.
2. I don't see the point of your question.
Based on what a great many airline pilots report, some of whom are friends of mine for decades, the cultural relationship between management and workforce in airlines is already toxic, or close to it.
What you suggest would make that set of working condition worses, not better.
Mods, if this line of discussion belongs in another thread, please move us and it.
1. Camera would not have stopped this tragic loss of life.
2. I don't see the point of your question.
Based on what a great many airline pilots report, some of whom are friends of mine for decades, the cultural relationship between management and workforce in airlines is already toxic, or close to it.
What you suggest would make that set of working condition worses, not better.
Mods, if this line of discussion belongs in another thread, please move us and it.
not convinced two in the cockpit at all times will ultimately be a solution. Using that theory it means bringing in a cabin crew member while one pilot visits the bathroom who will most likely have no idea how to fly an aircraft,
